TL: The War of Dogger Bank, or the Anglo-Russian War - Version 2
- Thread starter WarlordGandhi
- Start date
General Ripper
Banned
The same that have done that before- imperial police, gendarmerie, Okhrana, Imperial Guards, Cossacks etc.
Historically the Imperial Guard units mutinied during the February Revolution. The 'Special Corps of Gendarmes' were as much investigative as troops, probably not sufficient against a large revolutionary force. The Cossacks may not have been available and their deployment to (say) St. Petersburg would be seen by many as provocative.
Against a significant and cohesive defecting military force the Imperialist forces would have a lot of area to protect and relatively few forces to do this with.
Do you guys think that the Mensheviks, after leading the revolution, would rename St. Petersburg to something else? If so, what would some likely names be?
And despite firing on it several hundred times on scored seven hits and one fatality. And one of those hits (guess which ship) was while the Aurora was at anchor[1].
Another was while the ships were at gunnery practice after leaving Madagascar; after not one of the destroyers managed to hit a stationary target tethered to the Aurora Rozhestvensky's battleships bad a go and did manage a single hit...on the cruiser. The torpedo practice was worse.
Really pretty much any insanity could be blamed on the Kamchatka; in addition to firing (ineffectively) on the Aldebaran, Sonntag and Guyane it fired on an (unnamed) merchant ship near Tangier. The ship got lost frequently, experienced engine problems that couldn't be fixed (despite being a repair ship and being crammed with press-ganged mechanics). When leaving Tangier, one of the refuelling stops, it managed to accidentally cut the city's underwater telegraph cable with her anchor, cutting the city off from communications with Europe.
After Madagascar the ship was forbidden to fire; one source says it's guns were disabled.
Communications were terrible, down to troublesome radio equipment, paranoia, ships operating with different code books and (with the Kamchatka) a seemingly monumental level of stupidity; for example they sent (off the Danish coast) "Am Under Attack by Enemy Torpedo Boats" while requesting permission to dump inferior coal overboard. Off Angola it sent "Do you see torpedo boats?" rather than "We are all right now" (it'd again gotten lost in a storm; again).
Even before leaving Tallin harbour the fleet set the tone for the voyage; the fleet flagship Knyaz Suvorov ran aground, one of the cruisers lost it's anchor chain and and one of the escorting torpedo boat destroyers rammed the battleship Oslyaba
[1] At Madagascar, while firing a salute as part of a burial a live round was accidentally loaded. Unusually for the Kamchatka it actually scored a hit...
Yeah, when I first read about Baltic Fleet, I couldn't help but admire Rozhestvensky. A lesser man would just abandon the expedition at the latest at Madagaskar, go rogue at worst.
And yet this man managed to get this floating circus of failures and disappointments to the other end of the world.
A bit of a shame that in this timeline, for a long time he will probably be remembered as a man who started war with the British Empire (until some historians manage to drag the story of Kamchatka into the light) and lost Russia a war (because you can bet they would use this justification for losing war. One thing to lose to some uppity Asians with delusions of grandeur, it's another to lose to a Great Power is what they would think).
And yet this man managed to get this floating circus of failures and disappointments to the other end of the world.
A bit of a shame that in this timeline, for a long time he will probably be remembered as a man who started war with the British Empire (until some historians manage to drag the story of Kamchatka into the light) and lost Russia a war (because you can bet they would use this justification for losing war. One thing to lose to some uppity Asians with delusions of grandeur, it's another to lose to a Great Power is what they would think).
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The Russian version of Saint-Petersburg is Petrograd. They could also name it back to Narva (the original name) if they’re going for the anti-Emperor angle.
General Ripper
Banned
Anyway, i think that Germany will ( after giving sanctuary to Czar ) give him also military support in gaining his throne back ( if feasible ), or if not, in taking as much land from Russia as possible ( Ukraine, Belarus, Baltics ) and putting there Czar as puppet or, as an alternative, forgetting to return them to Russia later... All of that using chaos in Russia and pretending to support rights of legitimate ruler against Red Menace. I wonder what would France and Britain do in such an scenario?
Looks like WW1/WW2 Italy has competition for most incompetent military.
Which is perfectly OTL, considering how the Russians and Austrians fared.
