TL 191: Where Did It Go Wrong?

To me it looks obviously like that's what he was going for, but since it never panned out that way we may never know.

I have seen/read NO evidence that Turtledove originally wanted it like that.

I think the idea came about because no one was expecting a Central Powers victory and that bizarre character named McSweeney became memorable.

Granted, it would have been COOL to have seen the idea of another "Southern Victory" and the United States experiencing its own revolution, which might have eventually lead to an interesting historical dynamic played out between the Socialist(?) U.S.A, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Capitalist(?) Confederacy , among others, during an alternate WWII, but I just didn't see it as inevitable.

Now that I mention McSweeney, I also wasn't convinced that he would have picked a good, convenient scapegoat, had he lived and become the Hitler of the U.S.

Who was he gonna pick on? Catholics? Non-Presbyterians? Jews? All Non-Christians? Mormons?

It would be more believable for the U.S. to become a Soviet-like nation ruled under a Stalin-like leader than a Nazi-like one..

I'll admit, though... Featherston vs. McSweeney would have been a rivalry I would have LOVED to have read about!

Yeah, let Featherston somehow still become President, do his thing, and get eventually crushed by Uncle McSweeney's mighty Sovie--err, I mean, Socialist USA.
 

Pax

Banned
I have seen/read NO evidence that Turtledove originally wanted it like that.

I think the idea came about because no one was expecting a Central Powers victory and that bizarre character named McSweeney became memorable.

Granted, it would have been COOL to have seen the idea of another "Southern Victory" and the United States experiencing its own revolution, which might have eventually lead to an interesting historical dynamic played out between the Socialist(?) U.S.A, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Capitalist(?) Confederacy , among others, during an alternate WWII, but I just didn't see it as inevitable.

Now that I mention McSweeney, I also wasn't convinced that he would have picked a good, convenient scapegoat, had he lived and become the Hitler of the U.S.

Who was he gonna pick on? Catholics? Non-Presbyterians? Jews? All Non-Christians? Mormons?

It would be more believable for the U.S. to become a Soviet-like nation ruled under a Stalin-like leader than a Nazi-like one..

I'll admit, though... Featherston vs. McSweeney would have been a rivalry I would have LOVED to have read about!

Yeah, let Featherston somehow still become President, do his thing, and get eventually crushed by Uncle McSweeney's mighty Sovie--err, I mean, Socialist USA.


My only thing with McSweeney is his name just doesn't sound as threatening as Joseph Stalin - the man of steel, or Adolf Hitler. Maybe if his name was Gordon Strong or Gordon Steelhammer or something (though maybe he changes it later on?).

I thought that maybe that was his intention, but now thinking about it, it would be odd for him to make McSweeney out to be the Hitler of the timeline but not have him be a POV character like Featherston.

A Socialist McSweeney vs Featherston sounds pretty cool. It could be like a Reds! infused into TL-191 - have McSweeney be the Foster of the UASR and Featherston do his thing.
 
The part where it takes the US three damn years to grind through the CSA and Canada despite holding advantages in men naval power industrial capability men and did I mention manpower?
 
I have seen/read NO evidence that Turtledove originally wanted it like that.

I think the idea came about because no one was expecting a Central Powers victory and that bizarre character named McSweeney became memorable.

Granted, it would have been COOL to have seen the idea of another "Southern Victory" and the United States experiencing its own revolution, which might have eventually lead to an interesting historical dynamic played out between the Socialist(?) U.S.A, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Capitalist(?) Confederacy , among others, during an alternate WWII, but I just didn't see it as inevitable.

Now that I mention McSweeney, I also wasn't convinced that he would have picked a good, convenient scapegoat, had he lived and become the Hitler of the U.S.

Who was he gonna pick on? Catholics? Non-Presbyterians? Jews? All Non-Christians? Mormons?

It would be more believable for the U.S. to become a Soviet-like nation ruled under a Stalin-like leader than a Nazi-like one..

