… not gonna lie, would really like to see the Flying Pancake be made and put into service in this timeline.
TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Dunno if this has been discussed before, but did the US put any effort into submarines as riverine raiders in TL-191? The Mississippi River between Cairo, IL and St. Louis is at least 9 m deep--so a bit tight for full-size Great War-era U-boats. But further downriver, it gets fairly deep--averaging at least 15 m deep below where the Ohio River joins. It might be an effective way to deploy raiders or run guns to black rebels. Is there any canonical mention of it? I know that River Monitors were still a thing in GWII.
Similarly, were there any at the Great Lakes, or did the naval part of the Canadian Theater end too soon for them to matter?
Similarly, were there any at the Great Lakes, or did the naval part of the Canadian Theater end too soon for them to matter?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
We know the Canadians had at least some subs there as they sank at least one Great Lakes Battleship
Subs on thei Mississippi no.
Subs on the lake yes some where there was also talk of simi submersible torpedo boats on the shallow part of the lakes.
Does anyone know if Cadillac is mentioned in the books I know Ford, GM, Dodge, Pontiac, Chevrolet and Oldsmobile are mentioned But I don't remember if Cadillac is or not.
Another idea that had come up - whats the main light and medium AA of the US Armed Forces? OTL Oerlikon and Bofors, or US-built 2cm Flak 30/38 and 3,7cm Flak 37?
Good point to consider, I'd imagine that the Americans would still use the Bofors, but for their 20mm, yeah, very interesting indeed.
IOTL the U.S. Navy had tested the Oerlikon in 1937, but mainly because of NIH (Not Invented Here), they went with the 1.1" and .50 cal for AAA. As we know, the former was unreliable and the latter lacked hitting power, and thus the USN adopted it-literally on 8 Dec 1941, with the weapons being made, by of all firms, Pontiac. So... TTL the Navy proceeds with the 1.1 and .50, but someone at the Bureau of Ordnance convinces the powers that be to obtain a production license. Early wartime experience shows the .50 lacks hitting power in the antiaircraft role, and thus the 20-mm Oerlikon is adopted by the Navy. OTL it actually was adopted by the Germans-their main difference was that a box magazine was used on their guns, while the Allies used a drum.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Oerlikon shouldn't exist in TL 191 without a Versailles Treaty for Germany to avoid. Most likely the US is using an ATL design that never existed OTL
RamscoopRaider
Donor
They were a Swiss Firm, that got into the weapon building business as a sock puppet for German firms, and currently are no longer a Swiss Firm being a subsidiary of Rheinmetal. No Versailles and they are just making locomotive parts
The Remington .45 caliber simi automatic pistol or M1911. When the US Army announced that it was going to replace venerable model 1878 Colt Revolver. Remington partnered with the German company Luger make a .45 caliber version of the German army's pistol. After an extended trial the Remington Luger won the competition and would become the M1911
Ah, those conversions made from the Stuart Light TankA ideal "US Marder" from OTL Yugoslavian partisans
It never ceases to fascinate me how often History leaves little souvenirs of the Path Not Taken, even in our own timeline - if I remember correctly this pattern was referred to as the 'American Eagle' when it was manufactured for civilian use.
The Remington .45 caliber simi automatic pistol or M1911. When the US Army announced that it was going to replace venerable model 1878 Colt Revolver. Remington partnered with the German company Luger make a .45 caliber version of the German army's pistol. After an extended trial the Remington Luger won the competition and would become the M1911
Here's a question: would the US police services have made this version of the Luger their sidearm of choice, reflecting the earlier militarisation of just about everything in Timeline 191? (What role would military surplus play in the equipment of various police departments?).
I see the police still using the .38 stub nose. When Chester Martin is striking both in Ohio and later California he states that the police had .38s
Hmmm … Doctor Turtledove may have missed a trick there, but in all fairness he has to WRITE these bricks and we only have to analyse them!
…
Also, I now have a mental image of Confederate (metropolitan) police forces wearing kepis once they stop wearing pith helmets - mostly so we have a
visual shorthand for ‘Not US’ coppers.
…
Also, I now have a mental image of Confederate (metropolitan) police forces wearing kepis once they stop wearing pith helmets - mostly so we have a
visual shorthand for ‘Not US’ coppers.
(I’m asking this question here because the US of A came first, even in Timeline-191, but am also posting a link in the CSA counterpart to this thread for the sake of completeness).
For some time now I’ve been contemplating a commission - or a series of commissions - depicting characters from Timeline 191 that also work as illustrations of the uniforms and insignia employed by the various combatants.
While thinking over such a series of purchases I keep coming back to the question of what we actually know about uniforms worn and equipment deployed by the various combatants (and the various armed services) over the span of this series, what we can reasonably infer about same and what we need to know in order to produce the most convincing illustrations of those combatants possible.
