TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
One thing to consider is that in this timeline the Panama Canal doesn't exist. I believe that when it came to constructing battleships and such the US Navy would purposely build some of their ships to fit through the canals and gates there, limiting their size. In this timeline, while the US may have certain naval restrictions, their battleship designs may look different to a slight degree thanks to there being no Panama Canal to fit through.
Not necessarily an impact on design untik the 40s, but still a factor. The Iowa class was limited in size to be Canal compliant, and the planned Montana class was a departure because they were going to ignore the canal as a limiter for the first time. As well, the Japanese used it as a factor in planning for potential American battleships they would have to face when designing the Yamato class and their successors.
One thing that I'm interested in is how did much Germany and the United States cooperate on aircraft designs from before the First Great War till the end of the Second Great War. I know that count Zeppelin served as a foriegn observer during the OTL Civil War and was partially inspired by the Union's use of scouting balloons, along with the Wright brothers being great admirers of Otto Lilienthal. Actually I could see the US military taking a particular interest in aviation technology in the years leading up to the First Great War in hopes of gaining the edge of the Confederacy and British Empire in this new field.
Also I believe there was a Union officer who came up with several possible airship designs during the OTL Civil War so there's that.
Also I believe there was a Union officer who came up with several possible airship designs during the OTL Civil War so there's that.
Perhaps, but development of such aircraft took time and not everyone in the militaries of many countries were sold on the idea of air power. There probably was cooperation between the United States and Germany, but not so much between militaries of the respective countries --- more so along the lines of private individuals and a few enterprising officers experimenting with air power without real back from their governments.
IIRC the character of Moss the pilot in the first great war flew a copy of the Fokker E-III Eindecker and later on a plane is described that sounded a lot like a Jenny, a two seat plane that was used to train pilots in the US during WWI.
So the impression I got was that the US designed and built its own aircraft but would build German designs as well and maybe it was vice versa too.
Fair point. But would the US and Germany be developing this tech in the years before the war to such a close degree?
I think there would be some cooperation and sale of equipment and licenses to build equipment sold to each other but most of the development and research would be private and both sides would want to keep their stuff secret.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
OTL the Canal became a factor in 1916, when the South Dakota (1916) was authorized, this class was the first limited by the width of the canal. OTL it was delayed form 1917 to 1920 due to WWI then cancelled by the Washington Naval Treaty. So basically any post 1916 US Battleship in 191 would be over 108 in Beam', as once you get to 35,000 tons or so you start getting suboptimal hullforms with that limit and compromise TDS
Incidentally the Japanese completely screwed up their estimates for what Yamato could be facing. They estimated 63,000 tons, 10 18" guns and 23 knots, the USN estimated 72,500 tons, 12 18" guns and 30 knots (in 1934 that is, the old Tillman IV-2 was 80,000 tons, 15 18" and 25 knots but not so well armored)
Bigger change is no Josephus Daniels as SecNav (Southerner), so the US Navy remains "Wet" and is willing to go 16" for Battleships in 1914.
Actually the biggest change is the US Military getting a reasonable budget, so it is going to have more battleships and they are going to be much less limited by cost saving
Changes in cruisers and destroyers would be rather bigger, as there is actually money for both those and battleships
The Iowa class kept the 108' beam with 10,000 more tons than that, and was nothing like "compromised" in its protection.
You.are incorrect, also. Or at least correct too early. The Tillman Designs were a complete set of fantasies, impossible to construct when they were made, not with anything like a reasonable budget. Their purpose was to placate a senator annoyed by the Navy's constant requests for new battleships that only incrementally improved upon their predecessors and demanded a design for the maximum they could want.
