Given the Confederacy is now part of the Union again, the US is also probably quite keen to get any disgruntled Rebs out of the country. You could see large scale emigration to South Africa which they would also be pretty keen on I imagine. Similar to Canada, parts of the South could end up as targets for Yankee settlement, the whole three acres and a mule schtick for veterans and others.
TL 191: The Southern Occupation
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Given the Confederacy is now part of the Union again, the US is also probably quite keen to get any disgruntled Rebs out of the country. You could see large scale emigration to South Africa which they would also be pretty keen on I imagine. Similar to Canada, parts of the South could end up as targets for Yankee settlement, the whole three acres and a mule schtick for veterans and others.
Guaranteed that the states the USA took following the First Great War would be a priority.
I do see a collapsed like the USSR. The USA has no idea what to do with Canada ever after all this time, the South been free for over 80s, and won't put up with Yankee occupation. Canadian and Confederate occupation will cost a ton of money, and manpower. And kids will grow up dealing with friends and families being killed by American reprisals and War Crimes.
personally, I see most of Canada west of Ontario and the Maritimes being American simply due to the lack of Population and a major influx of settlers and Kentucky-Virginia and several other important locations being American in the event of a USSR type collapse
What do you mean by USSR style collapse though? Its a democratic free market system, the economic malaise, gentocratic government etc. arent present for such a pressure cooker blow out. Do you mean like the fall of the Warsaw Pact countries? If so I don't see it, Canada save Ontario is easily swamped with Yankee migrants and there's easy soft propaganda that it was a slave of the evil British Empire not a real nation. The Confederacy has even less solid ground, at least to make the case at the ballot and in public. It split from the Union in the name of slavery, a train of thought that led to genocide, they have the same Founding Fathers etc. and its not a great stretch (well its not a stretch at all but playing devil's advocate) to say the Freedomite regime went against all American ideals, north and south. Unlike Germany its very easy to paint the CSA as more an ideological concept than a true country - it has clear partisan throughline from slavery to mass murder, is not a seperate race but one nation split and it ended in fascist ruin.
The money and manpower - not a positive but as all the Axis powers showed, being occupied at the whim of a foriegn enemy, who have carpet bombed you, nuked you and killed millions of your young men is acceptable if the alternative is a genocidal utterly mental fascist regime. The Confederacy as a concept has been riuned, if anything Canada has a stronger reason to be uprising but numbers really do play a massive part.
Kids will grow up with family tales of Yankee crimes but they'll also grow up with genocide memorials, school trips to Camp Determination and media -unintentional and not- telling them a thousand different ways that the Freedomite regime (and Confederacy by extension) is the most villainous thing to ever stalk the earth.
The problem here is that the Confederate States of America has existed as a sovereign entity for more than 80 years. Their culture is essentially that of being separate from the Yankee culture entirely. So you're not talking about occupying the South as a former rebelling territory. You're talking about occupying a sovereign state. American policy here is dedicated to ensuring the CSA can never rise again. The problem is as I've outlined: Confederate partisans can rally people by railing against a foreign oppressor that so happens to share a language, founders, and history but is ultimately different in the end. Likewise, Canadian partisans are going to be firm in their opposition to the USA as well.
If the United States attempts to dedicate the manpower and resources to occupying these nations then there's going to be a massive problem not just economically, but domestically as well. Children of the occupied territories are going to ultimately start questioning why the United States hates them so much. Partisans in question would either demand the United States make them states outright or leave. The US will not want ex-Confederates or Canadians influencing their nation via Congress, likewise, the United States will not simply let these countries go because it could possibly mean a future enemy down the road, one that Berlin or Tokyo could influence rather easily. The United States simply will not accept that and so the status quo remains firmly entrenched.
The problem is that kids will also begin to wonder why they're being punished for atrocities they have had nothing to do with. In the USA proper, the issue is that you'll likely have counter-culture movements opposed to the continued occupation and since the United States of TL-191 is more heavy handed than our own, it's not a great leap of logic to assume that the Union will adopt measures that make post-9/11 America seem like a Libertarian playground.
And how do you suppose the Americans will reconcile the costs of occupation with the emerging welfare state that the citizens of the United States will inevitably call for, especially if they vote Socialist? Also consider what Joshua Ben Ari wrote as well:
Then consider what I wrote too:
Then consider what I wrote too:
In pure economic sense, then yes. Canada is rich with timber, minerals, and oil; however, the United States is also hellbent on keeping the South as well, if only for propaganda reasons. Of course, where Canada can simply be flooded with settlers to help the transition process, the South is an entirely different beast. I've stated that the Union would have to transform its occupation policy to the point where the differences between the military government and a civilian government would largely be academic and the goods used by occupying troops is actually purchased rather than confiscated, but again, good luck finding a sympathetic ear in Philadelphia.
