TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by pattontank12, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    China's role in TL-191 would be complicated, based on what little I know about Chinese history.

    The book's lack of references to China's historical events gave me the impression that it is, more or less, the same as it is in OTL.

    However, Germany's continued role in helping China, Japan's probable larger interference in Asia, and whether or not Communism would succeed in China are ideas that would have been great for Dr. Turtledove to talk about.

    Oh, well.
     
  2. Kol Active Member

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    @Admiral A. Kolchak
    Can you help with this thread since you know a lot about China during this period
     
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  3. Admiral A. Kolchak Supreme Leader

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    Even without a Soviet Union I could still see the KMT conquering the North. They had an ally there and did not suffer from desertion and low morale like the Northern factions did. OTL, their conquest was mostly possible due to political manoeuvring, otherwise their initially severe numbers inferiority would have made them unable to make any progress.

    The problem with Germany selling planes to the KMT is twofold:
    - Any level of German material assistance to China during the war with Japan would be perceived extremely negatively by Japan
    - China had no pilots to fly the planes.

    So doing this would require the Germans to formally ally with China against Japan, which isn't that unlikely. They would also need to send a much larger body of advisors than OTL, which would also have the bonus of allowing the KMT to increase the quality of their elite divisions (which was still well below that of the IJA), or produce more.

    Communism in China would not have gotten anywhere at all, if it had even been started, without the USSR.

    It's also hard to see the IJA doing better in China. If they're more aggressive and the Tangku Truce is never signed, they're just going to overextend themselves at some point, with their rate of advance exceeding their ability to get supplies. Without a second front in Shanghai (there was fighting around this time but it had stopped already), the entire NRA is going to face down the Kwantung Army, which they can probably handle, but at a certain point they'll just be too exhausted to continue the advance (while the Chinese can just keep pouring in replacements) and stalemate will set in.

    OTL the Japanese did about as well in China as they possibly could have. The important factor here is probably Russia. If Imperial Russia is less of a threat than the USSR, then the Kwantung Army doesn't need to be anywhere near as strong after the Japanese move beyond Manchuria. That could give the Japanese the ability to occupy more territory and sustain a longer advance than they could. Possibly they could conquer most of Henan, Liangguang, Zhejiang, and possibly Chongqing or the Northwest, but coming anywhere near to actually defeating China is impossible. It's just too large.

    And the Qing were always going to collapse. By the 20th century they faced a revolt almost every few months. Something was going to break somewhere.
     
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  4. Kol Active Member

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    The guominjun or shanxi ?
     
  5. Admiral A. Kolchak Supreme Leader

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    The Guominjun. Shanxi was an opportunist that joined in with them when it seemed like they would win.
     
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  6. Kol Active Member

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    What would a guominjun lead republic be like!?
     
  7. Admiral A. Kolchak Supreme Leader

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    Probably not all that different from Chiang's. It would probably be based in Beijing, though, and the Nanjing faction of the KMT (assuming it hasn't been destroyed TTL) would form another centre of opposition along with the Southern KMT, rather than being the government. So, probably more fragmented.
     
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  8. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    How about this guy for the Quebecois army?
     
  9. S. Marlowski Writer of an upcoming fantasy series

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    Some possible Polish Army uniforms and equipment

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    Polish infantryman with his standard equipment, cloth puttees, ankle boots, KB wz. 98 rifle (a modernized Gewehr 98), and wz. 31 steel helmet.
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    Uhlan with his sabre, tall riding boots and spurs, and a KBK wz. 98 Mauser carbine
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    Mauser Karabinek wz. 1929 rifle, the mainstay small arm of the Polish Army during the 2nd Great War. An indigenous variant of the Mauser family, featuring the front and rear sights from the Karabiner-98a, 24' barrel, both side and bottom sling swivels, a take down washer, and the cavalry variant had a bent bolt while the infantry model had a straight bolt. The rifle would be used as their main service rifle until the mid-1950s when they were replaced by the German designed StG-49 assault rifle. The wz. 29 would however still remain in use with the Polish Military as a ceremonial rifle, which many had their metal parts chromed.
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    RKM wz. 28 Light Machine Gun, a Polish derivative of the Mormon Browning Automatic Rifle in 7.92x57mm. The most unique feature which sets it apart from the Browning other than the 8mm caliber was the destinctive "Mermaid Tail" stock.

