TL-191: Pax Romana - Neutrality for the Kingdom of Italy (1914-1944)


The video above was very interesting to view. While a lot of these Italian ambitions post Great War would likely not see the light of day (given that Mussolini doesn't come to power) some of these Italian ambitions might still be possible in this timeline. Not the idea of creating an empire per se (though I imagine that lands owned by Austria-Hungary would still be coveted even under a more democratic government), but creating alliances and a bloc led by Italy might still be possible.
 
Depending on when the Austrian-Hungarian Empire collapses, I’d say Italy might take a gamble to seize or negotiate Trentino and Trieste regions. I’d say this would happen sooner rather than later. The Austrians feel like they’re on their last legs by the time the Second Great War ends.
 
The Austrians feel like they’re on their last legs by the time the Second Great War ends.
Considering that TL 191 operates on the assumption that Austria hungry or the ottoman empire wouldn't just start reforming after be on the winning side of the first world war which I consider unrealistic or implausible
 
Considering that TL 191 operates on the assumption that Austria hungry or the ottoman empire wouldn't just start reforming after be on the winning side of the first world war which I consider unrealistic or implausible
You mean both empires not being able to reform efficiently enough to remain united and stable?
 
You mean both empires not being able to reform efficiently enough to remain united and stable?
What's the meaning of both were already undergoing reform movements within them that if they survived the first world war those will be more influential considering that's what kr does uses the current scholarship about these issues
 
What's the meaning of both were already undergoing reform movements within them that if they survived the first world war those will be more influential considering that's what kr does uses the current scholarship about these issues

The problem is that after the great massacre they will must compete with more extremist and authoritarian faction with the addition of all the economic and social problem due to the war that will sum up with all the previous one...basically the various reform movements (that frankly while existing were a lot clueless about what to do regarding the effective reform of the Empire aka tons of plans but not any real decision and very divided) will be put aside as not enough bold or too extreme by people and enstablishment.
Honestly between the two, the Ottoman are the Empire that had the best possibility to reform and survive and even that will probably mean cut many arab part and consolidate around the Turkysh land and nationality
 
And while groups advocating to reform these empires did exist, they also would have had to contend with the even stronger desires of of their ethnic minorities to gain independence. Even with a victory in the Great War, Austria-Hungary was already suffering severely from losses in the field and hardships at home that devastated the economy. Faith in the Empire’s ability to wage a war that it was largely unprepared for was already sapped as the war went on. A victory may give the Empire breathing room to reform and get itself organized, but plans for federalization and reform, all to keep the Empire together, would be a long up-hill battle with little chance of guaranteed success.

Kaiserreich is a good and fun “what-if” scenario that explores one way the Empire can survive. Turtledove merely explores another scenario that is also takes into consideration the other pressing problems of the Empire.
 
Turtledove merely explores another scenario that is also takes into consideration the other pressing problems of the Empire.
how much information do we have about Austria hungry in tl 191. also the funny thing is the fact that Austrian never plan to annex Serbia so why did they decide to even do that in this timeline they would just leave it under a puppet state a list in most plausible scenarios
 
how much information do we have about Austria hungry in tl 191. also the funny thing is the fact that Austrian never plan to annex Serbia so why did they decide to even do that in this timeline they would just leave it under a puppet state a list in most plausible scenarios
Serbia wasn’t annexed or absorbed into the Empire in this timeline. It became a satellite puppet state under Austrian influence. Sometimes fan made maps can be off for certain regions.
 
how much information do we have about Austria hungry in tl 191. also the funny thing is the fact that Austrian never plan to annex Serbia so why did they decide to even do that in this timeline they would just leave it under a puppet state a list in most plausible scenarios

A-H never decided anything about Serbia and Montenegro, she had an infinite numbers of plan (IRC some included annexation but at least they were throwed up immediately because nobody wanted that kind of headhance) but even at the end of the war never set for some plan
 
Is it possible that border skirmishes between Ethiopia and Italy may occur in the interwar period? I’ve read that during the 1930s, as part of the lead up to the war between them historically, there were border disputes that Ethiopia attempted to resolve formally by commissioning teams in cooperation with Britain, France, and Italy to mark the borders properly.
 
Is it possible that border skirmishes between Ethiopia and Italy may occur in the interwar period? I’ve read that during the 1930s, as part of the lead up to the war between them historically, there were border disputes that Ethiopia attempted to resolve formally by commissioning teams in cooperation with Britain, France, and Italy to mark the borders properly.