Because the Vichy French were puppets of the Greater German Reich while East Germany was a puppet state of the Soviet Union. But you're talking puppets as opposed to full integration. The Soviets and the Germans didn't annex their puppets outright.
Conversely, you are equating apples to coconuts. The United States (even TL-191) is not the Soviet Union nor is it Nazi Germany. The USA would operate under a basic sense of ethics, and it is largely through this that they'd have a much harder time of keeping the occupied states in line.
Conversely, you are equating apples to coconuts. The United States (even TL-191) is not the Soviet Union nor is it Nazi Germany. The USA would operate under a basic sense of ethics, and it is largely through this that they'd have a much harder time of keeping the occupied states in line.
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So here are my predictions for the Big Three of the post SGW world, Japan, USA and Germany.
The United States: Badly damaged by war and overburdened by holding down their conquered territories find its economy badly shaken and damaged. Would later attempt deporting their defeated enemies in masses. With Mormons to the Sandwich islands and Confederates & Canadians to South Africa. This would prove ineffective and would be cancelled but not before deporting nearly the entire Utah Mormon population to the sandwich isles, along with several million Confederates and Canadians to South Africa. Worsening the already poor relations. Would experiment with the collectivization of agriculture and industry around the 60's or 70's and universal social wealth fair only to fail horribly. Along with driving off private investment and industry. Eventually by the 90's or 2000's the United States would see the break up of a various number of it's occupied territories, though a decent amount still remain in the Union. By the new teen's the US would be ran by a collection of oligarchs under a democratic veneer. With a former member of the secret police becoming president and running the country with near dictorial control.
Japan: Enters into a golden age of prosperity, following SGW. With their country sparred from any direct fighting, control of the vast resources of Asia and a massive hostage market the country experiences unparalleled prosperity for the next twenty years. But would experience "Atomic terror" terrified of their country coming nuclear attack by the United States and to a lesser extent Germany. The economy experiences a major recession during the 70's or 80's, due to an oil crisis. Would become the worlds top hyper power following the American break up. Would experience slight economic issues has their client states and mainland territories begin demanding greater autonomy and workers rights. Their culture has become a major influence on the modern world. With samurai films being mainstay of any self respecting movie theatre. The "Iced War" is still going on with their rival Germany. One of the major issues currently facing them in the modern day is the influx of Russian and American workers. With oppents claiming that the immigrants are stealing their jobs.
Germany: Was badly damaged in SHE, taking nearly a generation to recover. Balkanized Frange after the war and took bloody revenge against their defeated foes for all the destruction they caused, in the form of harsh reparations, balkaniztion and even forced labor, with France receiving the worst treatment. Their was large scale emigration from their war torn eastern European client states to their colony of MittalAfrika. Preventing decolonization and leading to a steep divide between the European (Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarusians, Germans, Hungarians etc.) settlers and the native Africans. With Africans suffering segregation, jobs restrictions, denial of representation, lack of education etc. Would absorb the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Baltic nations into the Greater European Federation, which many consider a mere extension of the German Empire. Peace was brutally enforced throughout Europe, with various troublesome groups getting deported and dispersed throughout the colonies. Would experience an era of democratic reforms during the late 90's, with the Kaiser and militaries power greatly being reduced. Their biggest allies are South Africa, The Ottoman Empire and West Russia. Currently is competing against Japan in the international market and dealing with French Unification terrorists. Along with working with the US on a joint man mission to Mars. A major issue is centered around modern MittalAfrica with the natives demanding greater representation and the future likelihood of Liberian backed terrorists in the colony.
The United States: Badly damaged by war and overburdened by holding down their conquered territories find its economy badly shaken and damaged. Would later attempt deporting their defeated enemies in masses. With Mormons to the Sandwich islands and Confederates & Canadians to South Africa. This would prove ineffective and would be cancelled but not before deporting nearly the entire Utah Mormon population to the sandwich isles, along with several million Confederates and Canadians to South Africa. Worsening the already poor relations. Would experiment with the collectivization of agriculture and industry around the 60's or 70's and universal social wealth fair only to fail horribly. Along with driving off private investment and industry. Eventually by the 90's or 2000's the United States would see the break up of a various number of it's occupied territories, though a decent amount still remain in the Union. By the new teen's the US would be ran by a collection of oligarchs under a democratic veneer. With a former member of the secret police becoming president and running the country with near dictorial control.
