TL: The War of Dogger Bank, or the Anglo-Russian War - Version 2

A quesion that IMHO would apply to naval strategy and especially tactics of EVERY seagoing nation.

Here's one: Decisive Battle, while still considered a fundamental pillar of naval doctrine, never becomes the be all and end all of naval doctrine.

And here's another: since Japan never smashed Russia all but on her own, her ego doesn't get swollen, and given their cooperation with Britain in this (and explicitly enjoying a booming Anglophilia in the process), gets pulled even further into the British sphere of influence.
 
I don't foresee this independent Poland to live long for now. Germany and Austro-Hungary have every reason to see it smothered in its crib, given that they own areas with heavily populated by Poles on account of taking them from Poland back in 18th century, and that kind of thing could well lead to those areas trying to break away and joining independent Poland. And for Asutro-Hungarians especially, they can't allow that, because then every minority in their empire will want something similar.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I don't foresee this independent Poland to live long for now. Germany and Austro-Hungary have every reason to see it smothered in its crib, given that they own areas with heavily populated by Poles on account of taking them from Poland back in 18th century, and that kind of thing could well lead to those areas trying to break away and joining independent Poland. And for Asutro-Hungarians especially, they can't allow that, because then every minority in their empire will want something similar.
Well, this might count for A-H more than for Germany, as the german empire doesn't have a polish populated stately construct as A-H had in the Kingdom of galicia and Lodomeria with its own 'capital', parliament and civil administration.

For Germany with its much smaller number of ... 'problematic' poles an independant Poland might even become kind of a 'expulsion-dump' for unwanted ... Poles.
 
Well, this might count for A-H more than for Germany, as the german empire doesn't have a polish populated stately construct as A-H had in the Kingdom of galicia and Lodomeria with its own 'capital', parliament and civil administration.

For Germany with its much smaller number of ... 'problematic' poles an independant Poland might even become kind of a 'expulsion-dump' for unwanted ... Poles.
Except that German province of Posen is basically historical core of Poland. Quite literal, in fact, since it was basically from it that the country was born, so if independent Poland is allowed to persist, you can bet that both, Poles still in the province as well as Poland would be doing everything they can to weaken Germany enough to be able to take it back.

In fact OTL was the only situation that was good enough for Poland to come back and stay independent, since all three of its partitioners were too wrecked and too weak to do anything abut its resurgence, which is not a situation in this timeline. So it will probably come down in history as yet another resurgence and part of the trend of Poles rising every 30-40 years, trying to take their country back only to be beaten down.
 
One thing's for certain; the great powers have a burning powder keg on their hands.
I don't foresee this independent Poland to live long for now. Germany and Austro-Hungary have every reason to see it smothered in its crib, given that they own areas with heavily populated by Poles on account of taking them from Poland back in 18th century, and that kind of thing could well lead to those areas trying to break away and joining independent Poland. And for Asutro-Hungarians especially, they can't allow that, because then every minority in their empire will want something similar.

Well, this might count for A-H more than for Germany, as the german empire doesn't have a polish populated stately construct as A-H had in the Kingdom of galicia and Lodomeria with its own 'capital', parliament and civil administration.

For Germany with its much smaller number of ... 'problematic' poles an independant Poland might even become kind of a 'expulsion-dump' for unwanted ... Poles.

Except that German province of Posen is basically historical core of Poland. Quite literal, in fact, since it was basically from it that the country was born, so if independent Poland is allowed to persist, you can bet that both, Poles still in the province as well as Poland would be doing everything they can to weaken Germany enough to be able to take it back.

In fact OTL was the only situation that was good enough for Poland to come back and stay independent, since all three of its partitioners were too wrecked and too weak to do anything abut its resurgence, which is not a situation in this timeline. So it will probably come down in history as yet another resurgence and part of the trend of Poles rising every 30-40 years, trying to take their country back only to be beaten down.
I fully agree that Germany and A-H cannot tolerate an independent Poland; the question is how will the other Great Powers react?

BTW any chance of a map showing what areas of Russia are controlled by which factions? Or at least a list?
 

Anchises

Banned
The Germans would be best to pressure Poland with the prospect of a military intervention to sign a favorable alliance treaty with them and allow a Hohenzollern Prince to be crowned King.

