TL: The War of Dogger Bank, or the Anglo-Russian War - Version 2

I think it’s going to be a lot more complicated than “public opinion turns firmly against the Emperor”. Here are some suggestions:

The army is going to hate the Navy’s guts for starting the war, and the Emperor for continuing it. They’ll want to take charge themselves and “do it right”. Expect a lot of Cossack warlords.

Well considering the Army has just been thrashed “third world Asians” and is disintegrating I’m not sure how much influence they would be able to exercise. However Cossack warlords is a good point

The navy has no more power because it’s been obliterated by the Anglo-Japanese Alliance.

Yep they do not have any power or influence what so ever

The guberiyas will support the status quo but be uncooperative since there will be crippling shortages and they need to look after themselves.

Guberiyas? Do you mean gubernias

The peasants won’t like conscription but will probably enjoy the fact that the trading towns are collapsing, and with them the government’s ability to enforce constricting laws.

The middle class just wants the suffering to end.
Both good points


The aristocracy is going to consider replacing Nikolai II, even in exile.
That’s an interesting point I did not consider. I’ll do some research into it


Also if Russian is falling apart like this Ukraine would just win territorial control by default after the Russians evacuate Kiev.
Good point I’ll take it into account



I don’t think the Kaiser would stoop to funding separatists in Russia. On the other hand, he’s not going to actively help the Imperial Government either.

I’m honestly split on this, what are other people’s thoughts on this?
 
January: The British Far Eastern Expeditionary Force, numbering 15,000 men arrives in Korea to fight alongside the Japanese in Manchuria. British and Japanese forces fighting together results in increased Anglophile and Japanophile feeling in both countries.
I'm assuming these troops are either Indian and/or ANZACS?
March: Due to France essentially having no allies in Europe, the French agree to attend a bilateral conference with Germany discussing the sovereignty of Morocco, to be held in August in the city of Algeciras.
If I'm France, I'd seriously consider asking for help from the US at this point. TR may not have a dog in the fight but he would like to boost his international stature.
May: The Russian Royal family flees to Germany, where they find refuge in the royal court of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Tsar Nicholas II does not relinquish his claim to the Russian throne.
The aristocracy is going to consider replacing Nikolai II, even in exile.
I don’t think the Kaiser would stoop to funding separatists in Russia. On the other hand, he’s not going to actively help the Imperial Government either.
The aristocracy is going to consider replacing Nikolai II, even in exile.
In the classic book The Guns of August, there is mention of a strong pro-German clique among the Nobility in Russia. Kaiser Bill should reach out to them and help them organize a new government to fight the various socialist and separatist movements in exchange for an Alliance; this would end the threat of encirclement and bolster him verses France.
The navy has no more power because it’s been obliterated by the Anglo-Japanese Alliance.
Well considering the Army has just been thrashed “third world Asians” and is disintegrating I’m not sure how much influence they would be able to exercise. However Cossack warlords is a good point.
As a Russian czar once said: "Russia's only allies are the Army and the Fleet." With both disintegrating. Russia's in serious trouble.
 
Could Britain support separatists as part of the war effort?
That makes more sense I'll fix that up

I'm assuming these troops are either Indian and/or ANZACS?
Yes they are primarily ANZACS and Indian troops
If I'm France, I'd seriously consider asking for help from the US at this point. TR may not have a dog in the fight but he would like to boost his international stature.
So would you think it would be more realistic to have Germany demand a multilateral conference as in OTL and the French would concede, with Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy, France, Spain and the United States participating?
In the classic book The Guns of August, there is mention of a strong pro-German clique among the Nobility in Russia. Kaiser Bill should reach out to them and help them organize a new government to fight the various socialist and separatist movements in exchange for an Alliance; this would end the threat of encirclement and bolster him verses France.
Im going to do more research on this, would you say that Nicholas II would remain Tsar of this "new government", or would this German backed Russia even have a monarchy at all, being more an aristocratic oligarchy?
As a Russian czar once said: "Russia's only allies are the Army and the Fleet." With both disintegrating. Russia's in serious trouble.
Thats an understatement
 
Last edited:
Not sure about such sudden sucess of revolutionaries in Russia. Taking Winter Palace and St. Petersburg seems like little too much. Same thing about Ukraine.
 

iVC

Donor
The Russian ship Kamchatka, who appeared to have avoided the Battle of Dogger Bank, shells the seaside town of Hartlepool, killing 10 and wounding several more.

