TL: The War of Dogger Bank, or the Anglo-Russian War- Version 1 DISCONTINUED

Ryan

Donor
Beresford had lost the battleship Swiftsure as well as the cruiser Sapphire and several destroyers.

given the level of sheer incompetence that existed in the Russian Baltic Fleet (seriously, if someone wrote some of the otl examples of incompetence displayed in an ATL it would get shouted down as ASB), i find it hard to believe that they managed to inflict that many casualties on the Royal Navy.
 
The only question is, what's the real opportunity...

Deal with France while it's distracted, ally with Britain and fight noone, kick Russia while it's down, just vaguely threaten someone since they can't afford a war? All of them could work, but you got to pick.

Germany might play the long game. Stay neutral, offer to sell supplies to Russia at a premium, and wait to see how France jumps. They need not hurry and can take the time to plan on what is best for them.
 
Thank you all for your feedback. I've edited the update based on your discussion so that it make more sense. I've also added a wikibox for those interested.
If the casualties don't seem right please let me know!
 
Thank you all for your feedback. I've edited the update based on your discussion so that it make more sense. I've also added a wikibox for those interested.
If the casualties don't seem right please let me know!

The revision is appreciated as well the wiki box. The casualties I can not say. Others with better knowledge or sources might be able to check the size of the crews and support techs to see if the numbers look right.
 
I believe it is 'Warriors of the Rising Sun', by Robert Edgerton, that has an absolutely hysterical account of the Russian voyage from Murmansk, south around Africa, through the Indian Ocean and onward to its doom. I mean, even somebody with little knowledge of history of sea warfare would find it immensely hilarious.

There was one anecdote relating to some gunnery practice in which the target was never hit, but one of the cruisers was hit by accident, wounding several sailors and killing an Orthodox priest, "leading one anticlerical junior officer to pronounce it "not a bad night's work"'.
 
I believe it is 'Warriors of the Rising Sun', by Robert Edgerton, that has an absolutely hysterical account of the Russian voyage from Murmansk, south around Africa, through the Indian Ocean and onward to its doom. I mean, even somebody with little knowledge of history of sea warfare would find it immensely hilarious.

There was one anecdote relating to some gunnery practice in which the target was never hit, but one of the cruisers was hit by accident, wounding several sailors and killing an Orthodox priest, "leading one anticlerical junior officer to pronounce it "not a bad night's work"'.
Politovsky's account of the Voyage of the Damned ("From Libau to Tsushima", available here) is a classic. Almost everything that could go wrong, did. Often several times.
One particulatly struck me
The engineer-constructor Kostenko, who was in the battleship Orel, was washing his feet and somehow cut his left foot with the basin.
Interesting how he managed to "accidentally" slice his Achilles tendon...
But then Vladimir Kostenko would live until 1956. Eugene Politovsky died at Tsushima, fifty years earlier.
 
If we assume that there is an Anglo Russian War then one must analyze the OTHER Great powers actions.

At First I Assume we have to look at France.

France is allied with Russia - but only against Germany, so France is in no way oblieged to join into the war. But this would still mean the end of the French Russian alliance as Germany would (as OTL was prepared) enter into an alliance with Russia against the "anglo-japanese" block - France say good-bye to ever regaining A-L.

So France MOST LIKELY will join the war on russias side.

This has problems of its own. The French fleet is now standing alone against the RN - not good

OTOH I assume that the French Presence in Indochina and in Africa is a great concern to the Brits. The French are probably able to threaten at least the british possesions in Western Africa and probably reach into Sudan from the Chad.

Resupplying Africa should be easier for France than Britain.

The longer the war lasts the better for Germany - France Russia and Britain will face losses - While Germany prospers.

If that constellation fights the war might take some time.

Might Russia invade Persia?

Might Austria use the opportunity to get concessions from Russia on the Balkans?

Will The Ottomans join the British - especially if Russia attacks Persia?

Could Austria use the opportunity to make a war against Italy?

Interesting times to come for sure...

The Entente is certainly dead by now. No way we get a Triple Entente.


Germany and the US will rub their hands - mucho Cash flowing towards them.

The war is double problem for Britain - they reset the naval race with dreadnought - if depleted treasury with a war going on - less new builds - US and Germany will become rivals to britains naval supremacy within a few years... (Probably an earlier WNT to limit naval race with at least the US and probably GErmany getting (near) parity....
 
The revision is appreciated as well the wiki box. The casualties I can not say. Others with better knowledge or sources might be able to check the size of the crews and support techs to see if the numbers look right.
Thank you as well!
I believe it is 'Warriors of the Rising Sun', by Robert Edgerton, that has an absolutely hysterical account of the Russian voyage from Murmansk, south around Africa, through the Indian Ocean and onward to its doom. I mean, even somebody with little knowledge of history of sea warfare would find it immensely hilarious.

There was one anecdote relating to some gunnery practice in which the target was never hit, but one of the cruisers was hit by accident, wounding several sailors and killing an Orthodox priest, "leading one anticlerical junior officer to pronounce it "not a bad night's work"'.
Politovsky's account of the Voyage of the Damned ("From Libau to Tsushima", available here) is a classic. Almost everything that could go wrong, did. Often several times.
One particulatly struck me
The engineer-constructor Kostenko, who was in the battleship Orel, was washing his feet and somehow cut his left foot with the basin.
Interesting how he managed to "accidentally" slice his Achilles tendon...
But then Vladimir Kostenko would live until 1956. Eugene Politovsky died at Tsushima, fifty years earlier.
Very interesting!
 
If we assume that there is an Anglo Russian War then one must analyze the OTHER Great powers actions.

At First I Assume we have to look at France.