Honestly yes, the border between Ethiopia and Somalia was both pourous and not marked properly and there were some local tension as fascism or not fascim the politics in the early 20's in Eritrea ( Developement of the Tessinei region, recently bought by Italy from Ethiopia and a collaboration with the Tigrai chieftain against the Ethiopian goverment) and Somalia (fully annexation of the territory) will still happen
 
Honestly yes, the border between Ethiopia and Somalia was both pourous and not marked properly and there were some local tension as fascism or not fascim the politics in the early 20's in Eritrea ( Developement of the Tessinei region, recently bought by Italy from Ethiopia and a collaboration with the Tigrai chieftain against the Ethiopian goverment) and Somalia (fully annexation of the territory) will still happen
What would this mean in context to TL191 then, since the government in Italy is not fascist? There wouldn’t be a full scale war over this would there?
 
What would this mean in context to TL191 then, since the government in Italy is not fascist? There wouldn’t be a full scale war over this would there?
Full scale war like OTL? Probably not but a prolonged limited border war with a string of incidents this can easily happen
 
IRC the Somalian -Ethiopian border was formalizated with the Treaty of 1926 but even in 1936 the border was unmarked or very badly marked
Looks that way. Perhaps the Wal Wal Incident still occurs in this timeline as well. If the borders are still badly marked even by that time the incident may still happen. In our timeline it was part of the series of events that led to the 2nd Italo-Abyssinian War, but perhaps a war could be avoid since Mussolini and the fascists aren’t around? Even so though, circumstances internationally would be different here - no League of Nations and a Britain that, by the time of this incident in TL 191, is heavily leaning in favor of Mosley and the Silvershirts. Italy would also potentially be diplomatically isolated too. So what would that mean for both countries?
 
Looks that way. Perhaps the Wal Wal Incident still occurs in this timeline as well. If the borders are still badly marked even by that time the incident may still happen. In our timeline it was part of the series of events that led to the 2nd Italo-Abyssinian War, but perhaps a war could be avoid since Mussolini and the fascists aren’t around? Even so though, circumstances internationally would be different here - no League of Nations and a Britain that, by the time of this incident in TL 191, is heavily leaning in favor of Mosley and the Silvershirts. Italy would also potentially be diplomatically isolated too. So what would that mean for both countries?
Both France and UK can decide to support Italy or at least look the other way as it's a very cheap way to curry favor with a potential ally or at least a supportive neutral but another reason why there will be no second Italian-Abyssinian war is the diplomatic situation between A-H and Italy, i highly doubt that the situation will not be tense and barely civil between them and while honestly low there is always the risk that Wien decide to use that event to launch an invasion to definetely get rid of the last enemy, so unlike OTL there is no way that Italy can concentrate all that men and equipment to invade and occupy Ethiopia.

So, most probable a long string of border incidents, diplomatic and economic warfare and some rising tension between Italy and A-H with the addition of a diplomatic scramble in Europe with a conference to resolve the situation, maybe even hosted by Germany (to defuse the situation between his ally and Italy)
 
Both France and UK can decide to support Italy or at least look the other way as it's a very cheap way to curry favor with a potential ally or at least a supportive neutral but another reason why there will be no second Italian-Abyssinian war is the diplomatic situation between A-H and Italy, i highly doubt that the situation will not be tense and barely civil between them and while honestly low there is always the risk that Wien decide to use that event to launch an invasion to definetely get rid of the last enemy, so unlike OTL there is no way that Italy can concentrate all that men and equipment to invade and occupy Ethiopia.

So, most probable a long string of border incidents, diplomatic and economic warfare and some rising tension between Italy and A-H with the addition of a diplomatic scramble in Europe with a conference to resolve the situation, maybe even hosted by Germany (to defuse the situation between his ally and Italy)

You see the Austrians as stepping in and raising a fuss over Italian colonial interests?
 
You see the Austrians as stepping in and raising a fuss over Italian colonial interests?
Naa Austrian don't care about the italian colonial interest...but a lot of people in Wien will desire teach the italian a serious lesson and eliminate the last nation that had territorial dispute and frankly relations between the two nations have been acceptable only during the Crispi years. So any crisis that mean Italy must devolve a lot of attention and military asset can be considered an occasion for A-h or at least part of his goverment
 
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