At this point all I’m certain of is that:-
- US and CSA start off wearing uniforms and insignia as per our own American Civil War.
- The CSA switches to ‘butternut’ uniforms in the late 1870s/early 1880s.
- The USA switched from blue to green-grey at some point between 1881 and 1914 (though this may apply only to field uniforms).
- Both sides start wearing helmets during the Great War.
- The US navy continues to wear blue, the CS navy continues to wear grey even after the armies shift to more drab wear.
- Freedom Party Guards wear grey and are even bigger jerks than the average Featherston footsoldier.
- Both nations continue to wear insignia and award medals (though few of them are described).
Things I’m certain we need to know:-
- What CSA’s insignia for the technical specialists required by any 20th Century war looked like
- How uniform patterns and insignia changed over the 60 odd years of ongoing history covered by the novels
- What differences would help us distinguish between US and Southern persons beside their uniforms: do these two nations encourage very different hairstyles in their citizens, for instance?
- Is there still a Regular Army/State Regiment divide in the US and Confederate armies?
- How much influence would each nation borrow from it’s allies?
I think these are the most important points that have occurred to me while thinking over this issue: please let me know what you think and please suggest questions that have not yet occurred to me, but which must be answered.
Thank You for your consideration!
For some time now I’ve been contemplating a commission - or a series of commissions - depicting characters from Timeline 191 that also work as illustrations of the uniforms and insignia employed by the various combatants.
While thinking over such a series of purchases I keep coming back to the question of what we actually know about uniforms worn and equipment deployed by the various combatants (and the various armed services) over the span of this series, what we can reasonably infer about same and what we need to know in order to produce the most convincing illustrations of those combatants possible.
At this point all I’m certain of is that:-
- US and CSA start off wearing uniforms and insignia as per our own American Civil War.
- The CSA switches to ‘butternut’ uniforms in the late 1870s/early 1880s.
- The USA switched from blue to green-grey at some point between 1881 and 1914 (though this may apply only to field uniforms).
- Both sides start wearing helmets during the Great War.
- The US navy continues to wear blue, the CS navy continues to wear grey even after the armies shift to more drab wear.
- Freedom Party Guards wear grey and are even bigger jerks than the average Featherston footsoldier.
- Both nations continue to wear insignia and award medals (though few of them are described).
Things I’m certain we need to know:-
- What CSA’s insignia for the technical specialists required by any 20th Century war looked like
- How uniform patterns and insignia changed over the 60 odd years of ongoing history covered by the novels
- What differences would help us distinguish between US and Southern persons beside their uniforms: do these two nations encourage very different hairstyles in their citizens, for instance?
- Is there still a Regular Army/State Regiment divide in the US and Confederate armies?
- How much influence would each nation borrow from it’s allies?
I think these are the most important points that have occurred to me while thinking over this issue: please let me know what you think and please suggest questions that have not yet occurred to me, but which must be answered.
Thank You for your consideration!
Even more US Navy Submarines
Salmon class Fleet Submarines (1937-1938)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,449 normal surfaced/2,210 underwater
Propulsion: 4x Hoover diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/96 underwater
Speed: 21 knots surfaced/9 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
Sargo class Fleet Submarine (1939)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,450 normal surfaced/2,198 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/96 underwater
Speed: 20 knots surfaced/8.75 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
Tambor class Fleet Submarine (1940-1941)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,475 normal surfaced/2,370 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/60 underwater
Speed: 20 knots surfaced/8.75 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters (designed), 90 Meters (Possible)
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
Mackerel class Coastal Submarine (1941-1942)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 940 normal surfaced/1,190 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 6,500 nautical miles surfaced/60 underwater
Speed: 16.2 knots surfaced/11 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters (designed), 90 Meters (Possible)
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
Salmon class Fleet Submarines (1937-1938)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,449 normal surfaced/2,210 underwater
Propulsion: 4x Hoover diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/96 underwater
Speed: 21 knots surfaced/9 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