Did someone already pointed out that Kamchatka was just a floating maintenance and repair vessel?
 
Not sure about such sudden sucess of revolutionaries in Russia. Taking Winter Palace and St. Petersburg seems like little too much. Same thing about Ukraine.
A complete economic collapse as a result of the British blockade and paralysing protests created a volatile revolutionary atmosphere. As for Ukraine there were even bigger insurections compared to OTL as a result of the increased supplies being shipped in. In fact in OTL, it took Russia up to 300,000 soldiers to quell the unrest in Poland following 1905 alone
Did someone already pointed out that Kamchatka was just a floating maintenance and repair vessel?
I was unable to get precise details on the ship itself. However, considering this website:
The main fleet then approached Tangier having lost contact with the "Kamchatka" for some days. The "Kamchatka" eventually rejoined the fleet reporting that she had fired 300 shells in an engagement with three Japanese ships - the enemy vessels were actually a Swedish merchantman, a German trawler and a French schooner. For good measure as the fleet left Tangier one ship managed to cut the city's underwater telegraph cable with her anchor which prevented communication with Europe for four days.
then it is fair to assume that the Kamchatka was armed to some degree with some form of naval artillery
 

iVC

Donor
then it is fair to assume that the Kamchatka was armed to some degree with some form of naval artillery

It was armed with six QF 3-pounder Hotchkiss guns.

Maximum firing range was something between 2 and 3 kilometers.
 
Last edited:
Do not think Britain would fund separatists apart from Finland and Poland ( as these could be argued to be separate realms already, just held in union with Russia via the Czar.) purely to stop others getting the idea of doing it to the Empire. Germany has the same issue due to its polish lands, Austro-Hungary has its minorities etc . Germany OTL only helped send Lenin to Russia as an act of desperation, separatism was a force all the great powers wanted to keep firmly in check.
 
So would you think it would be more realistic to have Germany demand a multilateral conference as in OTL and the French would concede, with Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy, France, Spain and the United States participating?
That wouldn't be a bad idea; at least this way. France can be given some concessions to save face. It can also be used to resolve other issues as well. BTW maybe have a Japanese observer?

Im going to do more research on this, would you say that Nicholas II would remain Tsar of this "new government", or would this German backed Russia even have a monarchy at all, being more an aristocratic oligarchy?
No way; Nicholas is too badly discredited, never mind both he and his wife are drug addicts. If you want a Czar I suggest looking at Grand Duke Michael; he was considered by many nobles to be the only "man" among the Romanovs.
 
Do not think Britain would fund separatists apart from Finland and Poland ( as these could be argued to be separate realms already, just held in union with Russia via the Czar.) purely to stop others getting the idea of doing it to the Empire. Germany has the same issue due to its polish lands, Austro-Hungary has its minorities etc . Germany OTL only helped send Lenin to Russia as an act of desperation, separatism was a force all the great powers wanted to keep firmly in check.
Thats a fair point. I would still think that Great Britain would supply separatist rebels in Russia simply just to keep Russia distracted from Central Asia. After all Russophobia is at its peak and the Great Game is still fresh in the British minds.
Regardless of the British, the Japanese would most certainly supply the separatists to the best of their ability, they already did so OTL, albeit unsuccessfully (see the Grafton Affair).