    edit:
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    A Polish Colonel, circa 1941.
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    Though the Polish Army would most likely use German and Austrian built vehicles, I bet they would also use their own indigenous built vehicles such as this 7TP Barrel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019 at 3:04 PM
  10. S. Marlowski Writer of an upcoming fantasy series

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    A follow up to my Polish Army post

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    Developed in 1931 as a replacement for the German made M-1916 helmets, the wz. 31 helmet would be main helmet for the Polish Armed Forces throughout the 2nd Great War as well as small numbers being exported to the Ukraine, Finland, and Norway and as well as to Persia. The helmet would be updated in the 1950s with a new chinstrap system and helmet liner, the Polish Army would use the wz. 31 until the early 1990s when they were phased out in favor of the newly developed Kevlar Helmets. (In many European made films of the 2nd Great War, the wz. 31 was worn by actors who were playing as Confederate Soldiers due to this model resembling the Confederate Helmet, even more so in low-budget productions.)
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    Throughout the 2nd Great War, the Polish Air Force would operate both German and Austrian built aircraft as well as domestically built fighters. One example was the PZL P.50 Jastrzab (Hawk) fighter, which would prove to be a capable fighter in the hands of not only Polish, but also Bulgarian and Ukrainian pilots. A total of 97 airframes were produced at the PZL plant in Warsaw.
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    The majority of all of Poland's Artillery would be of either German, Russian, or Austrian manufacture, however, the Poles would manufacture their own artillery guns, such as this 105mm wz. 29 Field Gun, which uses the same ammunition as the German and Austrian 105mm guns.
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    The backbone Anti-Tank Gun for not only Poland (as the wz. 36), but also for Finland, Ukraine, Denmark, and the Netherlands was the Swedish designed and built Bofors 37mm AT gun.
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    Though not as prolific nor produced in large numbers as the Mauser wz 29 rifles, the KBSP wz. 1938M rifle was introduced into Polish Military Service in 1939 and was mainly issued out to it's Elite Infantry such as the Motorized and Lancer Infantry. The rifle's mechanical system was developed from the Browning wz. 28 light machine-gun and was chambered for the standard 7.92mm Mauser ammunition.
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    The Poles would use both Austro-German and domestically designed SMGs such as the PM wz. 39 Mors. The Mors as with all SMGs with the Polish Army was primarily issued to squadleaders, Polish Navy Riverine crews, and with Armored Vehicle crews. In 1944, the Poles would introduce the PM wz. 39/44, which was a simplified variant with the monopod and grip removed along with being made with a simple rear sight. The Polish Military would use both the wz. 39 and 39/44 guns until the mid-1960s when they were phased out by the PM wz. 63 SMGs. This gun is shown here up for sale in Germany as a deactivated firearm by a militaria dealer called Zib-Militaria.
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    In 1935, the Radom Arms Factory would introduce into service the ViS wz. 35 pistol, which would replace the older Luger, Nagant, and Steyr Pistols in service with the Polish Army at the time. The ViS was essentially a locally designed copy of the American Colt M1911 pistol in 9x19mm PB ammunition. The weapon would be mainstay sidearm of the Polish Armed Forces throughout the 2nd Great War and beyond, eventually being replaced by the wz. 98 pistol in the late 1990s.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019 at 8:59 PM
  11. S. Marlowski Writer of an upcoming fantasy series

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    Now for the small arms of the Austro-Hungarian Army
    I plan on not doing any more posts on this thread until someone else posts on this thread.