- 1 x 76mm/50-caliber Mark 17 deck gun
- 2 x 12.7mm M1921 AA machine-guns (2x1)
- 6 x 533mm Underwater Torpedo Tubes (4 bow, 4 stern, 20 spare torpedoes)
- 32 Naval Mines (in-place of torpedoes)
Ship | Builder | Laid Down | Launched | Commissioned | Decommissioned | Fate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| USS Salmon (SS-182) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | April 1936 | June 12, 1937 | March 1938 | September 1944 | Sold for scrap, 1948. |
| USS Seal (SS-183) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | May 1936 | August 25, 1937 | April 1938 | November 1944 | Naval Reserve TS, November 1944. Sold for scrap, May 1956. |
| USS Skipjack (SS-184) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | July 1936 | October 23, 1937 | June 1938 | August 1945 | Sunk for Superbomb Tests, July 1945. |
| USS Snapper (SS-185) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | July 1936 | August 24, 1937 | December 1937 | September 1944 | Sold for scrap, 1948. |
| USS Stingray (SS-186) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | October 1936 | October 6, 1937 | March 1938 | August 1944 | Sold for scrap, 1948. |
| USS Sturgeon (SS-187) | Mare Island Naval Yard, Vajello, California | October 1936 | March 15, 1937 | June 1938 | September 1944 | Sold for scrap, 1948. |
Sargo class Fleet Submarine (1939)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,450 normal surfaced/2,198 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/96 underwater
Speed: 20 knots surfaced/8.75 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
- 1 x 76mm/50-caliber Mark 17 deck gun
- 2 x 12.7mm M1921 AA machine-guns (2x1)
- 6 x 533mm Underwater Torpedo Tubes (4 bow, 4 stern, 20 spare torpedoes)
- 32 Naval Mines (in-place of torpedoes)
Sargo Group |
Ship | Builder | Laid Down | Launched | Commissioned | Decommissioned | Fate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| USS Sargo (SS-188) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | May 1937 | June 6, 1938 | February 1939 | September 1944 | Scrapped 1948. |
| USS Saury (SS-189) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | June 1937 | August 20, 1938 | April 1939 | Sunk by British aircraft in the Celtic Sea, December 6, 1941. | |
| USS Spearfish (SS-190) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | September 1937 | October 29, 1938 | July 1939 | September 1944 | Scrapped 1948. |
| USS Sculpin (SS-191) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | September 1937 | July 27, 1938 | January 1939 | Scuttled following a duel with the destroyer Asashio, November 18, 1942. | |
| USS Squalus - May 1940, USS Sailfish (SS-192) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | October 1937 | September 14, 1938 | March 1939 | August 1944 | Sunk during sea trials, May 1939. Raised and recommissioned May, 1940. Scrapped 1948. |
Seadragon Group |
| USS Swordfish (SS-193) | Mare Island Naval Yard, Vajello, California | October 1937 | April 1, 1939 | July 1939 | Lost probably on January 12, 1944 to Naval Mines off Britain. | |
| USS Seadragon (SS-194) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | April 1938 | April 21, 1939 | October 1939 | August 1944 | Scrapped 1948. |
| USS Sealion (SS-195) | Electric Boat Company, Groton Connecticut. | June 1938 | May 25, 1939 | November 1939 | Bombed by Confederate aircraft at Nassau, June 22, 1941. Scuttled June 24, 1941. | |
| USS Searaven (SS-196) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | August 1938 | June 21, 1939 | October 1939 | September 1945 | Target for Superbomb Tests, 1945. Sunk for target practice, 1948. |
| USS Seawolf (SS-197) | Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Kittery Maine. | September 1938 | August 15, 1939 | December 1939 | Sunk by HMS Laforey in the Central Atlantic, October 3, 1942. |
Tambor class Fleet Submarine (1940-1941)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 1,475 normal surfaced/2,370 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 11,000 nautical miles surfaced/60 underwater
Speed: 20 knots surfaced/8.75 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters (designed), 90 Meters (Possible)
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
- 1 x 76mm/50-caliber Mark 21 deck gun
- 2 x 12.7mm M1921 AA machine-guns (2x1)
- 6 x 533mm Underwater Torpedo Tubes (4 bow, 4 stern, 20 spare torpedoes)
- 32 Naval Mines (in-place of torpedoes)
- Ordered: 12
- Subclasses: Gar class, 6 ships
- Lost: 7 (all to enemy action)
- In service: 1940-1958
- Post-war fates: 4 Scrapped, 2 used as training vessels (1944-1958), and 1 sunk for target practice (USS Grenadier (SS-210), September 1948).
Mackerel class Coastal Submarine (1941-1942)
Specifications (As originally built)
Weight: 940 normal surfaced/1,190 underwater
Propulsion: 4x General Electric diesel generators and 4x electric motors
Range: 6,500 nautical miles surfaced/60 underwater
Speed: 16.2 knots surfaced/11 underwater
Operational Diving Depth: 75 Meters (designed), 90 Meters (Possible)
Sensor: QC and JK Sonar
Armament:
- 1 x 76mm/50-caliber Mark 21 deck gun
- 2 x 12.7mm M1921 AA machine-guns (2x1)
- 6 x 533mm Underwater Torpedo Tubes (4 bow, 2 stern, 12 spare torpedoes)
- Ordered: 16
- Subclasses: Marlin class, 4 ships
- Lost: 6 (all to enemy action)
- In service: 1941-1944
- Post-war fates: 10 Scrapped.