Best course for the Germans would be to balkanize Eastern Europe and to create a Russian satellite.

The Russian nobility has little opportunities at this point. They can hope to be restored in Russia proper, under the condition of a permanent alliance and a pro-German commercial treaty until 1999.

Poland, the Baltic States, parts of the Ukraine and other areas will be torn away. Russia is in no condition to keep them under the jackboot and neither Germany nor A-H want a gigantic Russian Empire.

Well, this might count for A-H more than for Germany, as the german empire doesn't have a polish populated stately construct as A-H had in the Kingdom of galicia and Lodomeria with its own 'capital', parliament and civil administration.

For Germany with its much smaller number of ... 'problematic' poles an independant Poland might even become kind of a 'expulsion-dump' for unwanted ... Poles.

I agree. Germany in 1905 won't succumb to the same "Drang nach Osten" that plagued them IOTLs WW1. Priority nr. 1 is going to be a controllable Russian Empire and stabilizing A-H.

Franz-Joseph is a problem, serious reform with him at the helm is unlikely.

I think a likely "muddle through" solution would be:

1) A semi-independent Poland under a Habsburg king. This Poland is not a part of A-H but deeply involved in Galicia. Poland props up the Polish aristocracy in Galicia.

2) A semi-independent Ukraine (?) under a Habsburg ruler. A dumping ground for troublesome Galicians.

3) The Baltic States will be subjected to attempts of Germanification, using the German aristocracy.

4) Germany is probably going to attempt to reduce the number of Polish citizens in the Empire, by "encouraging" immigration to the new Polish state.
 
I agree. Germany in 1905 won't succumb to the same "Drang nach Osten" that plagued them IOTLs WW1. Priority nr. 1 is going to be a controllable Russian Empire and stabilizing A-H.

Franz-Joseph is a problem, serious reform with him at the helm is unlikely.

.

A-H's biggest issue is not just Franz-Joseph, but Franz Ferdinand. He was simply too conservative for serious reform and rather focus on breaking up the Hungarian power within the Empire, and a return to neo-absolutism. If the Great War hadn't broken out the way it did over his assassination, the Serbs would have done Austria-Hungary a favor in fact!
 

Anchises

Banned
A-H's biggest issue is not just Franz-Joseph, but Franz Ferdinand. He was simply too conservative for serious reform and rather focus on breaking up the Hungarian power within the Empire, and a return to neo-absolutism. If the Great War hadn't broken out the way it did over his assassination, the Serbs would have done Austria-Hungary a favor in fact!

I am not a F-F fan boy but at least he was willing to try something. The absolute stagnation under F-J was the real death sentence for A-H. F-F never even got the chance to actually rule, F-J oversaw the decay of A-H for 68 years.

If F-J dies in 1905 ITTL, A-H would fare much better.
 
I am not a F-F fan boy but at least he was willing to try something. The absolute stagnation under F-J was the real death sentence for A-H. F-F never even got the chance to actually rule, F-J oversaw the decay of A-H for 68 years.

If F-J dies in 1905 ITTL, A-H would fare much better.

Eh, true. F-J could always died in say 1909. (He got pneumonia and was not expected to survive.) From what I read about him, he push towards universal male suffrage (If only to deal with the landed aristocracy in Hungary.) and push for a third crown to counter the Hungarians. (Say Croatia, or Bohemia.) The Army will get the proper funding it needs while the Navy gets the four dreadnoughts, and the two battlecruisers that were planned.

Of course, his kids won't be able to take power so...
 
Best course for the Germans would be to balkanize Eastern Europe and to create a Russian satellite.

The Russian nobility has little opportunities at this point. They can hope to be restored in Russia proper, under the condition of a permanent alliance and a pro-German commercial treaty until 1999.

Poland, the Baltic States, parts of the Ukraine and other areas will be torn away. Russia is in no condition to keep them under the jackboot and neither Germany nor A-H want a gigantic Russian Empire.



I agree. Germany in 1905 won't succumb to the same "Drang nach Osten" that plagued them IOTLs WW1. Priority nr. 1 is going to be a controllable Russian Empire and stabilizing A-H.

Franz-Joseph is a problem, serious reform with him at the helm is unlikely.