After all the Italians managed to win at Vittorio Veneto. After they fired Cadorna....
Speaking of Italy she is almost certainly going to use the opportunity to pester France. OTL she agreed to the Moroccan annexation in exchange for Libya... TTL she will probably demand more, most probably Tunisia (given her OTL arrogance she might make a pass for Corsica or Nice but that's a hard no without a war)/ Especially since her ally, Germany, is likely to encourage her opportunism... And then there are the Ottomans. This could very easily escalate the war all by its own.
As noted, it had already been renamed Petrograd early the war.
This creates a certain instability in the name which creates an opportunity...so I suppose what you are really asking is whether the Mensheviks rename it after Martov.
It seems unlikely. While, like Lenin, he dies early on from natural causes, the differences in his political outlook - he was less dogmatic, less bloodthirsty, less willing to rebuild his party in his own image, more eager to build a government with a broad coalition - suggest he will either not last long in power in the cobra cage that is post-Romanov Russian politics, or that if he does, there will not be anything quite like the same cult of personality forming around him. While it's not *impossible* that there is a movement to rename the city after the well-liked Martov in 1923, more likely, it just stays "Petrograd."
Thanks for both of your replies. I agree and I think I'll stick with Petrograd.
1905 Part One - Rule Britannia?
Here is the finalised update 
1905 Part One - Rule Britannia?
January: The British Far Eastern Expeditionary Force (primarily troops from Australian and British India), numbering 15,000 men arrives in Korea to fight alongside the Japanese in Manchuria. British and Japanese forces fighting together results in increased Anglophile and Japanophile feeling in both countries
January: Following the Polish uprising, separatist groups in the Caucasus, Lithuania and the Ukraine begin organising
January: Great Britain and Japan begins covertly supplying the separatist movements in Russia, aiding them with guns and supplies
January: Bloody Monday: A peaceful protest outside the Winter Palace quickly turns violent as the palace guards fire onto the crowd. The ensuing bloodshed results in 35 people dead and many more injured. The Tsar is now labbled as "Nicholas the Bloody" by the many protesters and workers of Russia
January: The St. Petersburg and Moscow Soviets are formed to represent the workers of Russia. Many more Soviets are formed in other cities soon after. The St. Petersburg Soviet is crucially led by Leon Trotsky
January: As a result of Bloody Monday, Cossack forces begin revolting in the Kuban.
February: The Battle of Mukden ends in a decisive victory for the combined Anglo-Japanese army. Russian units in the far east are completely shattered and cannot prevent a Japanese occupation of Manchuria.
February: The Japanese occupy Sakhalin
February: Menshevik and Left leaning SR leaders take command of the growing protests in Russia. The protests become more organised and paralysing. As a result, the Russian economy fully collapses
February: Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany arrives in Tangier and confers with representatives of the Sultan of Morocco. Germany declares they support the sovereignty of Morocco
March: Battle of Warsaw: Polish nationalist militias rise up in Warsaw, coinciding with an attack by Polish militias in Lodz
March: Due to France essentially having no allies in Europe, the French agree to German demands for a multilateral conference to be held in Algeciras. Representatives from Germany, Austria-Hungary, France, Great Britain, Italy, Spain and the United States. Japan will send a delegation as an observer.
March: Protests in Moscow and St Petersburg number in the hundreds of thousands. Russian soldiers begin defecting to the Soviets
March: Russia sues for peace. Tsar Nicholas II and his close advisors travel to Liverpool for peace negotiations, hoping that his presence would make the British more lenient
April: Battle of Warsaw: Warsaw falls to Polish militias, shattered Russian forces retreat eastwards amid mass desertion
April: Leon Trotsky organises the Soviet Guard, a paramilitary group operating on behalf of the Soviets. It is formed primarily from defecting soldiers and officers from the former Tsarist army
April: Treaty of Liverpool: Despite the Tsar’s wishes, Britain and Japan impose a harsh peace on Russia. Some of the more important terms of the Treaty of Liverpool include:
-Russia will acknowledge Korea and Inner Manchuria as part of Japans sphere of influence
-Russia will cede control of Sakhalin and Port Arthur to the Empire of Japan, and abandon her ambitions on China
-Vladivostok will be demilitarised for 10 years
-Russia will pay 10 million pounds to Japan and Great Britain in war reparations
-Russia will fully compensate the families of those lost in the Battle of Dogger Bank
-Russia will limit its Far Eastern Fleet to one capital ships, as well as escorts
-Russia will abandon its ambitions on Persia, Afghanistan and the Ottoman Empire
May: The May Revolution: The Tsar is refused re-entry to St Petersburg upon his return from peace negotiations in Liverpool. The Soviet Guard under Trotsky storms the winter palace and arrests government officials still loyal to the Tsar. The Soviet Republic of Russia is proclaimed by Julius Martov and Leon Trotsky. Elections for the new Peoples Duma are scheduled for July. Crucially, the Provisional government refuses to negotiate nor acknowledge the various separatist groups fighting within the former Tsarist Russia
May: The Russian Royal family flees to Germany, where they find refuge in the royal court of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Tsar Nicholas II does not relinquish his claim to the Russian throne. Many Russian aristocrats, including Grand Duke Michael flee into Central Asia and begin planning for a resistance against the new democratic socialist government.
