TL: A Different Louis XVI

So I can leave it as is, then? Or should I change it as @Valena suggests? Because, TBH, calling the ship the "January" seems a bit silly. I think there were British ships (of various size - from schooners to ships-of-the-line) that were captured from the French during the Napoleonic Wars which had their French names retained (a ship called the Corageux might stay the HMS La Corageux when commissioned into the British navy, for instance), but others, who had names that we're too revolutionary or just too damn French (think of a ship in the Britannic Majesty's fleet called the Ça Ira (the Ça Ira was too badly damaged to see active duty, so the name stayed)) often had their names changed AIUI.

Polar Star is relatively neutral. Hence why I figured the name, whether Danish or Russian, could stand.

Sorry for the confusion: author of the quoted article was sloppy (and, as I found out, not just in the ship's name). The correct name was «Святой Иануарий» ("Saint. Januarius" - to commemorate a birthday of Catherine II which was at the day of St. Januarius).

From this point things became confusing: in the article this was one of 2 ships-of-the-line had been built in Archangelsk in 1780. Description makes them look like the ships of "Glory of Russia" category (66 guns, approximately 160 feet long; see the picture below). However, the only ship of that name which belonged to this series had been built in St-Petersburg in 1763, was a part of the Baltic fleet, participated in the 1st Mediterranean expedition (leaving a solid record), never was in Archangelsk, never had a commander with the name mentioned in the article (and I doubt that captain-lieutenant would be in charge of a battleship) and was sold for wood in 1775 few years prior to the whole episode with Brunswick family which happened in 1780.

Author provides a correct name of its sister-ship «Не тронь меня», which was, indeed, built in Archangelsk (but shipbuilder's name was different) and later transferred to the Baltic fleet (again, left a traceable record) but, again, it was built in 1763, not 1780, and served until 1775. In other words, the whole "conspiracy theory" does not stand up to the fact checking and does not make too much sense, anyway.

(record of the service of every ship of this series is available in http://russiaflot.ru/korparlin/96-5866-pushechnye-korabli-tip-slava-rossii.html).

My point was that it was rather difficult to confuse a ship-of-the-line with 2 decks and 66 guns with a single deck frigate which at that period had under 30 guns (frigates with 44 guns appeared in the Russian navy only in 1805). Presumably frigate «Полярная звезда» had only 14 guns.

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As for the names, this series included ships with the names "Don't touch me" (Не тронь меня) and "Foundation of a well-being" (Основание благополучия) and nobody laughed.
 
Who am I to dictate specifics of your timeline? But this was (presumably) a small frigate with 14 guns. Would it be glorious enough for you? :winkytongue:

Hey, in the Ramage series (by Dudley Pope) which I read as a teenager, Nicholas Ramage gets a bunch of stuff done at Trafalgar with a sloop/brig (which IIRC is still smaller than a frigate - like taking two Spanish frigates hostage, for instance. In one book he uses a schooner to capture a French ship of the line (which admittedly is half sinking), so it's a case of it's not the size of the dog (or ship, rather) in the fight but the fight in the dog/ship. And that's while Ramage is still a lieutenant.

And if it was built after 1763, then it's after the POD (which is in 1761), so it could be laid down the same time and date and be a completely different/larger ship.
 
Have been quite busy recently so haven't had a chance to keep up with the thread. Will read through and get back to you. Thanks for keeping it coming!
 
I really appreciated the family tree, but it was a little hard to read. Could you indent the generations to make it easier to read?
 
I've been thinking of a post about state of culture in Europe at the time, sort of like @Carp did in their Harlot Empress TL. I mean, there's a lot of building - for instance the Tuileries-Louvre complex - going on that wasn't OTL, plus a lot that was OTL but not here - Antoinette's esconced at Marly instead of Petit Trianon, for instance, and La Hameau was never built because of the court's return to Paris (she also hasn't bought the chateau de Saint-Cloud TTL).

