Anything related to the name Arizona wouldn't exist in TL-191.
TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Anything related to the name Arizona wouldn't exist in TL-191.
well remember in this timeline the US navy isn't constrained by the Panama Canal, which in real life limited the size (and thus firepower) of US battleships.
US naval doctrine (OTL, but TL-191's seems no different) didn't really call for anything close to the Yamato, even the Montanas would have been much more reasonable ships. The 18-inch proposals would have only had the weight and space for five 18"/47 guns, which is a massive trade-off compared to twelve 16"/50s.
REAL-LIFE concepts for 18"/47 gun armed ships, which, if we go by the proposed Montana-class fitting, were still constrained by the Panama Canal, even with the canal's proposed expansion.
the only restriction on US Battleship size in this setting is the height of the Brooklyn Bridge, which is another unsung size factor, but constructing a hull wide and long enough to accommodate a full armament of, let's say, 9-12 18"/47 guns would hardly be outside the scope of US naval construction, especially in an age of a far more militarized USA. Not to mention that hot on the heels of yet another war with Japan, something to counter the IJN's firepower would certainly be on the books.
So for my Union soldier uniform idea I was thinking that for a typical uniform that at least officer's would be wearing knee high, laced riding boots.
But for believability it would probably closer to this.
As for the general cut I thinking something between the OTL Wehrmacht and the Hungarian Army but with the green grey color described in the books.
Now notice the "coloring" on the uniforms collars here? I was thinking about something similar for the US army but with the collar's fabric being the "Union blue" color.
As for the helmet I was thinking about a cross between the Stahlhelm and Iraqi Fedayeen helmet to set it apart from the helmets of otl while still being believable.
Now for the firearm I was thinking of Ingram model 6 submachine gun with the barrel of the Soviet ppsh-40 and a drum magazine. That or keep it accurate to the books and have the soldier armed with the Springfield rifle.
But for believability it would probably closer to this.
As for the general cut I thinking something between the OTL Wehrmacht and the Hungarian Army but with the green grey color described in the books.
Now notice the "coloring" on the uniforms collars here? I was thinking about something similar for the US army but with the collar's fabric being the "Union blue" color.
As for the helmet I was thinking about a cross between the Stahlhelm and Iraqi Fedayeen helmet to set it apart from the helmets of otl while still being believable.
Now for the firearm I was thinking of Ingram model 6 submachine gun with the barrel of the Soviet ppsh-40 and a drum magazine. That or keep it accurate to the books and have the soldier armed with the Springfield rifle.
Nice work! However, that's a short battalion, not a division. And Lt. Michael Pound's platoon were all Mark 3s.I've got something unrelated to the Naval discussion:
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Uh where are you getting that from?
One of the alternative Iowa proposals was 9 18"/47 on 45,000 tons, they just had to drop 5 knots of speed to do it, the same as the 12 16"/50 variant, and both versions had better armor and TDS as the OTL Iowa. So yes you can get 9 18"/47 on a Montana hull, US Naval engineering technology was just flat out better than Japanese which was why Yamato was so huge for its capabilities, US Powerplants had better power to weight and volume ratios, US Homogenous steel was stronger, US armor more consistent. If you used US tech to build Yamato, she would be about the size as Montana
This was based on a layout of the German 501st Panzer Division in Tunisia in 1943.
So for my Union soldier uniform idea I was thinking that for a typical uniform that at least officer's would be wearing knee high, laced riding boots.
But for believability it would probably closer to this.
As for the general cut I thinking something between the OTL Wehrmacht and the Hungarian Army but with the green grey color described in the books.
Now notice the "coloring" on the uniforms collars here? I was thinking about something similar for the US army but with the collar's fabric being the "Union blue" color.
View attachment 506877
As for the helmet I was thinking about a cross between the Stahlhelm and Iraqi Fedayeen helmet to set it apart from the helmets of otl while still being believable.
Now for the firearm I was thinking of Ingram model 6 submachine gun with the barrel of the Soviet ppsh-40 and a drum magazine. That or keep it accurate to the books and have the soldier armed with the Springfield rifle.
The USA is said to have the Thompson in the books, but this is a sound concept.
I figured that after Blackbeard the United States would rush develop a new smg inspired by the Thompson. Mainly do to the cost of Tommy and the Army's need for more firepower, leading to a new member of "Thompson family" being used alongside its father by the later half of the war.