France is allied with Russia - but only against Germany, so France is in no way oblieged to join into the war. But this would still mean the end of the French Russian alliance as Germany would (as OTL was prepared) enter into an alliance with Russia against the "anglo-japanese" block - France say good-bye to ever regaining A-L.

So France MOST LIKELY will join the war on russias side.

This has problems of its own. The French fleet is now standing alone against the RN - not good

OTOH I assume that the French Presence in Indochina and in Africa is a great concern to the Brits. The French are probabl able to threaten at leas the british possesions in Wester Africa and probably rech into Sudan from the Chad.

Resupplying Africa should be easier for France than Britain.

The longer the war lasts the better for Germany - France Russia and Britain will face losses - While Germany prospers.

If that constellation fights the war might take some time.

Might Russia invade Persia?

Might Austria use the opportunity to get concessions from Russia on the Balkans?

Will The Ottomans join the British - especially if Russia attacks Persia?

Could Austria use the opportunity to make a war against Italy?

Interesting times to come for sure...

The Entente is certainly dead by now. No way we get a Triple Entente.


Germany and the US will rub their hands - mucho Cash flowing towards them.

The war is double problem for Britain - they reset the naval race with dreadnought - if depleted treasury with a war going on - less new builds - US and Germany will become rivals to britains naval supremacy within a few years... (Probably an earlier WNT to limit naval race with at least the US and probably GErmany getting (near) parity....
Just wait and see!
 
That's churchill's line ;)
I'm sure he stole it from someone.

ETA: On investigation it seems the line is attributed to Abraham Lincoln (speaking of Ambrose Burnside) but this isn't true (it was used by Charles Fair). Certainly the phrase was used in 1891 (about baseball).
 
Why does France want to go to war against Britain over an issue that Russia was very, very clearly in the wrong about? What does she have to gain by this? What will the French people think of this? Something like this a decade after the Dreyfus affair would split the country apart.

If anything, France will be appalled by what's happening and doing everything in its power to prevent a shooting war from erupting. Even if by some miracle Russia beats Britain, France can't oppose Germany with an angry Britain on her flank. Unless Germany gets involved, French policy will be neutral with a weepy streak at watching the insanity unfold.
 
Why does France want to go to war against Britain over an issue that Russia was very, very clearly in the wrong about? What does she have to gain by this? What will the French people think of this? Something like this a decade after the Dreyfus affair would split the country apart.

If anything, France will be appalled by what's happening and doing everything in its power to prevent a shooting war from erupting. Even if by some miracle Russia beats Britain, France can't oppose Germany with an angry Britain on her flank. Unless Germany gets involved, French policy will be neutral with a weepy streak at watching the insanity unfold.

Its not a question of what to gain, its more what do we lose if we don't support our best ally against Germany.
 
Its not a question of what to gain, its more what do we lose if we don't support our best ally against Germany.

The moment the first Russian shell hit a British ship France had already lost.

But besides the point, there's no way the French people support a war against Britain when Russia is the clear aggressor and when the Royal Navy can devastate the French economy the moment the puck drops.

"We're going to war with our friend, because our other friend went and started war against them. Also, we'll be under blockade, most of our ships will be swept from the sea and our colonies attacked. The Germans may also invade at any time because we'll have to garrison the coast and our border will be frightfully lacking in soldiers." Well you've certainly won me over about why we should fight Britain.
 
The War of Dogger Bank
Its update time! Some of your questions will be answered but more will probably arise!:p


The War of Dogger Bank

Although the war would only go on for four months, it would have widespread ramifications that would be felt for the next century and beyond. Great Britain immediately began a blockade of the White Sea and St. Petersburg and sent an expeditionary force of ten thousand men to help Japan in the Far East.

The blockade proved catastrophic to the Russian economy. Her economy had been unstable following the onset of war with Japan, but the blockade brought its economy to near collapse. There was no way for the remaining Russian fleet to break the blockade, and as such there was no way for Russia to export via her ports and were forced to expensively export across land. Further, Russia lost its only friend on the continent. The French Republic refused to join the war against Britain or even Japan, citing how Russia was the aggressor and that they could not afford to go to war with Britain.

The invasion and occupation of Arkhangelsk by a British force on the 3 March 1905, along with the renewed invasion of Manchuria by Japan and the vast social discontent engulfing Russia, proved to be the last straw for Russia who sued for peace on the 10th. Tsar Nicholas sent a delegation to Liverpool, with direct orders to “give as little as possible”. However, despite attempts by France at mediation, the British and Japanese delegations at Liverpool made extensive demands, including the ceding of Manchuria and Port Arthur to Japan, and heavy war reparations to both Britain and Japan. Britain also demanded that the Russian Baltic Fleet be limited to a single capital ship and a set of screens.

However, upon hearing that the Russian delegation was about to accept the demands, Tsar Nicholas, against the advice of his new advisors, travelled to Liverpool himself and took control of the delegation, evidently expecting that his presence would help Russia’s cause on the peace table. But, the Japanese and British were of course unfazed, and continued pushing with their demands, threatening to renew the war if the Tsar refused. Disheartened, the Tsar conceded and on the 30th April the Treaty of Liverpool was signed, with the following terms:

- Russia will cede control of Manchuria, Sakhalin and Port Arthur to the Empire of Japan, and abandon her ambitions on China

- Russia will pay 10 Million pounds to Japan and Great Britain in war reparations

- Russia will fully compensate the families of those lost in the Battle of Dogger Bank

- Russia will limit its Baltic Fleet to one capital ship, as well as escorts

- Russia will abandon its ambitions on Persia, Afghanistan and the Ottoman Empire

- Along with other minor terms

The Treaty of Liverpool is often remarked by historians as the end of Imperial Russia. However, Russia would remerge again but would not be the same again.


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