Perhaps someone is bound to adopt to Browning Hi Power (which in headcanon, the Confederates developed the Hi Power on their own)
TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Perhaps someone is bound to adopt to Browning Hi Power (which in headcanon, the Confederates developed the Hi Power on their own)
Isn't it canon that the US just ended up adopting the Stahlhelm?
Which reminds me of one thing that really bothered me about reading the ww1 book of TL 191. It's stated that the US didn't really develop any combat aircraft of it's own in WW1 and instead just manufactured and used German designs.
There were several things that didn't make sense to me in TL-191, the US not building its own planes (were the Wright Brothers butterflied?) but developing the stahlhelm which IOTL was based on a Germanic knight's helmet?
It would've made more sense to me if Browning had settled in the CSA and made guns for the CS than the CS designing Browning weapons on their own.
Overall I did enjoy the TL-191 series but little things like that did bug me a bit.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Wright Brothers being butterflied probably helps US Aviation rather than hinders it. The Wrights were notorious patent trolls who massively set back the US aviation industry by suing the crap out of everyone else until circumstances (WWI) prevented them from doing so
I was just talking in general terms across several different nations.
The individuals I mentioned are never mentioned in the books and the existence of their inventions are never clarified.
It's implied (if not blatantly stated) that the Americans adopted German-style uniform and equipment during the FGW and presumably during the SGW.
I don't know about the airplanes, but I can imagine they'd be similar to German ones.
I always assumed that the USA made copies of Stahlhem from the Germans.*
Speaking that, there is something that I have wanted to bring up for a long time since I read the books.
In real-life, it is known that the British invented tanks [landships were their original name] and were experimented on in 1915 and used in battle in 1916, the French used theirs in 1917, and the Germans were slow to catch up until the first Tank vs. Tank battle on April 24, 1918 during the Second Battle of Villers-Bretonneux. By the time the Germans had prototypes and produced the tanks, it was between April 1917-September 1917, respectively. That's around the same time in which the First Great War ended in TL-191.
In the books, it is implied that the Americans invented their version of the tank first, instead of the Germans. That's not possible due to Germany's lack of interest in them until the final two years of the war. I can understand that the British may have shared blueprint ideas with the Confederates, but the Germans had nothing to share with the Americans at the time of the Barrel Roll Offensive.
Dr. Turtledove should have added some detail into how it could have been plausible for the Americans to make their own tanks without German help. Maybe it would have been more interesting had they developed their own version of the tank that didn't look like either the Mk I-IV or the AV7.
*I'd like to go into detail about the historical use of WWI helmets on both sides in TL-191, soon.
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RamscoopRaider
Donor
I think Irving Morrel comes up with the US Helmet design, mentioned in one of the books, based on his experiences. That I say is just an example of convergent evolution and form following function. It probably in the books is not actually a Stahlhelm, but something similar enough, while on the covers and in art that is used for a reference
How exactly is it not possible for the US to be the ones to invent tanks first? The US has a substantially larger motor vehicles industry, larger steel industry, larger oil industry, more industry in general all things needed to make tanks. The first commercially successful tracked vehicle was American in design, the Lombard Log Hauler, and the Holt Tractor was the best selling tracked vehicle before WWI, and also the basis for the OTL A7V. So given that why can't the Americans see a need for a tank before the Germans? The US has more surplus resources to devote to the problem
I didn't say that it was not possible for the tank (barrel) to be invented in the USA first, instead of in Britain.
I simply stated that the cut-and-paste invention of an American barrel from an OTL 1917-1918 German tank was not possible due to differences in German goals and funding for these weapons.
However, I suppose that the "Convergent Evolution" idea that you mentioned may be a reasonable explanation.
Truly, what ARE the odds that Custer & company could have thought out an OTL copy well before the Germans, much less the British?
It's not that bad of a flaw in TL-191; it just needed a more detailed explanation, at least for me who happens to know a little bit more about the history of tanks.
If anything does bother me a lot from the Great War trilogy*, it is the lack of mention and use of Zeppelins in North America. The United States has large Helium reserves that they could have used!
*Not including Italy's neutrality... (-.-)
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RamscoopRaider
Donor
Functionally getting something similar to the A7V isn't that unlikely. The mechanicals of the A7V were based on...The American Holt Tractor, which is the most common tracked vehicle in the US at the time, so a logical place for the US to start. The US would also have mountains of similar 57mm/6 pounder guns sitting around, and the one gun forward with 360 degree machine gun cover is a pretty simple idea. It looking as close as it did to the A7V is a bit coincidental, though again we don't get more than a rough description. It might be that it actually looks quite different than the A7V, but the short description we get is not enough to tell
The US beating the British could just be ease in transportation, the British Rhomboids were AFAIK too big for British railway loading gauges so transporting them was difficult, while the A7V could fit on US loading gauges. So even if both are developed at the same time, the US ones are getting to the front quicker
Like RamscoopRaider said, it was Morrel who came up with the idea for a steel helmet and I suppose it could be different from the stahlhelm design but the way its described in the book, it sounds like a stahlhelm.