Also, musically speaking, Cimarosa has wound up in Berlin by way of Russia, and I've been doing a bit of reading up on the composers of the time (see my Haydn's French National Symphony thread), and several of them's OTL circumstances have been directly affected by the political shake-ups. Domenico Cimarosa is one, although he still winds up in Russia, he's there from considerably earlier instead of Paisiello (who was Cimarosa's predecessor if I'm not mistaken). Paisiello was also disliked by Queen Maria Karoline in Naples, so her change is going to mean something to him (not sure if it'll be for good or ill). Antoinette played a big role in popularizing Glück's music in Paris OTL, but before that, the Italians (Piccini and Sacchini) had reigned supreme.

Antoinette's patronizing Vigée-Lebrun as OTL, but there are two rival artistic fons honorem at the French court as well - the queen (Antoinette) and the king's mistress (La Polignac or Massalska) - so that could also be interesting to explore. Here, I was thinking that Antoinette's patronage goes to Glück and French or German composers (Glück, Saint-Georges, Grétry etc), while the mistress patronizes others (Piccini, Paisiello), but with two very different veins of painting/sculpture etc emerging.

Or would this be distracting from the flow of events?
 
I've been thinking of a post about state of culture in Europe at the time, sort of like @Carp did in their Harlot Empress TL. I mean, there's a lot of building - for instance the Tuileries-Louvre complex - going on that wasn't OTL, plus a lot that was OTL but not here - Antoinette's esconced at Marly instead of Petit Trianon, for instance, and La Hameau was never built because of the court's return to Paris (she also hasn't bought the chateau de Saint-Cloud TTL).

Also, musically speaking, Cimarosa has wound up in Berlin by way of Russia, and I've been doing a bit of reading up on the composers of the time (see my Haydn's French National Symphony thread), and several of them's OTL circumstances have been directly affected by the political shake-ups. Domenico Cimarosa is one, although he still winds up in Russia, he's there from considerably earlier instead of Paisiello (who was Cimarosa's predecessor if I'm not mistaken). Paisiello was also disliked by Queen Maria Karoline in Naples, so her change is going to mean something to him (not sure if it'll be for good or ill). Antoinette played a big role in popularizing Glück's music in Paris OTL, but before that, the Italians (Piccini and Sacchini) had reigned supreme.

Antoinette's patronizing Vigée-Lebrun as OTL, but there are two rival artistic fons honorem at the French court as well - the queen (Antoinette) and the king's mistress (La Polignac or Massalska) - so that could also be interesting to explore. Here, I was thinking that Antoinette's patronage goes to Glück and French or German composers (Glück, Saint-Georges, Grétry etc), while the mistress patronizes others (Piccini, Paisiello), but with two very different veins of painting/sculpture etc emerging.

Or would this be distracting from the flow of events?
Well it is interesting...
 
Well seing the effect who the butterflies have on the international cultural scene...

I'm glad you agree :)

I don't think the changes will be too wild, just a few tweaks to what basically happened OTL - Cimarosa's time in Russia or Paisiello's lack thereof, for instance. Lack of French involvement in the ARW could be interesting, since if one listens to works by some early American composers (i.e. those active early enough that they were still born in a British colony, or still left England/Scotland to go to a British colony), there's a lot of quoting of French melodies - La Marsellaise is an obvious one, but "Malbrouk s'en va-t'en guerre" is another. On the other end of the world (so to speak), Josef Elsner, a Silesian composer, was so involved in composing and teaching for Polish audiences (he taught Chopin and Dobrzynski) that he came to be regarded as Polish, even though his father was German and his mother Czech.

Antoinette not having Trianon or Saint-Cloud and instead being given Marly will both save Marly (which by the POD was pretty rundown and the ponds were a breeding ground for mosquitos before they were filled in) and result in some changes. Marly is bigger than the bijou Petit Trianon (more in line with the Grande Trianon) so what she does with it will be different. Likewise, the court's move to Paris and the renovations/building at the Tuileries-Louvre complex will also have an effect on things. The neo-classical style is often associated with Louis XVI's reign - but as one book I read said, "the [neo-classical] style emerged already in the reign of Louis XV and by the fall of the Bastille, where what had been the craze only years before, was now considered old fashioned".

Still, I was thinking about the "Sturm und Drang" ideas of 1780s Germany spreading from there.
 
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