I'll admit, though... Featherston vs. McSweeney would have been a rivalry I would have LOVED to have read about!

Yeah, let Featherston somehow still become President, do his thing, and get eventually crushed by Uncle McSweeney's mighty Sovie--err, I mean, Socialist USA.

There are obvious parallels that he sets up in the first book but waffles on midway through the original series.

Hamburger as Luxembourg, Morrel as Rommel, McSweeney as Hitler, the two fronted war, Utah as Poland...

The evidence is in the writing.
 
I admit i loved the timeline. That said, I’d like to have seen, the following.
Some more depth beyond scipio towards the structure of the Marxist african republics.
Liberia as the Israel analog. Resistance to the Japanese in indochina, diem and ho working together?
A little more about George enos future
 
I have seen/read NO evidence that Turtledove originally wanted it like that.

I think the idea came about because no one was expecting a Central Powers victory and that bizarre character named McSweeney became memorable.

I have a faint recollection of Turtledove saying so in an online chat session circa 2000-01 or so, on some old site long since vanished into the vastness of time.
 

Pax

Banned
The part where it takes the US three damn years to grind through the CSA and Canada despite holding advantages in men naval power industrial capability men and did I mention manpower?

Ah, but you see, the South firmly held on to 90% of North American zinc oxide production, crippling the Northern war effort. :closedeyesmile:
 

bguy

Donor
There are obvious parallels that he sets up in the first book but waffles on midway through the original series.

Hamburger as Luxembourg, Morrel as Rommel, McSweeney as Hitler, the two fronted war, Utah as Poland...

The evidence is in the writing.

The idea of McSweeney becoming an American dictator never made any sense. The man is disliked by everyone who meets him, has neither the ability nor the interest in understanding anyone else, has absolutely no political instincts (he had to be spoon fed the idea that he could use his war hero status to get to stay in the Army), has no ambition to lead (he did not even want to be an officer), and is fanatically honest (he even put himself on report). He would make an absolutely dreadful politician.

Carsten, Moss, Martin, or Morrel would all make far more likely dictators than McSweeney, since they were all shown to be good with people and to have decent political instincts and/or leadership ability.
 
Ah, but you see, the South firmly held on to 90% of North American zinc oxide production, crippling the Northern war effort. :closedeyesmile:

Sounds to me like zinc-oxide is produced in Sequoyah then, because the time that the USA takes control of that (end of GW1, the CS never gets it back) is roughly the same time that Carsten stops mentioning it every damn sentence. Of course, Confederate raiders come in from time to time to damage the plants, enough so that the Union cannot totally ignore the issue.

- BNC
 
My BIGGEST complaint was his choice of the size of the Mexican Purchase being the Causus belli for the poorly-named "Second Mexican War". The Second Mexican Empire had 50 Departments from 1865-1867, but Turtledove used Pre-Second Imperial Mexican borders of the States of Sonora and Chihuahua. I would have like to have seen the Departments of Mexican Arizona and Mexican California as part of the purchase, or at least include the correct names of the departments that would have been a part of original sizes of Sonora and Chihuahua.

I agree, though it amuses me to imagine that CSA-Mexican negotiations went something like:-

Mexico - "Dixie, Amiga, I find myself a little heavy on Enemies and a little light in the pocket - help an Empire out?"

CSA - "What do I get?"

Mexico - "My infinite gratitude, eternal friendship, a strategic highway into South America, a much smaller risk of a two-front war and all the cheap labour you could ever ask for?"

CSA - "Good Start, but please keep Trying."

Mexico - "We have princesses?"

CSA - "I was thinking more of ... provinces than princesses."

Mexico - "No hablo ingles!"

CSA - "Now look here Mexico, you OWE us, don't make us OWN you!"

Mexico - "INDEPENDENCIA O MUERTE!"

CSA - "Give us Chihuahua & Sonora willingly and we'll pay you."

Mexico - "Will you pay us Cash? HARD cash, not that paperwork rubbish?"