RamscoopRaider makes a good case for US barrel development too IMO.
But who invented the first airplane in TL-191? Do you recall if that was mentioned?
No, I’m sure it was still the Wright who invented the first airplane, but that doesn’t explain why the US had no domestic airplane development during GW1
For the American FGW helmet, I could see it resembling the Austrian M17 Stahlhelm
Agree.
If the US helmet isn't the stahlhelm, then it might be something simpler like this motorcycle helmet.
For the American FGW helmet, I could see it resembling the Austrian M17 Stahlhelm
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Well no domestic fighter development, we have one Pilot POV, who flies army air at the front, and moves into fighters once they become a distinct type from recon. We don't see what the US uses for trainers, Naval patrol, recon or bombers , but they presumably still have some
Since the Confederacy and other Radius Nations would most likely use the Hispano Suiza HS. 404 autocannon, perhaps the Union would end up using this thing (or have a license production for it) for it's primary 20mm autocannon, the Madsen M/38.
These are my ideas for three different Union Fighters.
A Bell P-39 Aircobra belonging to the 61st Fighter Group during the Pittsburgh Austerity, circa 1942.
Developed in the late 1930s, the Bell P-39 was originally rejected by the US Air Force in favor of the Curtiss P-27 Sky Shark, the plane was none the less was ordered by the Irish Air Corps and Brazil in late 1940, ordering 20 and 120 airframes respectively. Upon the outbreak of hostilities in the summer of 1941, all 140 aircraft would be quickly requisitioned by the Union Air Force due to a serious shortage of modern fighters, and as such, the Union Government would order more Aircobras from Bell. The plane would prove to be a capable warplane in the hands of the Union Pilots. The Aircobra was equipped with an Allison copy of the German DB601 Engine and had an armament of 1 37mm cannon, and four .50 cal machine-guns. A total of 6,562 P-39 fighters would be built from 1940 to 1943.
A Bell P-63 King A Cobra flown by John D. Landers of the 357th Fighter Group over Virginia, circa March of 1944.
The P-63 was a further development of the P-39 fighter which entered service in early 1943. The P-63 King Cobra would prove to be a formidable combat aircraft with it's improved Allison V-1092 inline piston engine (which was developed from the DB601 clone) as well as it's capability to perform ground-attack missions with a payload of 1,500 pounds of bombs or rockets as well as it's 37mm cannon, proving useful against armored vehicles. A total 4,502 aircraft would be produced from 1943 to 1944. This aircraft would be widely exported to other nations after the war such as Brazil, Quebec, Honduras, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Portugal, Venezuela, and Liberia.
A North American P-64 from the 2nd Training Group based somewhere in Idaho, circa May of 1943.
Following the Invasion of Ohio by the CSA, the USAF found itself in a bad situation in the terms of the number of modern fighter aircraft thanks to the Pre-War Military Budget Cuts made by the Socialist Federal Government. As well as lacking in sufficient numbers of fighters, there was also the problem of not aircraft being produced to meet the demands. So, the Union Air Force Material Command began looking for alternate aircraft that could be manufactured more quickly and had contacted the North American Aircraft Corporation to create a new fighter. Which the company would quickly develop one from the T-6 Harvard Trainer known as the Model 64, which first took flight in October of 1941, which after a period of further development, was accepted into service as the P-64 in April of 1942. Equipped with a Wright R-1820 engine and armed with two .30 cal and two .50 cal machine-guns along with two 20mm M1941A1 autocannons (a modification to the Madsen M38 autocannon). The fighter would gain a reputation of being a well armed and maneuverable yet slow airplane, often nicknamed as the Bull. A total of 871 aircraft would be produced before production being terminated in September of 1942 due to adequate numbers of more advanced aircraft being produced and the planes would be withdrawn to 2nd Line Duties by the end of the year. In early 1943, 70 aircraft would be transferred to the Quebecois Air Force where they served as frontline aircraft until being supplanted by the Super Sharks and King Cobras in late 1944.
A Bell P-39 Aircobra belonging to the 61st Fighter Group during the Pittsburgh Austerity, circa 1942.