I used this as my reference for the unit layout: https://juniorgeneral.org/index.php/figure/view/GermanAfrikaKorps3
"Schwere PanzerAbteilung 501" Which literally translates to "Heavy Panzer Division 501"
This is 1943 Germany, what they call a "division" on paper is naturally understrength. I used it as a reference because a file of a full division would be too large for my computer to handle
I was more trying to convey the layout of a US division (not necessarily Pound's specific unit)
Some Fleet Aircraft Carriers for the Union Navy
USS Remembrance
As for the story of the ship, I will not bother writing it out as it was already explained.
USS Sandwich Islands class
In the early 1930s prior to the Pacific War, the Union Navy was permitted by treaty to construct 4 new aircraft carriers. Two of the ships were ordered to be built at around 17,000 displacement and were laid down in 1931 at Bethlehem Shipyards and were named the USS Sandwich Islands and USS Ranger respectively, both ships would both be completed and commissioned in late 1934. During the 2nd Great War, both ships would be used to engage the navies of Britain, the Confederacy, and France, with the Sandwich Islands being notably drawn away from Bermuda when the joint Anglo-Confederate forces invaded it. Following which, the USS Sandwich Islands would be deployed The Ranger would be used to ferry aircraft in support of operations against the Confederacy in the Caribbean. After war's end, both ships would be decommissioned and would be scrapped in Delaware in the late 1940s.
USS Bonhomme Richard class = OTL Yorktown Class
As the Sandwich Islands class carriers were being constructed in 1933, proposals for a follow on class were being thrown around, with the intentions of implementing the lessons learned from the Pacific War. The final design that was selected was to weigh in at around 25,000 tons fully loaded. The first two ships, USS Bonhomme Richard and USS Enterprise would both ordered in 1934 at the New York Naval Yard and the first ship, the Bonhomme Richard would be commissioned in 1937, and the Enterprise, in 1938. In addition, another ship, the USS Hornet, would be laid down in 1939 as it was seen that war was on the horizon, and would be commissioned in September of 1941. When war broke out in 1941, both ships would be at port in Boston, Massachusetts, and would be deployed to counter any threat to Central Power shipping in the Atlantic. The USS Bonhomme Richard would be notable as her torpedo bombers would damage the Confederate Battleship CSS Jefferson Davis in a way which severely reduced her speed, which would ultimately doom the Davis. Following the loss of the USS Remembrance, both the Bonhomme Richard and the Hornet would be redeployed to the Pacific to deal with the Japanese in early 1942, there, they would engage the Japanese until 1943 when Japan switched sides (though the Bonhomme Richard would be lost to the Japanese Navy in late 1942.) The Enterprise in September of 1943 would use her aircraft to engage enemy warships in the area of Bermuda, they would destroy the cruisers HMS Surrey and CSS Jacksonville, 3 Confederate and 1 British destroyers, and a Confederate fleet refueling ship named the CSS Taino. Following the Bermuda campaign, both the Hornet and Enterprise would provide air support for Union operations in the Caribbean region and the Atlantic coastal regions of the Confederacy. Following war's end, both ships would be used as training vessels until 1952 when they were decommissioned, with the Enterprise being preserved as a museum ship in Plymouth Massachusetts while the Hornet was sold for scrap in 1958.