Japan: Enters into a golden age of prosperity, following SGW. With their country sparred from any direct fighting, control of the vast resources of Asia and a massive hostage market the country experiences unparalleled prosperity for the next twenty years. But would experience "Atomic terror" terrified of their country coming nuclear attack by the United States and to a lesser extent Germany. The economy experiences a major recession during the 70's or 80's, due to an oil crisis. Would become the worlds top hyper power following the American break up. Would experience slight economic issues has their client states and mainland territories begin demanding greater autonomy and workers rights. Their culture has become a major influence on the modern world. With samurai films being mainstay of any self respecting movie theatre. The "Iced War" is still going on with their rival Germany. One of the major issues currently facing them in the modern day is the influx of Russian and American workers. With oppents claiming that the immigrants are stealing their jobs.
Germany: Was badly damaged in SHE, taking nearly a generation to recover. Balkanized Frange after the war and took bloody revenge against their defeated foes for all the destruction they caused, in the form of harsh reparations, balkaniztion and even forced labor, with France receiving the worst treatment. Their was large scale emigration from their war torn eastern European client states to their colony of MittalAfrika. Preventing decolonization and leading to a steep divide between the European (Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarusians, Germans, Hungarians etc.) settlers and the native Africans. With Africans suffering segregation, jobs restrictions, denial of representation, lack of education etc. Would absorb the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Baltic nations into the Greater European Federation, which many consider a mere extension of the German Empire. Peace was brutally enforced throughout Europe, with various troublesome groups getting deported and dispersed throughout the colonies. Would experience an era of democratic reforms during the late 90's, with the Kaiser and militaries power greatly being reduced. Their biggest allies are South Africa, The Ottoman Empire and West Russia. Currently is competing against Japan in the international market and dealing with French Unification terrorists. Along with working with the US on a joint man mission to Mars. A major issue is centered around modern MittalAfrica with the natives demanding greater representation and the future likelihood of Liberian backed terrorists in the colony.
Now that I think about it a bit more, I realized that I was thinking the USA would take the OTL route and become heavily in the international fronts. With the economic burdens placed on it from the costs of rebuilding their territories and keeping the occupied territories in line, the USA might not be as willing to engage in international affairs. Largely, it would be dedicated to policing its own sphere of influence in an analog to the Compact of Democratic States, but the CDS (or whatever they call themselves) won't be as eager to engage internationally as the German Weltreich system or the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. Of course, I have no idea what the three superpowers would call their respective alliances, but still.
The USA would largely keep to its own affairs in the Americas while Germany and Japan battle it out for supremacy in Eurasia. If that continues on, then feasibly the USA could set up to be TL-191's equivalent of the People's Republic of China. Albeit more democratic. But more importantly, they would serve as the kingmaker to either Germany or Japan.
The USA would largely keep to its own affairs in the Americas while Germany and Japan battle it out for supremacy in Eurasia. If that continues on, then feasibly the USA could set up to be TL-191's equivalent of the People's Republic of China. Albeit more democratic. But more importantly, they would serve as the kingmaker to either Germany or Japan.
Faeelin
Banned
Do people understand that Europe has socialist parties who don't engage in random collectivizations? When has any character in the books suggested this is in the cards, as opposed to the horrors of social security and national healthcare?
Faeelin
Banned
It's not clear what the status of Canada is, because of magic handwavium. It doesn't get the Constitution, so you could exploit it. Same thing in the occupied Confederacy, or the puppet state of Houston.
Perhaps we rule it as gently as we did the Philippines? Hrm....
The whole Canadian identity is base around NOT being Americans. The US NEVER had a idea on what to do with Canada. I see Western Canada like BC being fill with American settlers, but DC would be force to draw troops and money from it to deal with the South over time.
The Canadians the whole time is 'Give us your constitution, or get out.' After Great War One, the US should have just annex the The Maritimes, Newfoundland and Labrador, free Quebec, and made the rest of Canada into a puppet Republic.
Could we even see the Republicans get back into the White House with the Democrats and Socialists being unable to solve the Canadian and CSA issues?
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Why do i seriously doubt this that the US would actually fall into this considering the socialist party was never anything like a actually communist party with no sweeping reofmrs no mass federalization of the economy and no major Keynesian response to the great depression. So why the fuck would they do this and How the fuck are they gonna get it through the house and senate.