The Japanese, on the other hand, were actually remarkably prescient about American battleship designs. Admiral Kikuo Fujimoto, the designer whose ideas laid the ground work for the Yamato class and their planned successor, the A-150 design, had these estimates for possible opponents put together. As was typical for the Japanese military at the time, they wanted to plan around their opponents expexted behavior (the same tendency that got then so deeply into trouble later when,we did not react as expected to the "hard blows"). The estimates ended up being pretty foresighted, one projection being only a few hairs off of Iowa. They also predicted The abandonment of the canal limitation with the cancelled Montana class. The only mistakes made in the estimates where that we would raise our gun size to 18" by about 1941, thus their plans for 20" guns, including swapping turrets on the Yamatos for twins of that size. The downfall of.this plan was primarily because of the sudden advent of naval aircraft as the decisive weapon at sea, something that was not at all obvious even as late as 1941.
You are partially wrong about Daniels. Sam Caraten commands the USS Josephus Daniels for several books, so he must have ended up in the north and involvesnwith the Navy somehow. OTL, he was born May 18, 1862. His father was a shipbuilder who was murdered for his Unionist sympathies. His mother then moved elsewhere in North Carolina. ITTL, his parents must have moved up North after the successful secession of the CSA. Though the US Navy is clearly still wet, as in Breakthroughs, Admiral Fiske gives Caraten and Vic Crosetti brandy to celebrate their promotion, and there is brandy in the rescue boats after a destroyer hits a mine.
As for the budget, that's likely. OTL, we spent our budget on battleships, because come wartime, it was judged easier to build up a fleet of destroyers to complement them than to expand the size of the Navy's battleline. Our destroyrrs and cruisers were up to snuff, just there were too few of them. We'd definately have had many more cruisers than we had OTL
You.are incorrect, also. Or at least correct too early. The Tillman Designs were a complete set of fantasies, impossible to construct when they were made, not with anything like a reasonable budget. Their purpose was to placate a senator annoyed by the Navy's constant requests for new battleships that only incrementally improved upon their predecessors and demanded a design for the maximum they could want.
The Japanese, on the other hand, were actually remarkably prescient about American battleship designs. Admiral Kikuo Fujimoto, the designer whose ideas laid the ground work for the Yamato class and their planned successor, the A-150 design, had these estimates for possible opponents put together. As was typical for the Japanese military at the time, they wanted to plan around their opponents expexted behavior (the same tendency that got then so deeply into trouble later when,we did not react as expected to the "hard blows"). The estimates ended up being pretty foresighted, one projection being only a few hairs off of Iowa. They also predicted The abandonment of the canal limitation with the cancelled Montana class. The only mistakes made in the estimates where that we would raise our gun size to 18" by about 1941, thus their plans for 20" guns, including swapping turrets on the Yamatos for twins of that size. The downfall of.this plan was primarily because of the sudden advent of naval aircraft as the decisive weapon at sea, something that was not at all obvious even as late as 1941.
You are partially wrong about Daniels. Sam Caraten commands the USS Josephus Daniels for several books, so he must have ended up in the north and involvesnwith the Navy somehow. OTL, he was born May 18, 1862. His father was a shipbuilder who was murdered for his Unionist sympathies. His mother then moved elsewhere in North Carolina. ITTL, his parents must have moved up North after the successful secession of the CSA. Though the US Navy is clearly still wet, as in Breakthroughs, Admiral Fiske gives Caraten and Vic Crosetti brandy to celebrate their promotion, and there is brandy in the rescue boats after a destroyer hits a mine.