USS Oriskany class = Similar to the USS Wasp of OTL with a shortened funnel
In 1937, the United States Navy foresaw that another war was on it's way, in part, the Navy would draw up specifications for a new class of aircraft carriers. The planned displacement was to be between 18,000 to 20,000 tons fully loaded and two ships, the USS Oriskany and USS Wasp would be ordered and laid down in December of 1937 at the newly expanded shipyards of Halifax and at the New York Naval Shipyard. The Oriskany would be the completed in February of 1941 which was followed by the Wasp in June of the same year. With the outbreak of hostilities, the Oriskany would be deployed on anti-submarine operations off the coast of Long Island while the Wasp was made the flagship of the Union 9th Fleet, which took part in Operations in the North Atlantic to counter potential British supply runs to Canadian insurgents. In this role, the Wasp would prove to be successful, sinking two British blockade runners and capturing another, and would play a role in the hunt for the Confederate raider CSS Texas. In early December, the Oriskany was preparing to set sail for the Pacific when it was mined by Confederate Navy Frogmen, which caused damage to her hull which resulted in her being out of action for 6 months. Instead, the USS Wasp would be sent to the Pacific along with the Bonhomme Richard and Hornet. The Wasp would remain in the Pacific until late 1943 when she was ordered back into the Atlantic to assist with the Union Navy. Meanwhile, following her repairs, the USS Oriskany would take part in operations against the Entente Naval Forces, in which her air units would sink the French Battleship Lyon, the cruisers HMS Leander, Argonaut, and Tourville, and 2 Confederate, 1 French, and 2 British destroyers. However on February 18th, 1944, the submarine HMS Trident would torpedo the USS Oriskany and cause significant damage to the ship, as a result, the Oriskany would be scuttled in the Northern Atlantic. After returning to the Atlantic, the USS Wasp would see action against the Argentine Navy, in which her aircraft would destroy a Argentine destroyer and bombard Argentine installations. Her air complement would also attack British forces in Africa as part of assistance to the German forces there. After war's end, the USS Wasp would be put into reserve at Puget Sound in Washington in late 1944, to which she would remain there until she was struck in 1953. The former Wasp would eventually be sold for breaking in 1956.
USS Benjamin Franklin class = OTL Essex class
In 1939, the US Navy would begin plans for a follow-on design for the Benhomme Richard class, the new design would also incorporate design elements from the Oriskany class, the total planned weight was to be 34,000 tons fully loaded. The first two ships of the class, USS Benjamin Franklin and USS Yorktown would both be laid down in March of 1940 in Halifax and would be launched in the summer of 1941 and commissioned in January of 1942. The USS Benjamin Franklin would be deployed to the Pacific to deal with the Japanese while the Yorktown would be deployed in the Atlantic. During the war five more ships of the class, the USS Remembrance, Ticonderoga, Valley Forge, Lubbock, and Princeton would be commissioned between 1942-1944, with four more being completed after war's end, the USS Intrepid, Saratoga, Randolph, and Mitchell. For several decades following the end of the 2nd Great War, the Benjamin Franklin class would serve as the backbone of the US Navy Aircraft Carrier force. In the present day, two of the ships, USS Remembrance and USS Yorktown are both currently preserved a museum ships. The notable actions of the class included the USS Yorktown and USS Ticonderoga both taking part in the retaking of Bermuda and playing a role in the destruction of the CSS Stuart, HMS King George V, and their battlegroup. The USS Remembrance would also have a big role in the war as she provided Naval Air Support for the landings in Haiti and in Cuba and would also be one of the Union Navy ships to sail into Tampa Bay at War's End.
USS Remembrance
As for the story of the ship, I will not bother writing it out as it was already explained.
USS Sandwich Islands class
In the early 1930s prior to the Pacific War, the Union Navy was permitted by treaty to construct 4 new aircraft carriers. Two of the ships were ordered to be built at around 17,000 displacement and were laid down in 1931 at Bethlehem Shipyards and were named the USS Sandwich Islands and USS Ranger respectively, both ships would both be completed and commissioned in late 1934. During the 2nd Great War, both ships would be used to engage the navies of Britain, the Confederacy, and France, with the Sandwich Islands being notably drawn away from Bermuda when the joint Anglo-Confederate forces invaded it. Following which, the USS Sandwich Islands would be deployed The Ranger would be used to ferry aircraft in support of operations against the Confederacy in the Caribbean. After war's end, both ships would be decommissioned and would be scrapped in Delaware in the late 1940s.