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    The main rifle for the Austrian Armed Forces during the 2nd Great War was the Steyr-Mannlicher M. 1922 Mauser rifle. The M. 1922 was an Austrian variant of the Mauser rifle, featuring both bottom and side sling swivels, a removable front sight protector, a full length upper hand guard, and a straight bolt handle. The rifle was produced at the Steyr plant in Austria as well at Zbrojovka Brno in Bohemia, later would be produced by Zastava in Croatia. As well as equipping the Austrian Army, it would serve in the armies of Romania, Turkey, the Ukraine, Ethiopia, Persia, China, and numerous Latin American nations.
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    The M95/34 was a refurbished Steyr-Mannlicher M95 rifle that was modernized the use the new 8x56mmR cartridge. In Austrian service, the rifle was primarily used by 2nd Line Troops, Security Troops, the Armed Police, and the Air Force. In the Hungarian Army, it remained the standard frontline service rifle as the 31M alongside with the 32M rifle.
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    In the interwar period, the Hungarian Army would use a different cartridge from the Austrian Army, being the 8x56mmR M30 cartridge, and thus developed the 32M Bolt Action Rifle, which is a development of the M95 Bolt System.
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    In the midst of the 2nd Great War, the Austrian and Hungarian Armies using two different cartridges would end up creating logistical problems for the KuK Armee, which prompted Hungary to develop the 43M rifle. Which was essentially a 32M rifle modified to use 8mm Mauser, and would also have a Mauser style of magazine.
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    In the early 1930s, Steyr would develop a semi-automatic rifle which was called the M. 1934, the M. 1934 was chambered for the standard 7.92x57mm ammunition. These guns would be issued out to the Kaiserjager troops and with the Hussars in the Austrian Army, it was also saw limited use in the Chinese and Ukrainian Armies. The United States Army would test the rifle out in 30-06, however the rifle was rejected. The Confederates would also get a hold of a rifle, and this rifle would have influence on the Tredegar M1938 Rifle.
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    For it's mountain troops and police forces, Steyr would develop the rather lightweight M. 1925 short carbine, which weighed in at 3.1kg or 6.8lb. The rifle was so good of a carbine, it was also sold to many foreign nations as a police carbine.
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    In 1926, the Austrian Army would adopt the new machine-gun from the Brno Arms Plant known as the MG. 1926 Light Machine Gun. The MG. 1926 was chambered for 7.92x57mm, which either normally had a 20 round magazine, but there was limited use of the 30 round magazine. As well as being used by Austria, the machine-gun became the most popular LMG in the world, with the Chinese Military being the largest user of the type outside of Austria. The weapon was also copied in China, hence, why China became a large user of this weapon. The Hungarian Army would use a version of this weapon in 8x56mmR as the 34M. The British would also copy this system and make it as their Enfield L-37 light machine-gun, or commonly known as the Bren gun. (BRno-ENfield)
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    The standard submachine-gun of the Austrian Army was the Steyr-Solothurn MP. 1934 chambered for 9x23mm Steyr (as well as in 7.63x25mm Mauser and 9x19mm PB). The weapon featured a bayonet lug and a feature which enabled the user to reload the magazines with a stripper clip. The guns were rather well praised due to it being made to a high quality. Users of the weapons would be Poland, Bulgaria, Holland, Persia, Brazil, Mexico, Ireland, and Japan.
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    Likewise, Hungary's main submachine-gun would be the Danuvia 36M, a rather excellent weapons, which to the accounts of the men who wielded them, was almost like a carbine than machine-pistol due it using the 9x25mm ammunition, which made the gun very popular and even sought after by Russian and Austrian soldiers as well as Ukrainian and Serbian Partisans.
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    In 1942, the designer, Kiraly, would develop a simplified version known as the 42M, which now had a folding stock, a shortened stock, and a angled magazine. This weapon would inherit the same reputation that the 36M had, and as such, also became sought by the enemies of the Austro-Hungarian Army.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019 at 2:33 PM