I think a likely "muddle through" solution would be:

1) A semi-independent Poland under a Habsburg king. This Poland is not a part of A-H but deeply involved in Galicia. Poland props up the Polish aristocracy in Galicia.

2) A semi-independent Ukraine (?) under a Habsburg ruler. A dumping ground for troublesome Galicians.

3) The Baltic States will be subjected to attempts of Germanification, using the German aristocracy.

4) Germany is probably going to attempt to reduce the number of Polish citizens in the Empire, by "encouraging" immigration to the new Polish state.
Habsburg-Romanian relations might be a good template here. To my knowledge Romania had relative good relations with the Habsburg in the decades before WW1, even though Romania's co=ethnics were on the other side of the border in Transylvania waiting to be "liberated" by Bucharest. If the new state have relatively Germanophile kings, then this should be a sustainable arrangement.

There are Azeris in an independent Azerbaijan and a large Azeri population across the border in Iran, but Azeri separatism against Tehran is pretty much nonexistent.
 
Map of Europe August 1905
Nice update @WarlordGandhi :)

However ... as usual some ... nitpicking questions :winkytongue:

What happened to the franco-russian alliance of 1894 ?
How was the russian reaction to the french ... desinterest in its ally being beaten by the brits ?
Also the french position against the Russia 'attacking' Poland ?
And wouldn't Finland and the Ukraine also have to be seen as 'agressors' against Russia nibbling on its territory (though not named in the wordings of the alliance) ?

With the Romanows going to Berlin instead of Paris ... might be a 'sign' already ?

Also :
Who will be seen by the 'international community' as the 'successor' in the russian goverments legal rights and obligations internationally ? (assets as well as debts i.e. ...)

Also :
It looks a wee bit surreal to me, that at the Algericas-Conference ITTL Russia won't be a 'theme' with all these Great or Big or formerly Big (Spain) Powers sitting on a table together.
France dishonoured the alliance, as honouring it would have brought France into a war with Great Britain, which would have ended badly for France. Obviously the Russians felt understandably betrayed but there was nothing they could really do.

All I will say now is that noone recognises the Soviet Republic

Algeciras Conference will address this soon
One thing's for certain; the great powers have a burning powder keg on their hands.




I fully agree that Germany and A-H cannot tolerate an independent Poland; the question is how will the other Great Powers react?

BTW any chance of a map showing what areas of Russia are controlled by which factions? Or at least a list?

If you guys want me to make a map of the situation just comment and I will do so, just like right here
Here is the situation in Europe August of 1905
August 1905.PNG
 
France dishonoured the alliance, as honouring it would have brought France into a war with Great Britain, which would have ended badly for France. Obviously the Russians felt understandably betrayed but there was nothing they could really do.

All I will say now is that noone recognises the Soviet Republic

Algeciras Conference will address this soon


If you guys want me to make a map of the situation just comment and I will do so, just like right here
Here is the situation in Europe August of 1905
View attachment 419268
AT the risk of nitpicking 'Great Britain' refers only to the easterly of the two main British Isles; the country would have been the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland). A minor detail but one that's rather important in UKian politics in the period (the Second Irish Home Rule Bill of 1893, the 'Liberal landslide' in the [OTL] 1906 election, et cetera).

BTW, have you decided on the results of the UK election in 1906? How has the Angle-Russian war effected the general unpopularity of the Conservative government?
 
Update!

1905 Part 2 - Good God what have we done

July: Election of the Peoples Duma occurs. Gerrymandering results in the Mensheviks/Left SR coalition achieving absolute control of the Peoples Duma. Martov is elected as Prime Commissar of the Soviet Republic of Russia, with Trotsky elected Commissar of War, and Maria Spiridonova elected Commissar of the Peasantry. The Soviet Guard is proclaimed the military of the Soviet Republic. St. Petersburg is renamed Petrograd.