USS Bonhomme Richard class = OTL Yorktown Class
As the Sandwich Islands class carriers were being constructed in 1933, proposals for a follow on class were being thrown around, with the intentions of implementing the lessons learned from the Pacific War. The final design that was selected was to weigh in at around 25,000 tons fully loaded. The first two ships, USS Bonhomme Richard and USS Enterprise would both ordered in 1934 at the New York Naval Yard and the first ship, the Bonhomme Richard would be commissioned in 1937, and the Enterprise, in 1938. In addition, another ship, the USS Hornet, would be laid down in 1939 as it was seen that war was on the horizon, and would be commissioned in September of 1941. When war broke out in 1941, both ships would be at port in Boston, Massachusetts, and would be deployed to counter any threat to Central Power shipping in the Atlantic. The USS Bonhomme Richard would be notable as her torpedo bombers would damage the Confederate Battleship CSS Jefferson Davis in a way which severely reduced her speed, which would ultimately doom the Davis. Following the loss of the USS Remembrance, both the Bonhomme Richard and the Hornet would be redeployed to the Pacific to deal with the Japanese in early 1942, there, they would engage the Japanese until 1943 when Japan switched sides (though the Bonhomme Richard would be lost to the Japanese Navy in late 1942.) The Enterprise in September of 1943 would use her aircraft to engage enemy warships in the area of Bermuda, they would destroy the cruisers HMS Surrey and CSS Jacksonville, 3 Confederate and 1 British destroyers, and a Confederate fleet refueling ship named the CSS Taino. Following the Bermuda campaign, both the Hornet and Enterprise would provide air support for Union operations in the Caribbean region and the Atlantic coastal regions of the Confederacy. Following war's end, both ships would be used as training vessels until 1952 when they were decommissioned, with the Enterprise being preserved as a museum ship in Plymouth Massachusetts while the Hornet was sold for scrap in 1958.
USS Oriskany class = Similar to the USS Wasp of OTL with a shortened funnel
In 1937, the United States Navy foresaw that another war was on it's way, in part, the Navy would draw up specifications for a new class of aircraft carriers. The planned displacement was to be between 18,000 to 20,000 tons fully loaded and two ships, the USS Oriskany and USS Wasp would be ordered and laid down in December of 1937 at the newly expanded shipyards of Halifax and at the New York Naval Shipyard. The Oriskany would be the completed in February of 1941 which was followed by the Wasp in June of the same year. With the outbreak of hostilities, the Oriskany would be deployed on anti-submarine operations off the coast of Long Island while the Wasp was made the flagship of the Union 9th Fleet, which took part in Operations in the North Atlantic to counter potential British supply runs to Canadian insurgents. In this role, the Wasp would prove to be successful, sinking two British blockade runners and capturing another, and would play a role in the hunt for the Confederate raider CSS Texas. In early December, the Oriskany was preparing to set sail for the Pacific when it was mined by Confederate Navy Frogmen, which caused damage to her hull which resulted in her being out of action for 6 months. Instead, the USS Wasp would be sent to the Pacific along with the Bonhomme Richard and Hornet. The Wasp would remain in the Pacific until late 1943 when she was ordered back into the Atlantic to assist with the Union Navy. Meanwhile, following her repairs, the USS Oriskany would take part in operations against the Entente Naval Forces, in which her air units would sink the French Battleship Lyon, the cruisers HMS Leander, Argonaut, and Tourville, and 2 Confederate, 1 French, and 2 British destroyers. However on February 18th, 1944, the submarine HMS Trident would torpedo the USS Oriskany and cause significant damage to the ship, as a result, the Oriskany would be scuttled in the Northern Atlantic. After returning to the Atlantic, the USS Wasp would see action against the Argentine Navy, in which her aircraft would destroy a Argentine destroyer and bombard Argentine installations. Her air complement would also attack British forces in Africa as part of assistance to the German forces there. After war's end, the USS Wasp would be put into reserve at Puget Sound in Washington in late 1944, to which she would remain there until she was struck in 1953. The former Wasp would eventually be sold for breaking in 1956.
USS Benjamin Franklin class = OTL Essex class
In 1939, the US Navy would begin plans for a follow-on design for the Benhomme Richard class, the new design would also incorporate design elements from the Oriskany class, the total planned weight was to be 34,000 tons fully loaded. The first two ships of the class, USS Benjamin Franklin and USS Yorktown would both be laid down in March of 1940 in Halifax and would be launched in the summer of 1941 and commissioned in January of 1942. The USS Benjamin Franklin would be deployed to the Pacific to deal with the Japanese while the Yorktown would be deployed in the Atlantic. During the war five more ships of the class, the USS Remembrance, Ticonderoga, Valley Forge, Lubbock, and Princeton would be commissioned between 1942-1944, with four more being completed after war's end, the USS Intrepid, Saratoga, Randolph, and Mitchell. For several decades following the end of the 2nd Great War, the Benjamin Franklin class would serve as the backbone of the US Navy Aircraft Carrier force. In the present day, two of the ships, USS Remembrance and USS Yorktown are both currently preserved a museum ships. The notable actions of the class included the USS Yorktown and USS Ticonderoga both taking part in the retaking of Bermuda and playing a role in the destruction of the CSS Stuart, HMS King George V, and their battlegroup. The USS Remembrance would also have a big role in the war as she provided Naval Air Support for the landings in Haiti and in Cuba and would also be one of the Union Navy ships to sail into Tampa Bay at War's End.
