TL Idea: Batman Alternate Actors/Films

Gorrister

Gorrister

Glass Onion said:
Would the Rock really be considered for a role like that? I mean-for a role like that someone like Dwayne Johnson is a bit of a risk.
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Admittedly, I read about it on imdb and...yeah, it wouldn't make sense unless the movie got horribly butchered.

Glass Onion said:
And why Sarah Michelle Gellar as Rachel? If you're going to recast her why not keep Katie Holmes in the role. I know there are those who disliked her performance in Batman Begins-but I think recasting Rachel didn't work to the Dark Knight's benefit. Her death would have had more of an impact had they kept the same Rachel between films. Perhaps the idea is that Michelle-Gellar is more akin to Katie Holmes. (both were the stars of successful 1990's shows which aired on the same network.) or is it an in joke about how WB wanted to cast David Boreanaz as Bruce Wayne?
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Tbf she was considered irl. And I think she would've done fine as Dawes, but arguably she looks even less like Holmes than Gyllenhall. (Even with a dye)

Tbh I was trying to go for a different Dark Knight. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any scrapped plots or ideas online.
 
Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

Gimme two weeks out. I have other business, and I want to be able to post a timeline vignette myself to give an idea of proper format.

Idea:
Batman 1966 gritty reboot. Not like Batman 1989 compared to Batman 1966, but a gritty reboot purely of the material available from the Batman 1966 series.

1-1966-Batmobile.png
 
Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

WI: Batman & Batman Returns Directed By Joel Schumacher.

Schumacher cast Batman roles like a 14 year old creating his dream list of actors to play characters, regardless of fit. Batman is more a character actor thing. Schumacher cast big dumb names instead. If you look at the casting, it fits that mold: Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze, Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy, Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face (who looks like Harvey Dent, but sounds and characterizes nothing like him), Jim Carrey as the Riddler, George Clooney as Batman...

So it'd be an interesting horror experiment to retroactively cast that for Batman I and II, and to extrapolate what kind of neon-colored, superficial character motivation camp BS he would have done with those two film ideas. I'll leave that up to your guys' discussion.

Nic Cage as the Joker? However, that may not work because he wasn't a big box office name in 1989, and was considered a good character actor. Uma Thurman as Catwoman? Because Schumacher thinks she's the most attractive woman in the world. Stallone as Batman? Maybe Mel Gibson to not go too dumb. I don't know about Penguin, because it can't be Danny DeVito, but squat actors aren't big dumb box office names. So who to perfectly miscast for him?
 
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HonestAbe1809

I heard Shumacher wanted to go darker for his films. It's just that Warner Brothers insisted they be more light-hearted to avoid the kind of backlash that Batman Returns got.
 
Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

HonestAbe1809 said:
I heard Shumacher wanted to go darker for his films. It's just that Warner Brothers insisted they be more light-hearted to avoid the kind of backlash that Batman Returns got.
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I know Schumacher wanted to go darker on a potential Batman 5 and more serious than the final cut on Batman Forever, but even the directors cut (that we'll never see) of Batman Forever was irreversibly covered in all the trappings of Schumacher's Batman that I mentioned: lousy casting, and neon, Day-Glo camp. It was more serious, but the Batman Forever we saw was an edit of what Schumacher intended regardless. You may not have the cartoon sound effects...which I didn't pick up on when I was 5 but which are embarrassing and intolerable now. You may have Bruce Wayne getting deep psychological characterization, given all the content that was cut there. And Jim Carrey's Riddler and Tommy Lee Jones' Two Face would be more menacing with some of the content left in, and some of it toned down. But the base problems are still there.

And regardless, it's more a thought experiment for thinking of the horror of a Batman and Batman Returns that feel like Batman Forever and Batman & Robin as they were in final form.
 
Gorrister

Gorrister

Emperor Norton I said:
WI: Batman & Batman Returns Directed By Joel Schumacher.

Schumacher cast Batman roles like a 14 year old creating his dream list of actors to play characters, regardless of fit. Batman is more a character actor thing. Schumacher cast big dumb names instead. If you look at the casting, it fits that mold: Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze, Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy, Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face (who looks like Harvey Dent, but sounds and characterizes nothing like him), Jim Carrey as the Riddler, George Clooney as Batman...

So it'd be an interesting horror experiment to retroactively cast that for Batman I and II, and to extrapolate what kind of neon-colored, superficial character motivation camp BS he would have done with those two film ideas. I'll leave that up to your guys' discussion.

