TL: Black Hammers on the Adriatic

Vōdenus, god stridenes, vekədh myk.
"Wodan, god of war, watch over me"; inscription on a votive sword found in the Venedo swamplands.

My travels took me past Etruscan lands, over the borders of our Empire, and into the land of of the Atermallei(1), who call themselves Duediscus(2).
While their borders contain fertile farmlands, the central place of this people consists of west swamps, as far as the eyes can see.
Our company rode over the narrow paths, wary of the dark pools above which strange lights, which are call Elbis(3), fly.
We soon reached the coast, if one call call it that, as there is no clear border between swamp and sea. The sea was calm, but covered in thick clouds. I paid for transit at the docks to the main city. The boat we were in was very wide and shallow; it could carry all of our fellowship at once. Soon, the clouds opened and a great wall appeared before us. It seemed our boat was going to crash into it, and I, your writer, was going to drown, but the sailors steered the bow away, while laughing cruelly.

"Now you can admire our stonework", they said, and verily, we were close enough to touch the great stone walls.
While not as magnificent as those surrounding our city, they looked sturdy enough to withstand the tides and the storms.
Eventually, our boat reached a great opening in the wall, were large piers straddled a human-built bay .
The sailors moored and we went off the boat. A man with a great grey beard walked toward us and greeted us.
"Helid(4), stranger. I salute you here in this city of Venetoborcus(5)." And we went with him into the city.

-from the travelling log of Lucius Balbus Viator, translated literally from Latin.

1. Black Hammers, based on their old tribal name. Whether or not 'Black Hammers' is a folky etymology of *Swarthamarōz is lost to history.
2. Actually Dhödiskus, cognate with 'Deutsch' and 'Dutch'.
3. Actually Elwis, 'elves'. What a Germanic tribe thinks will-o'-the-wisps are when they've been stuck in a swamp for six generations.
4. Actually Həliedh, cognate with 'hail'.
5. Actually Venedoborkus, the latter part being cognate with 'burg'.


venedo.png


I got a bit bored with researching WW2 so I decided to make a tiny con-lang and a city to go with it. Basically, around 500 BC a Germanic tribe of my invention called the *Swarthamarōz travels from Scandinavia into Europe, over the alps and builds a city in the Venetian Lagoon, absorbing the local Venetic population. Yes, it'd be more realistic if they were themselves absorbed by the locals, but I'm getting tired by all the instances of Normanism in Indo-European history. Besides, this is more interesting.

As a result, their language develops isolated from the other Germanic languages and forms its own Southern Germanic branch, undergoing some influence from their neighboring Celtic and Etrusking languages (and culture!). Balbus Viator's travel log takes place in about 250 BC, when the Romans have conquered Etruria and contact and trade with between the Atermallei and the Romans has already been established. However, the Punic Wars are still raging, and the Romans want to secure the lands to the north of the Po river. So, 500 BC is the actua PoD, but 250 BC is when written history changes.
I'm not sure when I'll be able to actually start working on the TL in detail; considering this is a secondary project, I'll just update whenever I feel like it.
 
It's an interesting idea, but:

How do you plan on explaining how a migrant Germanic tribe from Scandinavia made it to Italy without 1. settling somewhere else first, or 2. getting killed by another larger tribe?

If your fictional Germanic tribe was to standard of the time, it would probably be close to 60,000 men women and children. If it was moving or migrating, it would probably need a solid reason to do so. At such an early time, the only reason I can think of would be being ousted by another larger tribe.

So why did they continue to wander so far from home instead of just settle along the Elbe or Rhine like the other Germanic tribes did about a century or two later? Were they rebuffed by the already present Celtic tribes? If so, their numbers would have gone down still further with every stop and every tribe they encountered who didn't like the way they looked at them. How did they make it past the Alps with numbers still high enough to absorb an already very strong and populous Venetic culture? I'd wager by the time they made it to Italy, their tribe would be only around 30,000 strong. They would have had to have started out in an isolated region to maintain their culture, and their expansion would have had to have been slow in order to create numbers and influence enough to subdue the Veneti.

I'm not saying it can't be done. This is a very novel idea. However, I would hope sufficient research, thought, and planning goes into this to avoid any handwaves and historical inconsistencies.
 
It's an interesting idea, but:

How do you plan on explaining how a migrant Germanic tribe from Scandinavia made it to Italy without 1. settling somewhere else first, or 2. getting killed by another larger tribe?

