TL Idea: Batman Alternate Actors/Films
- Thread starter Emperor Norton I
- Start date
I developed a theory in the past few weeks. I think the problem with Batman Returns is a lack of levity. Nicholson brought levity to that film, and infused it with energy, even in terms of a dark comedy. That dark humor allowed the film to be serious while at the same time pleasing, and with some joy. Batman Returns lacked that element, and was therefore really miserable for it. It can be critically praised now in terms of a serious film, but that's not what people wanted. It did not need to go to the camp of Schumacher, but it could have been just like Batman '89 in terms of light and dark. The Joker is dead, so you need other avenues to keep it from going too deadly grim. It does not need to be the same thing as the Joker. It doesn't even have to be comedic relief. But there needs to be an element of levity and energy. Introducing Robin may have done that. I have also had the thought that actually using Prince's soundtrack in the film could have done so too. It is odd that Batman Returns lacks a soundtrack beyond the Elfman score. Though I think contract considerations may have voided Prince producing it, maybe another artist like Michael Jackson, or perhaps multiple artists as found on other soundtracks. For lack of a better word, the movie needed to be fun.
And perhaps drop the entire Burtonized plot altogether for (one of) the original ideas: Penguin as an arms dealing wealthy gangster, Catwoman as his assassin, and continuing where Batman left off. Batman and Vicki were together in the original plot idea, with Catwoman as a femme fatale. And Penguin was trying to get at the Wayne treasure buried under the manor which, forgive me if I'm misremembering, would have dated back to the Civil War and may have had something to do with slavery and all that. And it would have revealed to Bruce that his parents were actually part of a secret society of the Gotham elite that had been exploiting the city, and this society killed his parents because they wanted to turn away from it. I think the Cobblepot family were members as well. It was essentially the Court of the Owls prior to that concept existing in the comics. So Bruce Wayne would have been forced to confront this original sin.
And perhaps drop the entire Burtonized plot altogether for (one of) the original ideas: Penguin as an arms dealing wealthy gangster, Catwoman as his assassin, and continuing where Batman left off. Batman and Vicki were together in the original plot idea, with Catwoman as a femme fatale. And Penguin was trying to get at the Wayne treasure buried under the manor which, forgive me if I'm misremembering, would have dated back to the Civil War and may have had something to do with slavery and all that. And it would have revealed to Bruce that his parents were actually part of a secret society of the Gotham elite that had been exploiting the city, and this society killed his parents because they wanted to turn away from it. I think the Cobblepot family were members as well. It was essentially the Court of the Owls prior to that concept existing in the comics. So Bruce Wayne would have been forced to confront this original sin.
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Another thought I had is Tim Burton as an active producer. In the OTL, he was a producer in name only on Batman Forever. As a producer actively involved in the project, he could have lent creative direction, while at the same time a different director would have kept it for going too much in the direction of purely a Tim Burton film, which was the issue with Batman Returns. Essentially, it is a check-and-balance system that could permit a "Tim Burton Batman" that is not a Tim Burton Batman.
That could even begin starting with Batman II. It may have been more plausible during that time; Burton has leeway coming off Batman '89 but does not want to direct, but the studio wants him involved in leading the franchise. In short, it could be a George Lucas situation. Burton gets credit, while another director does the ground work and keeps the franchise going based on what everyone likes about the first one, which the original director may not be able to see themselves.
That could even begin starting with Batman II. It may have been more plausible during that time; Burton has leeway coming off Batman '89 but does not want to direct, but the studio wants him involved in leading the franchise. In short, it could be a George Lucas situation. Burton gets credit, while another director does the ground work and keeps the franchise going based on what everyone likes about the first one, which the original director may not be able to see themselves.
There you go the first part to my Batman TL.... https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/batman-legends-of-the-screen.388442/#post-12400208
Looks good. What does the Batman costume look like in your mind's eye? Is it a take off of the 1960s outfit, or is it more in line with the eventual Neal Adams look, or something else?
On a personal note, I was thinking of writing a vignette of the alternate Batman II I mentioned, from the perspective of a Rolling Stone review of Michael Jackson's soundtrack to it. "Michael Jackson Understood Batman Better Than Anybody", with the alternate story being revealed through brief references and glimpses, with the imagination filling in the rest.
On a personal note, I was thinking of writing a vignette of the alternate Batman II I mentioned, from the perspective of a Rolling Stone review of Michael Jackson's soundtrack to it. "Michael Jackson Understood Batman Better Than Anybody", with the alternate story being revealed through brief references and glimpses, with the imagination filling in the rest.
I say it is a combination of Neal Adams and Tim Burton's costumes. Also it has that Chris Nolan functionality feel to it. So, the look of Adams with the Burton black and Nolan body armor. Think the Animated Series but without the undies and again more of a body armor look.