May: Vladimir Lenin arrives in Moscow from Switzerland
May: Finland declares independence and begins fighting the provisional government
May: Kiev is abandoned to Ukrainian nationalists, who secure the city from disintegrating Russian troops
June: Battle of Brest: Polish militias drive towards Brest in an effort to take the city before the Provisional Government consolidates their power
June: Ukrainian forces, following their consolidation of Kiev, cross the river Dnieper and advance eastward. They quickly take Poltava and Zaporizhia
Next update: 1905 Part 2 -Good God what have we done
1905 Part One - Rule Britannia?
January: The British Far Eastern Expeditionary Force (primarily troops from Australian and British India), numbering 15,000 men arrives in Korea to fight alongside the Japanese in Manchuria. British and Japanese forces fighting together results in increased Anglophile and Japanophile feeling in both countries
January: Following the Polish uprising, separatist groups in the Caucasus, Lithuania and the Ukraine begin organising
January: Great Britain and Japan begins covertly supplying the separatist movements in Russia, aiding them with guns and supplies
January: Bloody Monday: A peaceful protest outside the Winter Palace quickly turns violent as the palace guards fire onto the crowd. The ensuing bloodshed results in 35 people dead and many more injured. The Tsar is now labbled as "Nicholas the Bloody" by the many protesters and workers of Russia
January: The St. Petersburg and Moscow Soviets are formed to represent the workers of Russia. Many more Soviets are formed in other cities soon after. The St. Petersburg Soviet is crucially led by Leon Trotsky
January: As a result of Bloody Monday, Cossack forces begin revolting in the Kuban.
February: The Battle of Mukden ends in a decisive victory for the combined Anglo-Japanese army. Russian units in the far east are completely shattered and cannot prevent a Japanese occupation of Manchuria.
February: The Japanese occupy Sakhalin
February: Menshevik and Left leaning SR leaders take command of the growing protests in Russia. The protests become more organised and paralysing. As a result, the Russian economy fully collapses
February: Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany arrives in Tangier and confers with representatives of the Sultan of Morocco. Germany declares they support the sovereignty of Morocco
March: Battle of Warsaw: Polish nationalist militias rise up in Warsaw, coinciding with an attack by Polish militias in Lodz
March: Due to France essentially having no allies in Europe, the French agree to German demands for a multilateral conference to be held in Algeciras. Representatives from Germany, Austria-Hungary, France, Great Britain, Italy, Spain and the United States. Japan will send a delegation as an observer.