CSA - "Si"

Mexico - "We ask for seven-point-two millions of your Dixie dollars."

CSA - "No."

Mexico - "Five millions and all the support you could ask for, amigo?"

CSA - "No"

Mexico - "Four millions and we throw in Baja California, cherished and beloved partner?"

CSA - "We don't WANT Baja and you ain't wriggling away from future wars with the Yankees!"

Mexico - "Two millions then, for the Departmento de Chihuahua y Departmento de Sonora both"

CSA - "Two millions for the PROVINCES of Chihuahua and Sonora!"

Mexico - "Do you need them?"

CSA - "Well we do now you're charging us Two Million in Real Money!"
 
The US really should have sent a message to Mexico when the purchase negotiations were going on that boiled down to "We'll be twenty percent more than what the Confederacy is offering just for Sonora."* They could have easily put the south into a bidding war it couldn't win, and humiliated them without a shot fired.

*"Throw in Baja and it's thirty percent."
 
Why didn't Mexico sell Baja to the CSA? Once they sold Sonora and Chihuahua that makes Baja an exclave. Sell it to Richmond and at least Mexico no longer has to share a border with the USA.
Because I think there is a slight chance that Mexico might be thinking "wonder if those pendejo Yankees are going to steal more of my land". Baja gains Mexico little other than land the US might turn into Southern California.
 

Pax

Banned
Why didn't Mexico sell Baja to the CSA? Once they sold Sonora and Chihuahua that makes Baja an exclave. Sell it to Richmond and at least Mexico no longer has to share a border with the USA.
Because I think there is a slight chance that Mexico might be thinking "wonder if those pendejo Yankees are going to steal more of my land". Baja gains Mexico little other than land the US might turn into Southern California.


I thought it was the South didn't want the territory, and I guess it also keeps a US-Mexico border for when your Sicily analogue comes into play ca. 1943.

I mean, I could also see why Mexico would want a border and the South not have to overextend themselves. It seems like the USA and Mexico didn't have much beef going on like the USA and CSA, so perhaps the Confederates felt like it'd be important to keep a friendly neutral in control of Baja than possibly losing it to the US in the event of a war? Especially if it's far away and can't be reinforced easily. For Mexico it still gives them the cross-border business between Tijuana and San Diego, as well as fishing grounds in the Gulf of California and Pacific, so I could see some incentive for them keeping it too.
 

Pax

Banned
On a side note, I've been wondering a lot about a few things.

- It seemed more likely to me that the US would have just created an "independent" Canadian and Quebec republics, maybe annexing some border lands to help keep an eye on things.

- How exactly does the US keep fighting the war by the time of the Battle of Pittsburgh? I know that the USA has a lot of people and all that...but the Confederates don't just occupy Ohio and western Pennsylvania, they occupy the majority of US coke, and steel production, as well as a sizable amount of it's coal and oil production to boot. Pittsburgh alone IIRC produced something like 40-50% of US coke, without that your steel production is cut way down. Without the rich coalfields in Ohio and western PA, the US coal production is probably cut in something close to a third I'd think, especially as there's no western coalfields developed yet IIRC. The only domestic sources of coal for the US at this point are in West Virginia (likely under heavy Confederate air attack, not to mention the fact that there's only a handful of US controlled rail lines out of the region and thus no extensive way to get the coal out of the mines), western Maryland (where production has been decreasing for decades now and in no way capable of making up for the losses in Ohio and Pennsylvania), eastern Pennsylvania (which again isn't enough to offset the loss in the western fields), and the Illinois basin, which can't reach the factories in the Northeast. With such a crippling loss in coal the entire US war effort in the Northeast would be ground to halt as you now can no longer heat homes, make coke, fuel trains, etc.