If your fictional Germanic tribe was to standard of the time, it would probably be close to 60,000 men women and children. If it was moving or migrating, it would probably need a solid reason to do so. At such an early time, the only reason I can think of would be being ousted by another larger tribe.

So why did they continue to wander so far from home instead of just settle along the Elbe or Rhine like the other Germanic tribes did about a century or two later? Were they rebuffed by the already present Celtic tribes? If so, their numbers would have gone down still further with every stop and every tribe they encountered who didn't like the way they looked at them. How did they make it past the Alps with numbers still high enough to absorb an already very strong and populous Venetic culture? I'd wager by the time they made it to Italy, their tribe would be only around 30,000 strong. They would have had to have started out in an isolated region to maintain their culture, and their expansion would have had to have been slow in order to create numbers and influence enough to subdue the Veneti.

I'm not saying it can't be done. This is a very novel idea. However, I would hope sufficient research, thought, and planning goes into this to avoid any handwaves and historical inconsistencies.
I will try, at least. Thanks for the feedback.

My idea is that they're driven to the Gaulish side of the Western Alps partially by some religious prophecy (which is briefly hinted at in the mention of Vodenus), and then the well-documented Celtic invasion that involved masses of people moving from Gaul to the Po Plains pushes them eastward 'till they reach the lagoon. The Venetic culture is a tough one; I chose to go with *Venice in the first place because I read that the population may have spoken a Germanic language. While I actually doubt it, it is an interesting lead.

Furthermore, the Veneti didn't actually settle the swampland of the lagoon; if the Atermallei, who originally hailed from similar terrains in Denmark (even though only a few elders might remember it), only settle the laguna and the area between that and the easternmost part of the northern Po valley river bank, they'll have enough food to feed them and a stable place to protect themselves (well, their rulers) from invasion. Also, they do indeed mingle a bit with the neighbours; votive gifts aren't a Germanic ritual, but it is most definitely North Italian, including Venetic.

Admittedly, the first 100, 250 years of the POD can be a bit far-fetched, but I'll try to make it absolutely plausible from this point on.
 
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I will try, at least. Thanks for the feedback.

My idea is that they're driven to the Gaulish side of the Western Alps partially by some religious prophecy (which is briefly hinted at in the mention of Vodenus), and then the well-documented Celtic invasion that involved masses of people moving from Gaul to the Po Plains pushes them eastward 'till they reach the lagoon. The Venetic culture is a tough one; I chose to go with *Venice in the first place because I read that the population may have spoken a Germanic language. While I actually doubt it, it is an interesting lead.

Furthermore, the Veneti didn't actually settle the swampland of the lagoon; if the Atermallei, who originally hailed from similar terrains in Denmark (even though only a few elders might remember it), only settle the laguna and the area between that and the easternmost part of the northern Po valley river bank, they'll have enough food to feed them and a stable place to protect themselves (well, their rulers) from invasion. Also, they do indeed mingle a bit with the neighbours; votive gifts aren't a Germanic ritual, but it is most definitely North Italian.

Admittedly, the first 100, 250 years of the POD can be a bit far-fetched, but I'll try to make it absolutely plausible from this point on.

Well, it would certainly be a hard journey, but like I said, not impossible.

I'd try Tyr instead of Odin. Odin wasn't really a central god in the Norse/Germanic pantheon until relatively late when he usurped Tyr's role as the central god of War.

Also, avoid using the term Venice in your TL. Venice, as a city, was not founded until the dying days of Rome in the 5th century AD. Verona was one of the larger Veneti cities.

So, if they make it into the Alps, they will be contending with Ligurians, Rhaetians, and Etruscans. I suppose that is something to keep in mind. Perhaps these germanics settle in an isolated mountain pass, and then are driven out by the Celts. I suppose if they remain in the lagoon, they could remain fairly long without being absorbed by another more dominant culture, hopefully long enough to grow in enough number and strength to spread.
 
Well, it would certainly be a hard journey, but like I said, not impossible.

I'd try Tyr instead of Odin. Odin wasn't really a central god in the Norse/Germanic pantheon until relatively late when he usurped Tyr's role as the central god of War.

Also, avoid using the term Venice in your TL. Venice, as a city, was not founded until the dying days of Rome in the 5th century AD. Verona was one of the larger Veneti cities.