As for the budget, that's likely. OTL, we spent our budget on battleships, because come wartime, it was judged easier to build up a fleet of destroyers to complement them than to expand the size of the Navy's battleline. Our destroyrrs and cruisers were up to snuff, just there were too few of them. We'd definately have had many more cruisers than we had OTL
RamscoopRaider
Donor
In terms of TDS it sure was, not being up to the 700 pound protection of North Carolina, which was itself a compromise. If TDS wasn't compromised Montana would not have increased it nearly as much as they did, nor would they have bulged the Colorados all the way to 114 feet to improve their TDS
Define reasonable Budget, the Tillmans were projected to cost 30-66% more than a Standard depending on the variant, though probably need infrastructure improvements which is where the big $$$ are. Anyways from what I can tell nothing technically impossible about them, they used "off the shelf" estimations for putting them together. They were still never even close to being built but the point was they were a guess at what the USN thought could be built within canal limits with unlimited budget and were official designs
No they made some pretty big errors in estimating what could fit through the canal. Such as not taking into account the length of the lock chambers, and screwing up the math RE parallel hulls. If you were willing to @#$% TDS you could fit something with Montana's speed, armor and firepower through with ease, or as demonstrated even greater
Huh I forgot about that. Been awhile since I reread the series
You just said it yourself. Unlimited Budget. Unlimited budgets are never reasonable. It was a design study in the maximum possible that could be used with the Panama Canal. Even the smallest of them was twice the size of anything prior, and likely would have cost even more, especially with the construction techniques of the time. More than that, I can't give you, because I have not the slightest idea when it comes to early 20th century budgets and economics.
Sounds reasonable. I do think that the United States and Germany would of had the edge in aircraft technology during the First Great War however.
One idea is that Union used long rang scout & bombing Zeppelin's during the early days of the First Great War. Especially out on the western theatres of the Canada's and Confederate Fronts. With them even being used to move small forces of infantry and cavalry across wild terrain.
That sounds right and I wonder how much longer the age of airships lasted in TL-191.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Which doesn't contradict my point. I was using it as an example for how the Japanese fucked up estimating. They thought you couldn't get anything over 63,000 tons through Panama, I mentioned that US studies were 72,500 tons in 1934 and 80,000 tons in 1919, then later mentioned how the Japanese screwed up their estimating
Incidentally estimates for Tillmans were $39-50 million, compared to $30 million for a repeat Tennesse or $38 million for a 35,000 ton Treaty Battleship. $50 million may be low for a IV-2 but likely not that low. Tonnage and cost do not have a linear relationship. Structural steel is relatively cheap, it's things like armament, armor steel and machinery that really provide the cost. Tillman would reuse the machinery plant from the Lexington so minimal cost there, more cost for guns and armor, but how much more than $50 million estimate for IV-2 can't say
RamscoopRaider
Donor
The Official Tillman design postdates the authorization for Colorado and South Dakota, being December 1916 to their August 1916, and used math developed for South Dakota and Lexington so would not exist without them, hence Tillman was not an option for the 1916 program. The Colorado design had been floating around since 1913, and South Dakota was functionally just an enlarged Standard, though due to delays did incorporate some ideas from the Tillman series in the post design changes before finalization. Nobody had nailed down the characteristics of just what would come after South Dakota before the WNT hit
IV-2 was considered the most practical, there were cheaper and less ambitious designs in the series, but IV-2 was most efficient and closest to what Congress asked for and the Navy wanted
I'd say about ten to twenty years give or take, thirty at the maximum. Though I could see the German's using them extensively in Africa for patrolling and moving cargo over the vast expanse of their newly acquired territory. Nothing quite like a zeppelin dropping a barrage of bombs and bringing scores of troops to keep the locals in line.
August 1916 was when construction on 16 new battleships was authorized. The Colorado class design was created in 1917, using a modified Tennessee design, and the South Dakota class design was ongoing into 1918. They most certainly did not predate the Tillman designs, which were not what the Navy wanted, or thought practical, but what they could possibly use. The result of a senator having a a snit over requests for incrementally improved designs.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Uh yeah they did, otherwise how did math for Lexington and South Dakota get used for it? The detail work was still being done, but the basic designs were already established when the 1916 program was authorized, Congress has to know roughly what it's paying for to allocate the money for it. The first 3 South Dakotas were supposed to be laid down in late 1917 before (edit) us entry into WWI happened, and their original final design was finished January 1917, it's just with WWI they decided to edit the design, hence it lasting to 1918. Colorado is functionally a slightly modified version of a design from October 1913, with the changes from New Mexico and Tennessee included
There's a difference between the basic design and the full design, one is a few sheets of paper, the other is a file cabinet or a boxcar
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