I used this as my reference for the unit layout: https://juniorgeneral.org/index.php/figure/view/GermanAfrikaKorps3
"Schwere PanzerAbteilung 501" Which literally translates to "Heavy Panzer Division 501"
This is 1943 Germany, what they call a "division" on paper is naturally understrength. I used it as a reference because a file of a full division would be too large for my computer to handle
I was more trying to convey the layout of a US division (not necessarily Pound's specific unit)
Uh.... no.
That translates as Heavy Tank Battalion 501 as the closest translation. The heavy tanks were mostly assigned as a Corps-level asset because they were too damn slow and too few in number.
Winchester Model 1917 Battle Carbine.
Too late to see action in the First Great War the M17 was developed from the Winchester model 1907 which was produced for the civilian market for small game hunting and chambered in the .351 Winchester Self-Loading (8.9mm) cartridge, the rifle came with 5 and 10 round magazines.
Many Union officers and some non-coms purchased model 1907's from their own funds and wrote up positive reviews that were passed up to the Brass with recommendations that the Army adopt the rifle with a few modifications made for improved combat usage.
The Army surprisingly followed suit and purchased several model 1907's for testing and evaluation, after testing the Army requested that Winchester make a variant of the rifle for the Union Army with better and more rugged sights, larger capacity magazines (15-20 round mags) and a bayonet lug.
Winchester responded positively to the request and introduced the model 1917 to the Army but the rifle came too late to see service during the Great war.
The rifle was not adopted by the Army but many police departments did purchase the rifle in good numbers and in the 1930's the Army again showed an interest in the gun and adopted the M1917 in 1935. The rifle was to be issued to officers and non coms as well as barrel crews and other soldiers who would not be required to carry the standard issued rifle for regular use.
The model 1917 M2 came with select-fire capability, a barrel shroud (a common complaint about the gun was over heating during long term rapid fire) and was favored by Union paratroopers and captured guns were popular with Confederate troops as well.
The Model 1917M2 would continue to see service in the 1950's during the "Banana Wars" being used by fighters on both sides of the conflict.
Made from an OTL Winchester model 1907 with some parts borrowed from an M1 carbine.
The idea for this gun was inspired by this thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ult-rifle-earliest-plausible-adoption.479482/
Too late to see action in the First Great War the M17 was developed from the Winchester model 1907 which was produced for the civilian market for small game hunting and chambered in the .351 Winchester Self-Loading (8.9mm) cartridge, the rifle came with 5 and 10 round magazines.
Many Union officers and some non-coms purchased model 1907's from their own funds and wrote up positive reviews that were passed up to the Brass with recommendations that the Army adopt the rifle with a few modifications made for improved combat usage.
The Army surprisingly followed suit and purchased several model 1907's for testing and evaluation, after testing the Army requested that Winchester make a variant of the rifle for the Union Army with better and more rugged sights, larger capacity magazines (15-20 round mags) and a bayonet lug.
Winchester responded positively to the request and introduced the model 1917 to the Army but the rifle came too late to see service during the Great war.
The rifle was not adopted by the Army but many police departments did purchase the rifle in good numbers and in the 1930's the Army again showed an interest in the gun and adopted the M1917 in 1935. The rifle was to be issued to officers and non coms as well as barrel crews and other soldiers who would not be required to carry the standard issued rifle for regular use.
The model 1917 M2 came with select-fire capability, a barrel shroud (a common complaint about the gun was over heating during long term rapid fire) and was favored by Union paratroopers and captured guns were popular with Confederate troops as well.
The Model 1917M2 would continue to see service in the 1950's during the "Banana Wars" being used by fighters on both sides of the conflict.
Made from an OTL Winchester model 1907 with some parts borrowed from an M1 carbine.
The idea for this gun was inspired by this thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ult-rifle-earliest-plausible-adoption.479482/