Nic Cage as the Joker? However, that may not work because he wasn't a big box office name in 1989, and was considered a good character actor. Uma Thurman as Catwoman? Because Schumacher thinks she's the most attractive woman in the world. Stallone as Batman? Maybe Mel Gibson to not go too dumb. I don't know about Penguin, because it can't be Danny DeVito, but squat actors aren't big dumb box office names. So who to perfectly miscast for him?
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For a shit Returns you could have -

Emilio Estevez as Batman
Brooke Shields as Catwoman
Marlon Brando as the Penguin
Don Johnson as Harvey Dent

Maybe with a Wayans cameo as Robin?
 
loneranger

loneranger

Ledger Lives

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Batman Begins (2005) - As IOTL
The Dark Knight (2008) - Close to IOTL, but the final fight with Gordon's kids taken hostage and such is with the Joker. Harvey doesn't lose his face or go crazy, but we do lose Rachel. Batman almost kills the Joker, but Gordon stops him.
The Caped Crusader (2010) - Focuses on the trial of the Joker; introduces Harley Quinn as the Joker's court appointed therapist (a small role, for now), Dent slowly goes crazy, and Batman is hunting a serial killer around Gotham. Batman frequently visits the Joker for insight on the killer kinda like Hannibal Lector or the Long Halloween. At some point the Joker scars Harvey and we discover that Harvey Dent is the serial killer - he's gone crazy. Batman takes responsibility for the Dent murders to save Harvey's reputation and the Joker case. The Joker is sentenced to the electric chair at the end of the movie.
The Dark Knight Falls (2012) - "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". This is Batman as the villain as he is hunted by the GCPD which has replaced Jim Gordon (who's soft on Batman). A task force of new Commissioner Ellen Yindel, Officer John Blake, and FBI Agent Edward Nashton coordinate a hunt across Gotham. Nashton secretly releases the Scarecrow to draw Batman out, while Catwoman teases him and commits various robberies throughout the film. Nashton reveals the truth about Harvey Dent (he's a good investigator). At the end of the movie Bane appears seemingly out of nowhere; he was working with Nashton but now betrays him, breaks Batman, and takes over Gotham City. Also Selina betrays Bruce as well.
Gotham Rises (2014) - Covers Batman's rehabilitation as Gotham is split up: Scarecrow, Joker, Bane, and the GCPD all have their own sections of the city. It's fairly similar to the OTL movie / No Man's Land. Each person blames themself for what happened to Batman. Nashton cuts out his own swath of territory separate from the GCPD as he wants to wage direct war on Bane. Batman eventually returns to a Gotham which has proven that it still has heroes as Catwoman and the GCPD try to keep people safe. In the end the Joker appears and kills Bane ("You killed the Batman, that makes me very angry") instead of Selina Kyle doing it. Batman then subdues the Joker and the movie is over. At the end he offers to train John Blake - he's realized that his time as Batman is over.

An aside:
John Blake has a two movie arc through Falls and Rises. He takes various traits from the first three Robins. He starts out with more or less Jason Todd's personality and backstory - he grew up on the streets and is itching for a fight at least at first. Like Tim Drake he figures out Batman's secret identity but decides that he won't tell Nashton for the moment. He then spends most of Rises as sort of our focal character for Gotham City as he does stuff around the city, mellows out, and becomes a hero. By the end his personality has shifted more towards Dick Grayson as he loosens up and becomes jokey in battle.

Basically he's got Grayson's sense of humor, Jason's rage and desire to battle, and Tim's cunning and intelligence.
 

Glass Onion

Harvey Dent's fall is a large part of the dramatic point of the Dark Knight. Without that plot point you're looking at a different film. Considering the film was done by the time Heath Ledger died-I don't think that altering that is needed to save his life.

As I've said before-these films should be paced by about three years unless two films are filmed at the same time.

I'm convinced that The Dark Knight would have been a major hit even without the death of Heath Ledger. The film was a sequel to a more or less successful movie-had one of the great marketing campaigns-and the summer of 2008 was one the best periods for superhero film releases. Might the film have been less successful? Sure. But the film would still have been a larger hit than Batman Begins had been. The question is whether the film is a big enough hit to justify "Inception."

Had Ledger been alive-I think the Nolans would have been thinking about the third film much earlier than they did. But we're probably looking at a 2011 release at the earliest.

I have no idea what such a film would have looked like. They wouldn't have turned to the Riddler which was the major expectation for Batman Begins III up until the decision to cast Tom Hardy as Bane was announced. Nolan thought of the Riddler as a Joker-Knock off. Even with Heath Ledger alive-he's not revisiting that territory.They wouldn't have studiously avoided even mentioning the Joker in the third film either-a Ledger cameo might happen. I think Nolan for the most part likes to keep things "in house" meaning if Inception still happens Tom Hardy and Joseph Gordon-Levitt are still likely to appear in some capacity. At the same time neither Nolan nor the cast wants to be stuck making these films into perpetuity. Meaning the third film is probably still the last one somehow. The film might well be different-but I don't know what direction they would have gone in in terms of who their villain would have been. Conceivably we'd just be looking at a version of the Dark Knight Rises that mentions the Joker's fate in some aside.
 
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loneranger

loneranger

Most of what I said comes from the production section on the Dark Knight's wiki page - the potential split in the film, Dent's survival, making Nolan want to quit, etc.

IMO the film doesn't have to be changed that much. Have Joker focus a little bit more on Gordon (ala Killer Joke) as he's trying to break the whole trio.

You are right about the timing, though.

Perhaps the split TDK films are filmed together (so a 2008,2009 release) then the split TDKR is also filmed together for a 2012/2013 release.
 

