TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Very likely, yeah. In the books its implied that the Great Lakes were heavily mined to prevent the "Great Lakes" battleships of the British and Canadians from sailing the waters around Michigan and other neighboring states. Submarines were used extensively in this area too. Torpedo boats may then have been used for scouting or patrol duties in areas where a larger ship may find it difficult to move in. The US Navy may have used small flotillas of torpedo boats as a result.
As a side note - these "Great Lakes" battleships are described more like "coastal defense" ships. They were smaller and packed a lighter armament than their deepwater cousins, meant to patrol the shallow waters of the Great Lakes. They were used from 1881-1917, after which each side determined that their use was irrelevant due to the mining in the lakes and the advent of submarines and airplanes.
^^^ --- This an Imperial Russian example of a coastal defense ship, from around the same period, called the "Admiral Ushakov". It looks like a battleship but as you can see its armament is pretty minimal. I believe this is a good stand-in example for what the Americans and British may have been using between 1881-1917.
Well, I don't see why not! If you want to make the thread, then go for it! I've already got a thread open for Italians, but that's for general discussion about Italy which just happens to include gear and weapons and such.
Remember that the Thompson SMG is in U.S. service: it's mentioned in the books on a couple of occasions.
Yup, I remember. The Thompson M1A1 is in service with the US Army in TL-191. I like to believe that a few variations of the gun are also in service too. Still fires the same round and still has the overall recognizable look we all know - it just has a few modifications.
^^^ --- M1928A1 w/ foldable stock
^^^ --- M1919 "Annihilator"
But yes, in general, the Thompson M1A1 is still in US service at it was in our timeline. I just like the look of these variations here as possibly existing in larger numbers in TL-191.
Yes I believe there should.
But then you already knew that didn't you?
Well I got it set up.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...equipment-of-the-secondary-combatants.460546/
FanOfHistory
Banned
Keeping with Tl-191 German influence on America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin-class_coastal_defense_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin-class_coastal_defense_ship
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Unlikely, the US had rather more naval experience than Germany. Functionally the German Navy dates to 1848, the USN functionally dates to 1794, US Naval Academy 1845, German 1872. US has more experience than Germany, more likely we see Germany look at US ship designs
Also it's pretty clear that the Army dropped the ball in War of Seccession and Second Mexico, it underperformed. The Navy didn't, it couldn't beat the RN and MN in Second Mexico, but that's just it being too small, not the Army getting beat by smaller CS forces in Second Mexico and the War of Seccession. The Army is the one who needs to reform, the Navy just needs adequate funding
I imagined them building a large six engine bomber, there's a drawing of it on page 7 of this thread.
FanOfHistory
Banned
What, no. I was talking about the US using this as template for their Great Lakes "battleships"
RamscoopRaider
Donor
And I said why the USN using a German design as a template is unlikely. They are going to be confident enough to not want or need German advice and frankly have more experience at naval matters than the Germans. Realistically the early OTL US BB were Coastal defense ships given the low freeboard and short range making them unsuitable for blue water use, more likely to see a smaller version of Texas or Indiana as an early model of Great Lakes Battleship than copying a foreign design
FanOfHistory
Banned
Yeah, but those and most pre-dreadnought US battleships were commissioned in the 1880's, putting them perfectly in line with the German influence on America.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Uh no, the commissioned in the 1890's, but were authorized in the 1880's. We don't know when the Great Lakes Battleships started entering service, might ave started with gunboats, moved up to monitors and transitioned later. Anyways my point is that it is not logical for the Navy to be German influenced in that way, it's more likely for the US to influence Germany,
FanOfHistory
Banned
Yes, you're right about of the first one, I was wrong. But even if we have the USS Indiana ordered in May 1890 and then launched in 1893, that's still 8-9 years of German influence on America before the order. Yes, in The Second Mexican War, the US army really dropped the ball, but so did the navy. The British raid on the San Francisco mint is a prime example of this. And the coastal cities on the Great Lakes were also bombarded. I think Abraham Lincoln mentions that in How Few Remain, or in American Front. So that's around 1882-1883 when US ships start appearing on the Great Lakes. The Odin was launched in 1896, but was built from 1893-1896. Its very likely that the Germans would share both their naval and land innovations with America.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Why exactly should Germany influence US ship design? German influence does not magically mean everything has to be slightly Germanish
Coastal Defense is an Army matter, they are in charge of coastal guns and minefields. So they share a good half the blame for San Francisco and the Great Lakes. And the Navy had success until the UK and France joined in, they beat the CSN, started a blockade and had to skedaddle home. The Army could not even take a minor border town for long, and kept getting beaten by similar or smaller CS forces, compared to the Navy having to hide in port from much larger British and French forces
German naval innovations were things like Armor treatment, smokeless powder composition and damage control measures, that can be applied to any ships. In terms of actual ship design they were fairly meh at best
FanOfHistory
Banned
Why should it not? I think we're still talking about US Great Lakes ships and the Odin being a template for that. The Odin started construction in 1893, which is hypothetically when US ships start appearing on the Great Lakes. It's very plausible the US used those plans. Innovation isn't a one-way street either. The US had many things to share with their German allies, like the Maxim or airplanes
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Because there is no reason it should? The Army of course would take cues from Germany, as they need to reform and Germany has a successful Army to copy. The German Navy is nothing to write home about and arguably behind the USN, so why copy them
Exactly, which is why it is more likely for the Kaiserliche Marine to take cues for the USN than vice versa