July: Beginning of the Russian Civil War: Conservative and Tsarist forces declare the results of the election to be fraudulent. Tsarist governments are declared in Siberia, while Right SRs and other conservatives side with the Cossacks who have already revolted against the new government in the Kuban. An uprising by reactionary army generals also occurs in White Russia. The Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin seize control of several areas in Moscow, declaring the new government to be against the will of the workers

July: Lithuanian separatists have cleared Lithuania of Russian troops and now advance to the Daugava River to establish an effective defensive line along the river

July: Germany and Austria Hungary covertly pledge support for Tsarist forces in Central Asia in return for secret agreements for Russia to keep out of the Balkans once they retake power

July: The Japanese move into Outer Manchuria without resistance on the pretext of protecting shipping in the area

July: Battle of Brest: Polish militias take Brest from shattered Russian units. There is a mass defection to conservative forces in White Russia

August: Tsarist forces in Yekaterinburg declare Grand Duke Michael as the legitimate Tsar Michael II. Due to German backing of these Tsarist Forces, Kaiser Wilhelm II pressures Nicholas II to quietly abdicate his throne in favour of Tsar Michael II to ensure that all Tsarist forces unite behind Michael.

August: The Bolshevik revolt is crushed by Soviet Guards led by Trotsky. Lenin is captured and imprisoned, awaiting trial.

August: The Army of White Russia, led by Victor Sakharov and 90,000 men strong attack in the direction of Smolensk, using Minsk as a staging area

August: 100,000 Soviet Guards under Aleksei Baiov begin organising in Kharkov, with orders to launch a campaign to take back Kiev and crush the Ukrainian insurgency

August: The Algeciras Conference occurs. Germany attempts to obtain international prestige by gaining multiple concessions from France to show their power. The conference quickly splits into two blocs, with Austria-Hungary backing Germany, and Great Britain, Spain and the United States backing France. Italy initially abstains, but backs France after the French agree to give Italy a free hand in Libya. The Japanese observers are pro-French as well

August: Cossack and Conservative armies numbering 70,000 strong under Alexander von Kaulbars begin establishing a defence along the line of Tsaritsyn to Rostov, believing an attack by Soviet Guards to be imminent. Cossacks begin conducting raids to the north

August: Poland, having driven Russian forces out of Congress Poland declares full independence. A transitionary government led by Jozef Pilsudski is formed in Warsaw. However, alarmed by the prospect of an independent Polish state on their border, Germany and Austria-Hungary begin amassing troops on the border for a planned armed intervention to begin in early September

August: Finnish forces establish a perimeter around the north of Petrograd, but do not advance on the city itself

Next: 1905 Part 3 Red, White and Black
Italy will demand more than Libya. That's what they got OTL but TTL they're going to demand Tunisia as well. No way they let an isolated France take Morocco so easily.
 
Italy will demand more than Libya. That's what they got OTL but TTL they're going to demand Tunisia as well. No way they let an isolated France take Morocco so easily.

This UK may actually support France in this. Good way to rebuild relations with the UK's preferred Continental Ally (As the 2nd Land power.)

Italy can be mollified/bought off with promises of support for Balkan ambitions (Serbia is looking suspiciously patronless.)
 
This UK may actually support France in this. Good way to rebuild relations with the UK's preferred Continental Ally (As the 2nd Land power.)

Italy can be mollified/bought off with promises of support for Balkan ambitions (Serbia is looking suspiciously patronless.)

That's still probably not enough IMO- why give away the farm for free, since an Anti-Austrian Serbia is very likely to seek Italian support no matter what, and in any case the Balkans of 1905 are not the Balkans of 1914; Serbia was in fact closer to Austria at this point in time, whereas Bulgaria was the traditional Russian ally prior to the Balkan Wars. If England backs France to the hilt, then that almost certainly means Italy driftsfurther towards the Triple Alliance out of fear (especially since Germany, if they aren't braindead morons, will be encouraging Italy to take as firm a stance as possible in the Mediterranean at the Agadir Conference).
Like Tunisia, Corsica and Nice were fairly big deals for the nationalists/imperialists (France's annexation of the first is basically is what prompted the Triple Alliance in the first place) and France is looking very vulnerable right now. I'd be utterly shocked if Italy didn't at least try to gain more than just Libya out of the deal. Remember that France is every bit as much a rival for Italy as Austria is, albeit in different theaters.
 
France dishonoured the alliance, as honouring it would have brought France into a war with Great Britain
Not sure what the precise terms of the treaty were, but the fact is the Russians blindly and insanely attacked Britain. Alliances are defence pacts, not suicide pacts.
No dishonour involved. (Not to anyone sane, anyway.)
 
Not sure what the precise terms of the treaty were, but the fact is the Russians blindly and insanely attacked Britain. Alliances are defence pacts, not suicide pacts.
No dishonour involved. (Not to anyone sane, anyway.)