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Well I went with a very young cast intentionally(as you'll see in my production post). Though Niven was almost in his 60's and fits both notable incarnations of Alfred. But on Pacino I agree, that's why I molded the plot and character to fit his age. If you can think of a more suitable Italian-American actor of the time period for Maroni, I'd more than likely accept it. He was the most difficult character for me to cast actually.
I was thinking Raf Vallone, but he may run into the opposite problem.
I actually quite like him for Sal's father Don Luigi. I'll change the plot to give him a bigger part accordingly. Does anyone have any suggestions for the other smaller parts the Wayne's, Joe Chill, Commisioner Loeb, the corrupt DA, ect.
I was thinking James Cagney for Thomas Wayne, though he may have been retired by then iirc.
EDIT: err, brainfart there. Forgot how old he was by then...
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I have been considering an alternate Batman II. While I may not write up the synopsis, it is driving me crazy to keep it in my head. I would write it, but I don't feel I have the ability to write it out in a sort of point-by-point plot explanation. It would be a modification of the Sam Hamm script in a more cohesive way. The Sam Hamm script has some good ideas but is lackluster. The final version has good ideas but is too dark:
We open directly from the first Batman movie, around Christmas time. The Joker has been killed in the recent past, and Batmania is sweeping Gotham. Stores are filled with bootleg merchandise, as the mysterious vigilante becomes a tourist attraction for Gotham. It is a time of relative peace in Gotham City. The Joker has decapitated the leadership of the major crime families, and the underworld is in disarray. Batman is sweeping up what's left. However, the Gotham police have an uncomfortable relationship with Batman's vigilantism. Batman has also inspired street vigilantes known as "The Order of the Bat", who try to take matters into their own hands, but with often disastrous results. Bruce Wayne does not like them, nor the resentment they bring to Batman. Here we see the hypocrisy of Batman's existence, which even Bruce is becoming aware of. Alfred playfully points this out. Meanwhile, Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale continue their relationship, but we can sense distance growing between them. Vale loves Bruce Wane, but is it Bruce Wayne or Batman that is the real person? Bruce is thinking about giving up the Batman mantle, and assuming a normal life.
Meanwhile, in prison, Oswald Cobblepot (Bob Hoskins) is using his charms to get an early release. Hoskins is a member of the Gotham elite. The Cobblepot family rivals the Wayne family in terms of prestige. However, Oswald Cobblepot is an arms dealer and the head of a major crime family, going by the alias "The Penguin". While the Joker was murdering his rivals, Cobblepot was safely tucked away in a prison cell. Penguin is what Bruce could have been. He is a selfish, violent playboy who uses his wealth for personal gain and exploitation. Released from prison, Cobblepot is back to his old ways. He intends to fill the vacuum, and take power as the head of the Gotham underworld.
Meanwhile, Cobblepot promotes himself as a reformed man who was never truly a criminal. He promotes his charity work, and uses PR stunts to build his reputation. He goes so far as to announce his intention to run for mayor of Gotham. It is easy enough to point to the failures of the previous administration, which allowed over 700 people to die. Cobblepot blackmails District Attorney Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams) into joining his campaign. Dent flatly refuses, until Cobblepot blackmails him with a folder of his psychological profile. Dent has a split personality he keeps under control, but which is slowly taking over despite his medication. The public would not support such a man for District Attorney. Dent relents, and pledges to join the Cobblepot campaign.
Later, Bruce Wayne runs into Selina Kyle while on tour in the Gotham Museum. Kyle is the head curator, and Bruce feels a spark that has gone out of his relationship with Vicki Vale. There is something about Selina Kyle that he does not feel in Vicki Vale; a unique bond. Bruce meets Kyle for late night walks and dinners. Though Selina Kyle initially seeks to lure Bruce Wayne like a femme fatale, she does sincerely fall for him. This strains her relationship with Penguin. Unbeknownst to Bruce, Kyle is also the world renowned thief known as the Catwoman. Penguin has hired Catwoman as his personal assassin, killing off major figures in the Gotham elite. While staged to look like common robberies, Batman deduces that these thefts all involve one thing: ancient cat statues. In reality, Penguin is intent on uncovering something buried under Wayne Manor, and the statues serve as the key. The police warn Bruce Wayne that he's a likely target. Commissioner Gordon insists on keeping a guard at Wayne Manor to protect Bruce. This makes the job of Batman all the more difficult, as he must discover who is behind these crimes and why.
Using a secret passage, Penguin and Catwoman get into the Batcave. We discover that the secret under Wayne Manor was a treasure accumulated over centuries by the Gotham elite. This also explains why the Batcave exists. The statues had belonged to members of the Court of the Owls: a secret society of the Gotham elite that had been exploiting the city for centuries. The Waynes and the Cobblepots had both been members. When Thomas Wayne refused to go along any further, the society had paid Boss Grissom to take care of the Wayne family. The secret fortune is built on the backs of slaves, misery and human suffering. This is Bruce Wayne's original sin.