So, if they make it into the Alps, they will be contending with Ligurians, Rhaetians, and Etruscans. I suppose that is something to keep in mind. Perhaps these germanics settle in an isolated mountain pass, and then are driven out by the Celts. I suppose if they remain in the lagoon, they could remain fairly long without being absorbed by another more dominant culture, hopefully long enough to grow in enough number and strength to spread.
My ideas exactly. Hence the asterisk before *Venice; I only used that word as a reference to OTL. Venedoborkus is, even though its name betrays otherwise, not originally a Venetic settlement. That's reason enough for me to think about changing its name. :eek:

I actually explicitly chose Woden in this role. Tyr was a war god, but he's also a Zeus analogue; I'd have him be the god of justice and rulers, while Woden is a Mars analogue, or even, due to Greek influences, similar to Ares; more about bloodlust than wise leadership.

But yeah, initially, they'll be closer to the situation you describe. I'm actually half thinking of switching the name to Thor, who is also a war god, but a more down-to-earth popular one at that. Truth is, I'm also having a conlang involved, and Vodenus is the only name of a diety I've yet 'translated'. :eek:

Anyway, still got a lot of work to do in finalising my concept before I get down to really writing stuff. I've also got an exam on Fiscal Administrative Law coming up, see.;) I am definitely going through with this.
 
How outstanding is their culture? I would imagine, if it is very different and very able to spread compared to surrounding cultures, we could see, no matter what the fate of your tribe, this TL's Rome being influence in a positive manner by people who might have otherwise been seen as barbarians. This could have a lot of good repercussions, as the Romans treat the barbarians in less... barbaric ways.

This is a cool idea.
 
I actually explicitly chose Woden in this role. Tyr was a war god, but he's also a Zeus analogue; I'd have him be the god of justice and rulers, while Woden is a Mars analogue, or even, due to Greek influences, similar to Ares; more about bloodlust than wise leadership.
I'm guessing, then, you know that the name "Tyr" is cognate with "Zeus" and the "Iu" part of "Iupiter"? That's a middling obscure piece of knowledge, AFAIK.

Did you know, even as late as Iceland, that the cult of Oðinn was minor there?



As for a random X tribe showing up in a fairly random place, I'd say it's entirely possible. Look at the Apache and Navaho in North America - both Athapaskan speakers, whose closest relatives are in northern Canada, north of the Cree.
 
Part 1, Final Version

Dhonarus, god stridenes, vekədh myk.
"Thor, god of war, watch over me"; inscription on a votive sword found in the Venedo swamplands.

My travels took me past Etruscan lands, over the borders of our Empire, and into the land of of the Atermallei(1), who call themselves Duediscus(2).*
While their borders contain fertile farmlands, the central place of this people consists of wet swamps, as far as the eyes can see.
Our company rode over the narrow paths, wary of the dark pools above which strange lights, which are call Elbis(3), fly.
We soon reached the coast, if one call call it that, as there is no clear border between swamp and sea. The sea was calm, but covered in thick clouds. I paid for transit at the docks to the main city. The boat we were in was very wide and shallow; it could carry all of our fellowship at once. Soon, the clouds opened and a great wall appeared before us. It seemed our boat was going to crash into it, and I, your writer, was going to drown, but the sailors steered the bow away, while laughing cruelly.

"Now you can admire our stonework", they said, and verily, we were close enough to touch the great stone walls.*
While not as magnificent as those surrounding our city, they looked sturdy enough to withstand the tides and the storms.
Eventually, our boat reached a great opening in the wall, were large piers straddled a man-built bay .
The sailors moored the boat ed thand we stepped on land. A man with a great grey beard walked toward us and greeted us.
"Helid(4), stranger. I salute you here in this city of Sevisborcus(5)." And we went with him into the great city.

-from the of Lucius Balbus Viator, translated literally.