Developed in the late 1930s, the Bell P-39 was originally rejected by the US Air Force in favor of the Curtiss P-27 Sky Shark, the plane was none the less was ordered by the Irish Air Corps and Brazil in late 1940, ordering 20 and 120 airframes respectively. Upon the outbreak of hostilities in the summer of 1941, all 140 aircraft would be quickly requisitioned by the Union Air Force due to a serious shortage of modern fighters, and as such, the Union Government would order more Aircobras from Bell. The plane would prove to be a capable warplane in the hands of the Union Pilots. The Aircobra was equipped with an Allison copy of the German DB601 Engine and had an armament of 1 37mm cannon, and four .50 cal machine-guns. A total of 6,562 P-39 fighters would be built from 1940 to 1943.
A Bell P-63 King A Cobra flown by John D. Landers of the 357th Fighter Group over Virginia, circa March of 1944.
The P-63 was a further development of the P-39 fighter which entered service in early 1943. The P-63 King Cobra would prove to be a formidable combat aircraft with it's improved Allison V-1092 inline piston engine (which was developed from the DB601 clone) as well as it's capability to perform ground-attack missions with a payload of 1,500 pounds of bombs or rockets as well as it's 37mm cannon, proving useful against armored vehicles. A total 4,502 aircraft would be produced from 1943 to 1944. This aircraft would be widely exported to other nations after the war such as Brazil, Quebec, Honduras, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Portugal, Venezuela, and Liberia.
A North American P-64 from the 2nd Training Group based somewhere in Idaho, circa May of 1943.
Following the Invasion of Ohio by the CSA, the USAF found itself in a bad situation in the terms of the number of modern fighter aircraft thanks to the Pre-War Military Budget Cuts made by the Socialist Federal Government. As well as lacking in sufficient numbers of fighters, there was also the problem of not aircraft being produced to meet the demands. So, the Union Air Force Material Command began looking for alternate aircraft that could be manufactured more quickly and had contacted the North American Aircraft Corporation to create a new fighter. Which the company would quickly develop one from the T-6 Harvard Trainer known as the Model 64, which first took flight in October of 1941, which after a period of further development, was accepted into service as the P-64 in April of 1942. Equipped with a Wright R-1820 engine and armed with two .30 cal and two .50 cal machine-guns along with two 20mm M1941A1 autocannons (a modification to the Madsen M38 autocannon). The fighter would gain a reputation of being a well armed and maneuverable yet slow airplane, often nicknamed as the Bull. A total of 871 aircraft would be produced before production being terminated in September of 1942 due to adequate numbers of more advanced aircraft being produced and the planes would be withdrawn to 2nd Line Duties by the end of the year. In early 1943, 70 aircraft would be transferred to the Quebecois Air Force where they served as frontline aircraft until being supplanted by the Super Sharks and King Cobras in late 1944.
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On airplanes, Wright is stated to be a manufacturer of the fighters Johnathan Moss flies, and to be fair, the US didn't exactly churn out world-beating designs in real life WWI either: American pilots had to fly French SPAD fighters, even after the US' entry into the war. Same goes for, well a LOT of US inventory in WWI: the Ford 6-ton tank is pretty much a bolt-for-bolt copy of the FT-17, and then there's the Chauchat machine gun...
Do I see the Confederate or Union armies developing and field testing flakvests for their troops in the SGW?
Heavy Cruisers of the Union Navy during the SGW (Names in Italicized text indicate that they were sunk during the Pacific War, bold for sunk during SGW, blue for completed after the war, and red for cancelled.)
Lansing class (1929)
Ships in the class: USS Lansing and Salt Lake City
Northampton class (1930)
Ships in the class: USS Northamption, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Spokane, Augusta, and Olympia
Portland class (1933)
Ships in the class: Portland and Boston
Seattle class (1934)
Ships in the class: Seattle, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, Quincy, and Vincennes.
USS Madison (1939)
Baltimore class (1943)
Ships in the class: Baltimore, Wichita, Spokane, St. Paul, Indianapolis, Chicago, Fall River, and Toledo.
Oregon City class (1946)
Ships in the class: Oregon City, Columbus, Dayton, Olympia, Bridgeport, and Albany.
Lansing class (1929)
Ships in the class: USS Lansing and Salt Lake City
Northampton class (1930)
Ships in the class: USS Northamption, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Spokane, Augusta, and Olympia
Portland class (1933)
Ships in the class: Portland and Boston
Seattle class (1934)
Ships in the class: Seattle, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, Quincy, and Vincennes.
USS Madison (1939)
Baltimore class (1943)
Ships in the class: Baltimore, Wichita, Spokane, St. Paul, Indianapolis, Chicago, Fall River, and Toledo.
Oregon City class (1946)
Ships in the class: Oregon City, Columbus, Dayton, Olympia, Bridgeport, and Albany.