That wouldn't be a bad idea; at least this way. France can be given some concessions to save face. It can also be used to resolve other issues as well. BTW maybe have a Japanese observer?
I'll take it into account

No way; Nicholas is too badly discredited, never mind both he and his wife are drug addicts. If you want a Czar I suggest looking at Grand Duke Michael; he was considered by many nobles to be the only "man" among the Romanovs.
NGL that has given me a great idea for something in the second half of 1905. What would you think the dynamic would be if Tsarist loyalists proclaimed Michael as Tsar Michael II while NIcholas II still claims the Russian throne?
 
I think at this point the US, France and/or Germany should step in and tell the British to calm down; after all the Russian Navy is destroyed and Russia is impotent and helpless. Further war is pointless. Get a Congress organized to work out a treaty to end the wars with suitable compensation.
That's not the way of diplomacy in the period.
The USA and it's opinions are irrelevant; it's a second-rate power at best.
France is a Russian ally and. after the events described in the OP, will be attempting to steer a middle ground between declaring war on Britain (which it's technically obliged to do) and not committing national suicide.
Germany will probably be split between chortling (one of it's main potential enemies has just picked a fight with another) and caution.
 
AFAIK Norway had an independent merchant marine whilst part of the dual monarchy
I have no confess very little knowledge of the matter. I was working from press reports of the trigger-happiness of the Russians and a couple of books. Thank you for the information.
 
The Norwegians had some limited autonomy from 1814, with the final separation from Sweden in mid 1905. There was some dynamic tension between Norway and Sweden during that final dissolution, so I'd think they'd have very little interest in an outside fight.
But probably some interest, on the Swedes part at least, in a weakened Russia and perhaps an independent (Swedish aligned) Finland.

I wonder if there will be an equivalent to the Grafton Affair ITTL and if it's more successful...
 
NGL that has given me a great idea for something in the second half of 1905. What would you think the dynamic would be if Tsarist loyalists proclaimed Michael as Tsar Michael II while NIcholas II still claims the Russian throne?
If the Germans decide to back Michael then pressure will be applied to Nicholas to abdicate or in some way pass over the crown. If they stick with Nicholas then I think Michael is unlikely to strike out on his own without a great power in support, so he will disown any odd loyalist who tried to proclaim him the new Tsar.

Of course if France decides it wants to get it's Russian ally back and that backing Michael is the best way to do that, and is worth the risk of annoying Germany, then you could get two rival claimants.
 
I'd imagine Britain is gonna kick Russia's arse big time, maybe even a earlier Bolshevik or at least republican revolution.
Will Britain be like OTL Germany and smuggle in Lenin and other dissidents?
It's probably too early for Lenin, and the Brits at least will be wary of stirring up revolution in Russia (a bad example, especially for British India).
Historically there was the Grafton Affair, where the Japanese (in the form of the Akashi Motojiro[1]) arranged to ship arms, ammunition and explosives to Finnish revolutionaries[2].

The plan failed due to one of the leading revolutionaries on the ship having run out of cigarettes[3], the crew getting drunk and the unexpected arrival of the Russian navy. Though some arms were landed at Kemi and more at Jakobstad but when the ship left Jakobstad she ran aground. None of the rifles were used against the Russians, though they did account for a few moose...

Why this has never been turned into a mini-series, or Doctor Who episode, I have no idea.

[1] Motojiro is a fascinating character, a noted poet and painter as well as a spy. He recruited the (in)famous agent Sidney Reilly to work for Japan, and evaded the Ochrana on numerous occasions while travelling around Europe and inside the Russian Empire. He was later a highly successful Governor-General of Taiwan, and is the only Japanese Governor-General buried there. He's considered the Japanese equivalent of James Bond in media.

[2] Unfortunately without disposing of the ship's previous cargo of wine...

[3] When put ashore he was almost arrested while attempting to burglarise a tobacconist.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Re the Kamchatka, if a foreign ship, of a Navy just having sunk a RN cruiser, throws some hundreds of (even small inefective ones) shells against a English town, said Navy is going to a far better place (or not really better...) Very very soon.
 
Top