TL idea discussion: East Asian colonization of the Americas

I've read various TLs and threads regarding east asian (China, Japan) colonization of the New World. However, most (including myself) think that this is extremely unlikely as these countries are focuses primarily inwards, and then towards the south China seas when thinking of the exterior. There was little to no impetus for exploration, much less towards the barren wastes of the frozen north and endless open waters to the east.

So my question to the forum is: what kind of PoDs might push asians to embark on the kind of exploration that the had Europeans set out to do?

I have a nascent idea involving the Haida. The Haida were a tribe living in the northwest of North America, in the area of coastline between southern Alaska, Columbia, and Washington. They were described as the "Native American equivalent of Vikings". What if the Haida had launched exploratory parties (for raiding or finding new fisheries and whatnot) towards the west, much like the norse from Iceland did OTL when they explored Vinland.

What if these raider/fishermen came into contact with the Yakuts and Ainu, and by extension, Japan and China. What further steps would be necessary in order to have the east asians launch expeditions to the New World, where presumably they would find the fertile lands of Oregon Country and California waiting for them...?
 
highly unlikeyl simply because the necessity to look for new trade routes was not their for the asian nations since trade did flow to them from europe.

Perhaps the polynesians are more successfull. I know they made it to hawaii and so maybe they make it to california? then again do Polynesians count as east asian since their were many in southern china before the han moved in?
 
highly unlikeyl simply because the necessity to look for new trade routes was not their for the asian nations since trade did flow to them from europe.

Perhaps the polynesians are more successfull. I know they made it to hawaii and so maybe they make it to california? then again do Polynesians count as east asian since their were many in southern china before the han moved in?

So basically, Asia has tone under the similar conditions to Europe that drove the to find new trade opportunities. As Asia is a huge economic and production hub of valued export products, this proves difficult. A plage that targets silk worms destroys the Chinese export economy and sends them searhing for a new product?

I would count Polynesians, but I'm not sure where they would get the necessary firepower to do stuff like conquer the Aztecs
 
So basically, Asia has tone under the similar conditions to Europe that drove the to find new trade opportunities. As Asia is a huge economic and production hub of valued export products, this proves difficult. A plage that targets silk worms destroys the Chinese export economy and sends them searhing for a new product?

I would count Polynesians, but I'm not sure where they would get the necessary firepower to do stuff like conquer the Aztecs
Well even then you gotta remember the chinese mindset ws one of them being the center of the world. As its centre they had no incentive to go to other parts even if a plague destroys silk So somehow you have to get rid of that mentality held by the chinese rulers as at the veyr least a starting point.
 
Well even then you gotta remember the chinese mindset ws one of them being the center of the world. As its centre they had no incentive to go to other parts even if a plague destroys silk So somehow you have to get rid of that mentality held by the chinese rulers as at the veyr least a starting point.

ofc that's a given :rolleyes:

a series of crisis that butterflies away the rise of the "center" mentality while also providing incentive for outward expansion would do the trick... but also butterfly away China as we know it... Imagine China without confucian philosophy...
 
It doesn't have to be financed by the countries government surely.

What about the losing side in a political re-shuffle, instead of deciding to sit at home waiting for the death squads or go out in a blaze of glory with a cavalierly charge against impossible odds opp's to pack up the wife, kids, family retainers, soldiers, servants and peons and relocate?

Some of the warlords had easily enough resources to mount large very well equipped colonizing expeditions.

Mainly thinking of Japan where whole clans were wiped out during the various bids for power but I'm sure there would be candidates in most countries.
 
It doesn't have to be financed by the countries government surely.

What about the losing side in a political re-shuffle, instead of deciding to sit at home waiting for the death squads or go out in a blaze of glory with a cavalierly charge against impossible odds opp's to pack up the wife, kids, family retainers, soldiers, servants and peons and relocate?

Some of the warlords had easily enough resources to mount large very well equipped colonizing expeditions.

Mainly thinking of Japan where whole clans were wiped out during the various bids for power but I'm sure there would be candidates in most countries.

This is a good idea!

There are cultural precedents for "exile or death". So for instance, defeated Japanese clans could be given the merciful choice of having the entire clan forever abandon all claims to any portion of the homeland and find exile in the lands of the barbarians. Something like that. It could even become a ritualized cultural practice (with ceremonies and and words to recite, etc) during periods of great upheaval, such as the Sengoku Jidai.