Bruce Wayne and Penguin fight. Penguin dies. Catwoman runs off. Some other stuff, and a proper act 3 conclusion ensue. This is all I got. Comments? I think it needs more direction of who wants what, what are they going to do to get it, and why should anyone care. And some threads could be cut.
EDIT:
Let's modify it to this: Cobblepot's entire plan is to take over the gangs, knock out his remaining rivals, and take down Batman, and become the undisputed Boss of Gotham City. And his blackmail of Harvey Dent is to get him to take down Batman; declaring him a criminal, sending the police after him, and maybe blaming him for the crimes Penguin is actually orchestrating.
We open directly from the first Batman movie, around Christmas time. The Joker has been killed in the recent past, and Batmania is sweeping Gotham. Stores are filled with bootleg merchandise, as the mysterious vigilante becomes a tourist attraction for Gotham. It is a time of relative peace in Gotham City. The Joker has decapitated the leadership of the major crime families, and the underworld is in disarray. Batman is sweeping up what's left. However, the Gotham police have an uncomfortable relationship with Batman's vigilantism. Batman has also inspired street vigilantes known as "The Order of the Bat", who try to take matters into their own hands, but with often disastrous results. Bruce Wayne does not like them, nor the resentment they bring to Batman. Here we see the hypocrisy of Batman's existence, which even Bruce is becoming aware of. Alfred playfully points this out. Meanwhile, Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale continue their relationship, but we can sense distance growing between them. Vale loves Bruce Wane, but is it Bruce Wayne or Batman that is the real person? Bruce is thinking about giving up the Batman mantle, and assuming a normal life.
Meanwhile, in prison, Oswald Cobblepot (Bob Hoskins) is using his charms to get an early release. Hoskins is a member of the Gotham elite. The Cobblepot family rivals the Wayne family in terms of prestige. However, Oswald Cobblepot is an arms dealer and the head of a major crime family, going by the alias "The Penguin". While the Joker was murdering his rivals, Cobblepot was safely tucked away in a prison cell. Penguin is what Bruce could have been. He is a selfish, violent playboy who uses his wealth for personal gain and exploitation. Released from prison, Cobblepot is back to his old ways. He intends to fill the vacuum, and take power as the head of the Gotham underworld.
Meanwhile, Cobblepot promotes himself as a reformed man who was never truly a criminal. He promotes his charity work, and uses PR stunts to build his reputation. He goes so far as to announce his intention to run for mayor of Gotham. It is easy enough to point to the failures of the previous administration, which allowed over 700 people to die. Cobblepot blackmails District Attorney Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams) into joining his campaign. Dent flatly refuses, until Cobblepot blackmails him with a folder of his psychological profile. Dent has a split personality he keeps under control, but which is slowly taking over despite his medication. The public would not support such a man for District Attorney. Dent relents, and pledges to join the Cobblepot campaign.
Later, Bruce Wayne runs into Selina Kyle while on tour in the Gotham Museum. Kyle is the head curator, and Bruce feels a spark that has gone out of his relationship with Vicki Vale. There is something about Selina Kyle that he does not feel in Vicki Vale; a unique bond. Bruce meets Kyle for late night walks and dinners. Though Selina Kyle initially seeks to lure Bruce Wayne like a femme fatale, she does sincerely fall for him. This strains her relationship with Penguin. Unbeknownst to Bruce, Kyle is also the world renowned thief known as the Catwoman. Penguin has hired Catwoman as his personal assassin, killing off major figures in the Gotham elite. While staged to look like common robberies, Batman deduces that these thefts all involve one thing: ancient cat statues. In reality, Penguin is intent on uncovering something buried under Wayne Manor, and the statues serve as the key. The police warn Bruce Wayne that he's a likely target. Commissioner Gordon insists on keeping a guard at Wayne Manor to protect Bruce. This makes the job of Batman all the more difficult, as he must discover who is behind these crimes and why.
Using a secret passage, Penguin and Catwoman get into the Batcave. We discover that the secret under Wayne Manor was a treasure accumulated over centuries by the Gotham elite. This also explains why the Batcave exists. The statues had belonged to members of the Court of the Owls: a secret society of the Gotham elite that had been exploiting the city for centuries. The Waynes and the Cobblepots had both been members. When Thomas Wayne refused to go along any further, the society had paid Boss Grissom to take care of the Wayne family. The secret fortune is built on the backs of slaves, misery and human suffering. This is Bruce Wayne's original sin.
Bruce Wayne and Penguin fight. Penguin dies. Catwoman runs off. Some other stuff, and a proper act 3 conclusion ensue. This is all I got. Comments? I think it needs more direction of who wants what, what are they going to do to get it, and why should anyone care. And some threads could be cut.
EDIT:
Let's modify it to this: Cobblepot's entire plan is to take over the gangs, knock out his remaining rivals, and take down Batman, and become the undisputed Boss of Gotham City. And his blackmail of Harvey Dent is to get him to take down Batman; declaring him a criminal, sending the police after him, and maybe blaming him for the crimes Penguin is actually orchestrating.
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