At the same time, the Northeastern US now has pretty much no oil supply. IIRC the only domestic sources of oil in the US in the 1940s not in Confederate hands ITTL are Ohio, California, and possibly some in New Mexico, I forget when exploration in the Permian Basin was begun. Of those production in Ohio was pretty small, and now in Confederate hands, and Californian oil can't reach the Northeast, at least not in large enough quantities for everything that oil is vital in producing, which is more than just gasoline. Meanwhile the Confederacy's swimming in oil from the Gulf and from Mexico. How can the US continue it's offensives if it's largest industrial area is under Confederate occupation and it's factories in the Northeast are running out of steel, coke, coal, and fuel?

Moving beyond that, how does the US get the copper from Arizona to the factories in the Northeast? Without coal and oil, how do they have enough fuel to create enough brass parts? Their gold, lead, silver, tin and zinc production is also going to be way down.

On the topic of resources, where is the US getting it's rubber from? It's chromium? It's aluminum? It's coffee? It's sugar? It's tobacco? It's cotton? The Entente pretty much has a monopoly on world aluminum production right now, without that how does the US manufacture air planes? The US isn't a domestic producer of tin, nickel, and zinc, at least in any meaningful quantities, how do they get these metals necessary for production of specialty parts? IOTL most US tin and zinc came from South America, but with Mexico and Argentina being at least pro-Entente if not openly in the war, are US-Bolivian or US-Peruvian relations good enough for the US to be getting these critical resources? If they are, how much is able to get past the Entente submarines and navies, which are far larger than any Axis equivalent IOTL? How does the US get uranium to fuel it's a-bomb project (on that note, how does the CSA?) if the uranium is in the Congo and it's a-bomb site is in Washington? Wouldn't that involve the US moving it across waters crawling with British, Japanese Mexican, Argentinian, or Confederate ships and possibly losing a good amount of it to Entente raids? What about rubber, how do they get it into their factories if most of the rubber production that the US would theoretically have access to is going to Germany and Austria-Hungary instead? How would morale at the home front be if there are drastic shortages in coffee, sugar, tobacco, cotton, wine, etc. (okay, not that serious, but I've always wondered about it)?

You can't just write it off and say "well the US transports it across Canada" because, as Turtledove is clear to note, there a little roads and rail lines in Canada, and those that do exist are likely under heavy Confederate air attack. It is all one big clusterf***. Can the limited infrastructure that does exist handle the constant shipment of raw materials from the West to the East and the constant shipment of tanks, guns, and other finished goods from the East to the West? I mean, one little bomb from the Canadian resistance and your railroad is out of action for a few hours at least, which would cause massive backups in all directions. Considering the sheer size of the materials needed to be transported (not even factoring in troops or civilian traffic) the railroads would see massive traffic jams, and that's not something you can easily fix. You can't transport a tank division by truck, it must be by rail. You can't just build new railroads - your coke and steel production has been cut in half, and that would severely limit your tank production. I'd even imagine them having problems finding enough fuel for their steam trains if the Confederates occupy the coalfields!

I know it's a massive rant, but I think Turtledove seriously downplayed the significance of the CS occupation of Ohio and western Pennsylvania.
 

Pax

Banned
I forgot to add, pretty much the only domestic source of aluminum for the US is in Confederate territory ITTL.
 
The scale of GWII is a bit underwhelming to be honest. OTL Nazi Germany spent over a year going after and defeating countries all across Europe before going after the Soviets. Honestly, I feel like the CSA should have done more besides fighting the USA. I feel like a sort of Caribbean or Central American front would have made things a bit more interesting. Otherwise it's just Civil War part IV while a bunch of other stuff is happening overseas.
 
Also, for those who are discussing what would happen after, I highly recommend reading David bar Elias's TL-191: After the End. It's an older timeline, but it's the one that got me into this forum.
 
Also, for those who are discussing what would happen after, I highly recommend reading David bar Elias's TL-191: After the End. It's an older timeline, but it's the one that got me into this forum.

I remember reading it a while ago. Some parts I skimmed, while others I tried to read carefully.
There were some events that I liked and some that I didn't.
 
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