ANARCHY_4_ALL

Glass Onion said:
Harvey Dent's fall is a large part of the dramatic point of the Dark Knight. Without that plot point you're looking at a different film. Considering the film was done by the time Heath Ledger died-I don't think that altering that is needed to save his life.

As I've said before-these films should be paced by about three years unless two films are filmed at the same time.

I'm convinced that The Dark Knight would have been a major hit even without the death of Heath Ledger. The film was a sequel to a more or less successful movie-had one of the great marketing campaigns-and the summer of 2008 was one the best periods for superhero film releases. Might the film have been less successful? Sure. But the film would still have been a larger hit than Batman Begins had been. The question is whether the film is a big enough hit to justify "Inception."

Had Ledger been alive-I think the Nolans would have been thinking about the third film much earlier than they did. But we're probably looking at a 2011 release at the earliest.

I have no idea what such a film would have looked like. They wouldn't have turned to the Riddler which was the major expectation for Batman Begins III up until the decision to cast Tom Hardy as Bane was announced. Nolan thought of the Riddler as a Joker-Knock off. Even with Heath Ledger alive-he's not revisiting that territory.They wouldn't have studiously avoided even mentioning the Joker in the third film either-a Ledger cameo might happen. I think Nolan for the most part likes to keep things "in house" meaning if Inception still happens Tom Hardy and Joseph Gordon-Levitt are still likely to appear in some capacity. At the same time neither Nolan nor the cast wants to be stuck making these films into perpetuity. Meaning the third film is probably still the last one somehow. The film might well be different-but I don't know what direction they would have gone in in terms of who their villain would have been. Conceivably we'd just be looking at a version of the Dark Knight Rises that mentions the Joker's fate in some aside.
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You could introduce Dent in Batman Begins. Which would make the most sense. His downfall in the Dark Knight would elicit more sympathy if we had just seen him be a hero in the first film. This allows for more Two-Face in the Dark Knight as there would be no need to establish him as a hero. We just see his downfall and madness.
 
loneranger

loneranger

ANARCHY_4_ALL said:
You could introduce Dent in Batman Begins. Which would make the most sense. His downfall in the Dark Knight would elicit more sympathy if we had just seen him be a hero in the first film. This allows for more Two-Face in the Dark Knight as there would be no need to establish him as a hero. We just see his downfall and madness.
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Hell, replace Rachel with Harvey. Not the romance (well, you could). Bruce Wayne has never been a character who does well with romance stories (IMHO). This will make Harvey a
  • Childhood friend of Bruce's
  • With a strong moral compass
  • In line to be District Attorney
Of course, the butterflies start accumulating pretty fast during The Dark Knight. Maybe the "jealousy" aspect could be changed to Dent courting the approval of Oswald Cobblepot. Bruce feels like Dent is going against his moral fiber by seeking the help of an (admittedly calm in comparison to the others) mob boss. Dent feels that even with the Batman there's still crime elements - hell maybe he's soft on the type of crime Cobblepot represents (gambling, escorts, non-violent crime, etc). The Joker could spend equal time trying to break down both Harvey and James Gordon (the latter more like the Killing Joke as I mentioned earlier).
 

Napoleonrules

Banned
I'd love to see Michael Weatherly (most famous for playing Tony DiNozzo on NCIS) play the Joker. There was an episode where he did an imitation of Nicholson and did a Nicholson big grin like from the Shining, and I just thought HE should be the Joker in a Batman movie. Since the latest Superman vs Batman movie (SPOILER ALERT DONT READ FURTHER) shows that it takes place after the Joker has killed Robin and the Joker has himself been killed one assumes we won't have a Joker anytime soon.
 
Emperor Norton I

Emperor Norton I

A few sporadic thoughts:

1) I think the big problem with the Batman first franchise films is when the directors made it too personally their thing. Batman is certainly a Tim Burton film, but it is more how Tim Burton interprets the concepts. Batman Returns is really a Tim Burton film, and in a different sense from Batman; Tim Burton made his own film that so happened to be Batman. Penguin was a "London After Midnight" monster man, and both he and Catwoman had totally different origins and were different characters from their namesakes. Batman Forever was still Schumacher's attempt at doing a Batman film, albeit in a Joel Schumacher style (for good but mostly ill). Batman & Robin was really a Joel Schumacher film.

2) Back in the 1980s, albeit likely fan rumor, the person rumored to be set to play Catwoman was Cher.

3) I had the idea of Cannon Film's Batman. Cannon was low to mid budget, had every film set up for Charles Bronson or Chuck Norris, and engaged in the 80s fad of off-degree adaptations. By which I mean those film adaptations that just refused to do what their source content did, and veered off for seemingly no reason except studio stubbornness. For example, the Super Mario Bros film, Cannon's Captain America (where the Red Skull was a geriatric Italian fascist, part of a cabal that killed JFK, RFK and MLK), or Cannon's planned Spider-Man adaptation where the lead character was set to be a mutated arachnid man fighting a mad scientist who was making man-animals in a horror film.
 
loneranger

loneranger

That makes me wonder what a modern Burton-Batman film would be and I suddenly imagined Johnny Depp as Bruce Wayne and Helena Bonham Carter as Catwoman.

Not a bad image, mind you. :D
 
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