TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by pattontank12, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    My thinking of why they’d reject that is the Schlieffen Plan’s failure. Germany tried an offensive strategy against the French during the Great War, and the French managed to stop them. In their mind, what did work is bleeding the French nation dry in attritional battles like Verdun. After all, they won after these massive meat grinder engagements.

    They’d see the French as desiring revenge, but unwilling or unable to spend lives like they did during the Great War. The Germans themselves would be unwilling to fight such a war on their end, but that is where pre-built fortifications come handy. The Germans won the last war, so they want to fight the last war, which on the West means a defensive war.

    That being said, I expect the Germans to want an offensive war against Russia. Or, a war of maneuver to drag the Russians into hostile Poland, the Baltics and Ukraine and bleed them out that way. They’d recognize Russia as the weakest of the Entente powers and want them knocked out first.
     
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  2. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I see where you're coming from and I can't prove your wrong but I think the Germans would be concerned about both France and Great Britain joining up against them and they may believe that armoured vehicles will give them the ability to make the Schiefflen plan work this time around.
    I could be wrong but I really don't think the Germans would plan on holding off France and Britain with just a defensive military doctrine. Perhaps they would plan on holding them defensively at first, especially if they fear Russia would join in with the Allies again but they would still plan on turning on France once Russia was dealt with.

    Anyways I don't want to turn this into an argument, I respect your opinion and we could both be partially right and wrong, hard to say with alt history.
    Would like to hear what others think.
     
  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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  4. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Of course, I’m not arguing, and I see the innovators in the German high command seeing things that way. However, I think that my suggestion opens up more possibilities with alternate German designs instead of just using the OTL Wehrmacht ones. It also doesn’t mean that the Germans would never go on the offensive; I pictured them developing more offensively-oriented forces down the line, possibly with inspiration from the Americans.

    I’d also love to hear what others have to say.

    I love his work. Can’t wait for his Entente material.
     
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  5. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    First time including soldiers too, which is a plus.
     
  6. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Women in the Imperial Russian Army:

    Its kind of a bummer for me to think that in this timeline women in the Russian Army will not be able to serve as widely as they did in OTL. Then again, perhaps that part of history would not be butter-flied away.

    Some reference images of the Women's Battalion of Death are below, as well as some other pictures as to a possible Imperial Russian uniform for the women of the army.

    3d286cbdf3644f3c6a50b0b2775bf90b.jpg

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    marne-department-france-17th-apr-2017-people-dressed-as-soldiers-and-J10M8F.jpg

    ^^^ --- French Adrian helmet in Imperial Russian use, WWI OTL.
     
  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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  9. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Yep. IOTL it was inspired by German and Soviet designs. ITTL I expect it to be inspired by American and Confederate designs.
     
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  10. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh! So this is a post war design?
     
  11. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    You probably get something of women in the Russian Army once the tide turns against the Russian Empire and things becomes desperate.
     
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  12. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    No, a mid-war design. Something intended to give the Entente back the momentum it lost when it hit the Rhine. Consider how the OTL Panther was directly designed as a response to German experiences against the T-34.
     
  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Kinda like what they did in the First World War with the Death Battalion right? But on a larger scale? Yeah, that'd be cool honestly. Just saying it would be shame to see women in the Russian Army be taken out of the fighting entirely.
     
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  14. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Some more ideas:

    The Anglo-French offensive against Germany was named Plan Davout. It was intended to seize the Rhineland and cripple Germany’s industrial capacity. While the Entente succeeded, they did not cripple Germany. They miscalculated Russia’s ability to threaten Germany in the East, and Germany’s total war economy. They also never gained air supremacy like the OTL Allies, nor did they have strategic bombers to bomb German cities. Instead, they focused on tactical bombers and CAS, which helped them during Plan Davout but didn’t help in the strategic war.
     
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  15. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    And some idle thoughts on Entente combat uniforms:

    The British and French have deliberately “evil” looking uniforms for their shock troops. Part of their strategy is terrifying Germany into a quick surrender, so having troops which look inhuman and intimidating is good.

    The French, learning from their experience with soldier mutinies that lost them the Great War, have NKVD-style “blocking battalions” with orders to fire on French troops that retreat without permission. A lot of these guys get fragged in the end stages of the war.
     
  16. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    You know Wolfenstein would actually be a good source for uniform inspiration for the United States during the 60-70's. Minus the more outlandish elements and nazi symbolism off course.
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  17. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes, I agree. With the drastic changes in government in both Britain and France, there would definitely be pro-fascist/revaunchist style para-military groups integrated into the armies of both countries. If not paramilitary, then actual units in the army. @pattontank12 and I have referred to the French Vichy uniforms and British BUF uniforms for such an "evil" look.

    Screen Shot 2019-03-08 at 1.19.07 AM.png Screen Shot 2019-03-08 at 1.19.21 AM.png

    ^^^ --- the uniforms of the Milice Francaise are a good start for that kind of look for France if you need examples from OTL. You'd need to remove the Milice insignia for something more pro-royalist however.

    07VBC112_grande.jpg bc9bcf5b7e7d06156c65192177a7ec5e.jpg

    ^^^ --- There is also the uniforms seen worn by the British Union of Fascists. heavy emphasis on black and gray, with insignia that incorporates red, white, and blue.
     
  18. Marc Pasquin 43 % pure, 57 % recycled sins

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    the Patriote flag was largely abandoned after the Uprising and only came back into popularity in the 70s after it was used by the FLQ, a left wing terrorist group. Its doubtful that it would have been adopted by the republic of Quebec in TL-191 both because it would have lack any real resonance with the population at the time and also because, at its core, it is a flag of rebellion.

    Quebec before 1948 did not have a specific flag that was used by the government and its agency. A banner of arms (the provincial arms stretched to fill the flag) was used on at least one occasion and british blue ensigns defaced with the provincial arms were technically authorised but there is not evidence that they were ever actually used.

    The carillon-sacré-coeurs was, at the time, considered a flag representing *french-canadians*, regardless of location (even franco-americans communities used it) so while it was not specific to quebec, it at least would have been perceived as a logical choice to represent what would be, for all intent and purpose, the creation of a "french-canadian homeland". All that to say that some variation of it would seem the most plausible choice to me. Personally, since the national flag wouldn't have the Sacred Heart in the middle, I'd flip the fleur-de-lys so they point outward.

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  19. Marc Pasquin 43 % pure, 57 % recycled sins

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    regarding the armament of Quebec, OTL, a quebecois called Joseph Huot created an automatic riffle in 1916 though for various reason, it was never adopted by the canadians. ATL this could of course mean that Huot's was adopted by a nascent Quebec government to reduce reliance on imported weapons.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huot_Automatic_Rifle
     
  20. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Hotchkiss H38 French Medium barrel introduced in 1939, an improved and up-gunned version of the Hotchkiss H36 (OTL H35).

    Hotchkiss H37-II.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019