Now I can see it... a horde of landless Japanese minor lords and their samurai retainers, armed with arquebuses facing a group of curious Native Americans.
 
Chinese colonization of the Americas will take a different form from European colonization, if it ever happens. For one, the Pacific is larger than the Atlantic, and the currents are different. The Polynesians managed with that though. For other thing, there is few incentive to go and conquer/colonize other lands by Chinese emperors, and not many Chinese would want to move away from what they consider the most advanced, rich country in the world (which was for quite some time). Even the nearby steppes and kingdoms were considered too far away from the heart of China, hell even Taiwan was considered remote! (though I don't remember the source). So conquest and colonization is out of the picture.

Trade and contact, that is another thing. The merchant class was seen as a burden, rather than a worthy profession. Zeng-He did travel across the Indian Ocean that was most of the known world, but it was a mission to retain diplomatic and trade contact more than exploration. The northern Pacific was too cold, and the South Pacific was unknown. Some rather brave Chinese explorers could potentially reach Alaska, maybe Oregon, but they would have few to show for it: unlike the South Asian polities of the time, there is lttle to trade with the natives there and the explorers would probably become a footnote in history, much like the Viking colonies in North America. The cultures of Mesoamerica and the Andes are of course much more promising, but someone has to reach them first. And even then I doubt even the most daring Chinese traders would try to have permanent contact, let alone conquest and colonization.

You know what would be interesting? The trading states of Indonesia combine with the Polynesians to explore the Pacific, and eventually reach the Americas...
 
You know what would be interesting? The trading states of Indonesia combine with the Polynesians to explore the Pacific, and eventually reach the Americas...

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the topic of China. China cannot be a major state colonizer, unless it is butterflied to the point of not really being "China" anymore.


The Indonesians/Polinesians look a lot more promising in terms of impetus. However there's the problem of range. Sure, they got to Hawaii, but there are island chains through polynesia within reasonable distance of each other. After that, it's an empty stretch of ocean wider than the atlantic except without the comparable islands such as the Azores and Bermuda. Going through Hawaii is no go with their naval tech. Going north over the Alaska route is too distant, too roundabout. Plus they'd have Japanese pirates to worry about if they are carrying trade valuables.

Perhaps a southern option might rise? From French Polynesia going south-east there are some islands (on my modern map they are owned by Chile). Judging by thumb length on the map, it seems much easier to go 1/2 a thumb to an island, 3/4 a thumb to another island and then a final small hop to the mainland than 1 full thumb straight from Hawaii to the closest point on the mainland. I'm no naval expert but the prospect of "pit stops" makes the deal sound like a much better option. It certainly is for road trips :p

From this southern route they'd make contact with the Inca quite quickly...
 
My understanding is that it's considered very likely that Polynesians did make it to the Americas (mainly based on the fact that the Sweet Potato, an American plant, became a staple of Polynesian cuisine, which implies either contact or some very fortunate drifting).

That said, Austronesians tended to be reluctant to settle in already-inhabited areas (see e.g. New Guinea, where they were mostly confined to a few enclaves). And they had been isolated enough that they didn't really have the level of epidemic diseases to cause the mass plagues that devastated post-contact America.

But yeah, the biggest challenge facing any colonizer coming from Asia to the Americas is that the Pacific is so much bigger than the Atlantic. The Atlantic is small enough that Cabral could discover Brazil by accident. A Chinese explorer sailing west the same distance would just discover endless oceans. The Polynesians were extremely sophisticated navigators, and it took them literally thousands of years to settle the Pacific islands.
 
This is a good idea!

There are cultural precedents for "exile or death". So for instance, defeated Japanese clans could be given the merciful choice of having the entire clan forever abandon all claims to any portion of the homeland and find exile in the lands of the barbarians. Something like that. It could even become a ritualized cultural practice (with ceremonies and and words to recite, etc) during periods of great upheaval, such as the Sengoku Jidai.

Now I can see it... a horde of landless Japanese minor lords and their samurai retainers, armed with arquebuses facing a group of curious Native Americans.

Who's going to pay for the ships and supplies needed? That would be very, very expensive.

Still, it might well be the most likely scenario.
 
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