Very interesting and it would be even more so if you spent some time familiarizing yourself with some of the relevant facts. :winkytongue:

Some comments on your scenario:

1. Russia is losing the war pretty much along the same lines as in OTL:
(a) Addition of the 15K British troops to the Japanese forces in Manchuria is pathetic (check size of the forces involved: at Mukden each side had approximately 300K and 1000 guns) and is not counterbalancing arrival of the new Russian troops to the theater.
(b) Earlier destruction of the 2nd Pacific fleet would not make things worse for Russia. Probably they would be better off because at least some ships are managing to escape and being defeated by the British navy is not as shameful as being fully destroyed by the Japanese.
(c) Japan is better off only financially (if the Britain is ready to finance the war) but not too much better in the terms of the troops numbers so Russia may be somewhat harder pressed in the terms of the territorial concessions but not too much so.

2. British naval blockade of Russia as economic factor is a "beauty". :winkytongue: Just few annoying facts:

(a) Russian commercial navy by 1901 amounted to 745 steamships (364,360 tons) and 2,293 sail ships (269,359 tons). Overwhelming majority of the steamers were on the Black & Azov Seas (316 ships, 186,774 tons) and Caspian Sea (261 ships, 119,932 tons). In other words, mostly safe from the British attacks.

(b) In 1901 out of all naval import/export of 18,163K tons 16,265K tons had been carried by the foreign ships while the cargo carried by those under the Russian flag amounted only to 10.4 % (http://istmat.info/node/65). Commercial traffic on the Pacific (the most vulnerable) was much smaller than on any other sea. So unless Britain starts enforcing a complete blockade causing problems to other European states, this part of your grand strategy is not going to work. OTOH, even just few armed fast speed steamships acting as the raiders could cause a considerable damage to the British commercial traffic before they are caught and sunk (as was the case with the German raiders during WWI).

3. Britain was the 3rd biggest investor into Russian economy after Belgium and France. In 1901: 181.5 mln rubles, 110.1 and 92.7, correspondingly with Germany being the remote 4th - 25.2 . What's interesting is that by 1915 Britain became the biggest investor. In other words, Rusophobia or not, there were serious long-term economic interests and investment possibilities which would put some restraint on your "going for broke" scenario. (https://research-journal.org/econom...-i-rossijskoj-federacii-komparativnyj-analiz/)


4. All that separatist/revolutionary stuff is not going to fly by a simple reason: too many regular troops are stationed in the European Russia (Russian problem in the RJW was inability to transport enough troops and ammunition to the Far East, not a general shortage of the troops and material) and there are no meaningful "separatist forces" capable of anything noticeably bigger then few acts of a terrorism. As for the general loss of prestige, rather ironically, after the RJW troops participating in fighting had been sneered upon by their colleagues who remained at home: standard perception was that they were incompetent and corrupt (see for example "50 Years in Service" by the "red" count Ignatieff). So, no, army in general was not compromised in a public opinion or in self-esteem and the navy was not too important branch of service to be a decisive factor.

5. Of course, the British help to the rebelling Poles is a good idea but it is even more problematic in 1905 than it was in 1944: how could it be done for the landlocked territory with Germany actively looking for the Russian alliance? How about looking at the map? :)

6. Blaming Witte is an interesting twist taking into an account the fact that he was on a record protesting the policies which led to the war. Not that firing him from the position of the chairman of the Committee of Ministers would have any practical meaning because this position was a purely decorative one. Basically, in 1903 he was kicked upstairs from the really powerful position of Minister of Finances.

7. Most important outcome of the whole schema: goodbye Russian-French alliance, welcome Russian-German one. Willy tried to sign it in OTL during the RJW but the whole thing failed due to the existing Russian-French treaty. Now, no matter rightly or wrongly, agreement with France is thrown out of the window (an issue of the French loans is "interesting" one). So your scenario most probably means a massive political realignment all the way to the restoration of Dreikaiserbund with France being isolated politically and militarily: its potential alliance with Britain would not be able to prevent it from a speedy defeat on land in the case of a German attack. Germany-Russia-AH are dominating European continent, WWI is impossible and Britain is mostly kept out of the European affairs.
 
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