March: Protests in Moscow and St Petersburg number in the hundreds of thousands. Russian soldiers begin defecting to the Soviets
March: Russia sues for peace. Tsar Nicholas II and his close advisors travel to Liverpool for peace negotiations, hoping that his presence would make the British more lenient
April: Battle of Warsaw: Warsaw falls to Polish militias, shattered Russian forces retreat eastwards amid mass desertion
April: Leon Trotsky organises the Soviet Guard, a paramilitary group operating on behalf of the Soviets. It is formed primarily from defecting soldiers and officers from the former Tsarist army
April: Treaty of Liverpool: Despite the Tsar’s wishes, Britain and Japan impose a harsh peace on Russia. Some of the more important terms of the Treaty of Liverpool include:
-Russia will acknowledge Korea and Inner Manchuria as part of Japans sphere of influence
-Russia will cede control of Sakhalin and Port Arthur to the Empire of Japan, and abandon her ambitions on China
-Vladivostok will be demilitarised for 10 years
-Russia will pay 10 million pounds to Japan and Great Britain in war reparations
-Russia will fully compensate the families of those lost in the Battle of Dogger Bank
-Russia will limit its Far Eastern Fleet to one capital ships, as well as escorts
-Russia will abandon its ambitions on Persia, Afghanistan and the Ottoman Empire
May: The May Revolution: The Tsar is refused re-entry to St Petersburg upon his return from peace negotiations in Liverpool. The Soviet Guard under Trotsky storms the winter palace and arrests government officials still loyal to the Tsar. The Soviet Republic of Russia is proclaimed by Julius Martov and Leon Trotsky. Elections for the new Peoples Duma are scheduled for July. Crucially, the Provisional government refuses to negotiate nor acknowledge the various separatist groups fighting within the former Tsarist Russia
May: The Russian Royal family flees to Germany, where they find refuge in the royal court of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Tsar Nicholas II does not relinquish his claim to the Russian throne. Many Russian aristocrats, including Grand Duke Michael flee into Central Asia and begin planning for a resistance against the new democratic socialist government.
May: Vladimir Lenin arrives in Moscow from Switzerland
May: Finland declares independence and begins fighting the provisional government
May: Kiev is abandoned to Ukrainian nationalists, who secure the city from disintegrating Russian troops
June: Battle of Brest: Polish militias drive towards Brest in an effort to take the city before the Provisional Government consolidates their power
June: Ukrainian forces, following their consolidation of Kiev, cross the river Dnieper and advance eastward. They quickly take Poltava and Zaporizhia
Next update: 1905 Part 2 -Good God what have we done
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The Germans would be fools not to exploit this. They could get their Brest-Litovsk plan in the east without even firing a shot
Im in the middle of writing 1906 (which will be in two parts again). Once I'm done with that 1905 part 2 will be uploaded
The Polish Uprising on their eastern border could give them the perfect excuse to mobilize and send troops into the area.
France or Germany possibly the USA in 1905 is not considered a significant factor even by the US itself.
NoMommsen
Donor
Dear @WarlordGandhi
Sry for commenting here so late, in a way 'just' came across it.
First :
I've enjoyed what you've written here so far
However ... wouldn't be me if I hadn't some 'nitpicks' to comment upon.
So, first comment/question : Where does this "HMS Sapphire" cruiser comes from ?
Second comment/question : 'Role' of Germany in the Doggerbank-War
Sry for commenting here so late, in a way 'just' came across it.
First :
I've enjoyed what you've written here so far
However ... wouldn't be me if I hadn't some 'nitpicks' to comment upon.
So, first comment/question : Where does this "HMS Sapphire" cruiser comes from ?
point one : in autumn 1904 there was no british cruiser of this name in service of the RN
(There was a Topaz-class cruiser of this name launched in march but completed/commisioned in Feb. 1905.)
point two : how and why does any british cruiser show up at the assembly of fisher boats at the Doggerbank in october 1904 ?Second comment/question : 'Role' of Germany in the Doggerbank-War
The 'incident was just another boost to Wilhelm II's as well as his then chancellor von Bülow ('intimate non-friend' of the then french foreign affairs minister Delcasse) attempts at this time to form a german-russian alliance
For the moment (1904/05 and even still later) Russia, tsarist Russia was the wished-for partner for the germans.
And in an actual conflict with Britain at that point in 1904 I won't see how Russia would NOT jump on any offer of support or partnership by esp. another great power neighbouring the North-Sea.
-which included the offer of help of the german 'Ostasian'-Squadron
-as the harbour of Tsingtao was ordered to reinforce/extend its fortifications
-which included the offer to build additional russian ships on german yards
-as the harbour of Tsingtao was ordered to reinforce/extend its fortifications
-which included the offer to build additional russian ships on german yards
For the moment (1904/05 and even still later) Russia, tsarist Russia was the wished-for partner for the germans.
And in an actual conflict with Britain at that point in 1904 I won't see how Russia would NOT jump on any offer of support or partnership by esp. another great power neighbouring the North-Sea.