1. Black Hammers, based on their old tribal name. Whether or not 'Black Hammers' is a folk etymology of *Swarthamarōz is lost to history.
2. Dhödiskus, cognate with 'Deutsch' and 'Dutch'.
3. Elwis, 'elves'. What a Germanic tribe thinks will-o'-the-wisps are when they've been stuck in a swamp for quite a few generations.
4. Həliedh, cognate with 'hail'.
5. Sevisborxs, the latter part being cognate with 'burg'.

venedo.png
 
I'm guessing, then, you know that the name "Tyr" is cognate with "Zeus" and the "Iu" part of "Iupiter"? That's a middling obscure piece of knowledge, AFAIK.
Aye, but I'm very interested in the topic of Indo-European religions. ;) There even was a Celtic equivalent. The Romans interpreted his name as 'Dis Pater', thinking it stood for 'lord of the underworld', even though he was basically the Celtic variant of Jupiter. Interpretatio romana was inaccurate like that, though I can't exactly blame them; most sources we have (like Tacitus' Germania, which I now have on eBook) are second-hand accounts at best.

Since my study's calmed down a bit, I can perhaps update more often. I try to have a biweekly schedule (I am actually planning things, which is a first), but that's less a rule and more a guideline. However, expect the next update somewhere in the next couple of days; I've almost finished that one.
 
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Excuse me for triple-posting, but I've got a new update.

Part 2, Voices in the Air

“The man introduced himself to me as Siquardus(1), and he was a mercantile friend of my patron. I asked him if he could show me the city; “res pecuniae prae rebus voluptatum”, dixit(2). While he and my patron went in an office near the docks to discuss business, I had time to study the people of this city.

The air near the docks was filled with voices in many tongues; for there were many traders and other visitors. There were Celts from the West, Veneti from the North(3), Illyrians and Istrians from the East, Etruscans from Adria(4), Romans from Ariminium(5), and Greeks from Ancona(6) and beyond. There were many different and peculiar peoples in the streets, though none quite as odd as the Atermallei themselves.

Their voices were not dissimilar to those of dogs; filled as they were with baking and growling. Their clothes were not refined as well; even the nobiles had clothing that was mostly practical, not beatiful. Many of them had yellow or red hair and blue eyes, and strong bodies, though some showed more than a trace of local blood. All let their hair grown long; the men braided their hair and let their beards go freely; having wilder beards than even the Greeks. All men went about armed, displaying their virility and strength.

In their mores they were most uncultured, and they took great joy in inebritiation. However, they excelled in hospitality, and in hard work. Every man took pride in his work and strove to be the best. They were not above displaying and boasting about their own achievements and those of their people, filling the air with self-directed praise.”

-from the works of Lucius Balbus Viator.

1) Sichverdus, from 'Sigiward', 'Sig' meaning 'victory' (compare German 'Sieg') and 'ward' meaning 'guardian'.
2) 'Business before pleasure'.
3) Their capital was at Patavium, modern Padua.
4) Modern Adria, to the south of Sevisborcus, on the north bank of the mouth of the Po River.
5) Modern Rimini, at the time a recemt Roman colonia.
6) Still called Ancona today; it was a fully Greek city at the time.

Note on their language:
The Atermallei speak (or spoke) a language that branched off from the other Germanic languages in about 420 BC; as a result, it is quite archaic, retaining most grammatical features apart from the dual numbers. As there are no records of any Germanic language untill about 600 years later (excluding a scarce amount of words in writing and of course names), I go by modifying the reconstructed Proto-Germanic language. Quite amateurisly, I might add, though I do try to be consistent.

Their presence in Northern Italy has had some effect on their language, but mostly in the ways of vocabulary. What has greatly impacted their language are the Northern Italic alphabets, which they adopted since there was no native germanic script. I fashioned the Atermalleic script from fusing the Venetic and Etruscan alphabets, injecting Greek influences (as they were everywhere those days), and finished it off by applying some creative license. Any coincedences to runic script are coincedental; it's highly likely that the 'futhark' we all know is descendant from the same Italic alphabets.

southgermanicalphabet.png

Yes, it has 28 characters.

dudorix.png

My name in South Germanic.

Note on Lucius Balbus Viator:
He's a character of my creation, a son from a wealthy if still Plebeian family (father was a homo novus) who follows his patron Claudius Quinctilius , meaning to see the rrest of the world and write about it, incidentally making money out of that as well as making him renowned. He's not that skilled of a writer or orator, but he's gut the guts to explore the world and try new things. His biggest flaw is the tendency to jubmle his narrative and describe things using information he learned only later, discussing things on a topic-by-topic base while trying to tie that to a narrative of his travels. Also, he does embellish somewhat.

For the record, Lucius is his praenomen, Balbus his nomen, while Viator is an agnomen he received after writing his books, meaning 'traveller'.
 
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