Yes. So far I believe the opinion on Italy remaining neutral during TL-191's Great War from 1914-1917 is split, though some have said that it would have been odd and unlikely. The "compensation for more territory" issue has also come up with regards to Italy's neutrality. If Italy is going to remain neutral, someone has to make sure Italy gets something out of that neutrality. That's the idea I'm getting from all this.
TL-191: Pax Romana - Neutrality for the Kingdom of Italy (1914-1944)
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Yes. So far I believe the opinion on Italy remaining neutral during TL-191's Great War from 1914-1917 is split, though some have said that it would have been odd and unlikely. The "compensation for more territory" issue has also come up with regards to Italy's neutrality. If Italy is going to remain neutral, someone has to make sure Italy gets something out of that neutrality. That's the idea I'm getting from all this.
I go with Vittorio Emanuele II, the grandfather of the current king in the TL (at least the one reigning during the second great war) or maybe the name of an important city like Milano (Milan) or Roma (Rome)
IMVHO this is a very probable OOB of Regia Marina at the eve of the second great war, it take in consideration (or at least try) budget and different political system
aircraft carrier: 1 (A)
A - OTL Project by Admiral Bonfiglietti in OTL 1929, 15.000ton, max speed 28/29
Battleships: 8
Montecuccoli Class : 4 (modernizated on the same manner of the Count of Cavour and Caio Dulio)
Count of Cavour Class: 2 (Modernizated as OTL)
Caio Dulio Class. 2 (modernizated as OTL)
Heavy Crusier: 7
Venezia Class: 3 (roughly equivalent to the Trento)
Genoa Class: 4 (roughly equivalent to the Zara)
Light Crusier: 12
Alberto da Giussano Class 10
Colleoni Class:2 (B)
B - originally part of the same class and batch of the Alberto da Giussano, they were transformed in specializated Anti Aircraft Crusier in the late 30's
Destroyers: 50/60 of various class
Torpedo Boat: 60/70 of various class
aircraft carrier: 1 (A)
A - OTL Project by Admiral Bonfiglietti in OTL 1929, 15.000ton, max speed 28/29
Battleships: 8
Montecuccoli Class : 4 (modernizated on the same manner of the Count of Cavour and Caio Dulio)
Count of Cavour Class: 2 (Modernizated as OTL)
Caio Dulio Class. 2 (modernizated as OTL)
Heavy Crusier: 7
Venezia Class: 3 (roughly equivalent to the Trento)
Genoa Class: 4 (roughly equivalent to the Zara)
Light Crusier: 12
Alberto da Giussano Class 10
Colleoni Class:2 (B)
B - originally part of the same class and batch of the Alberto da Giussano, they were transformed in specializated Anti Aircraft Crusier in the late 30's
Destroyers: 50/60 of various class
Torpedo Boat: 60/70 of various class
More Pictures: http://royalwatcherblog.com/2019/12/05/italian-royal-family-at-the-vatican-1929/
Italy and the great wars
(part 1)
(part 1)
The Giolitti Goverment [1]
At the time of the July Crisis Italy was governed by Giovanni Giolitt, by many considered the ‘Great Old Man’ of the italian politics and in the role of Presidente del Consiglio for the fourth time. He was currently supported by a shacky alliance of Socialist and Liberals (Giolitti own party), the general weakness of this goverment, even if was capable of achivieving great results like institution of universal suffrage (limited to the males of at least 21 years) and the first step for the creation of a pension system for the retired workers. The reason for this weakness were multiple, from internal division in the socialist party, between moderate and revolutionaries to the economic and social consequence of the war against the Ottoman Empire to conquer Lybia, passing trough the increasing desire of the catholics to return openly to the political life of Italy.
Initially the communication that the heir of the Austro-Hungarian throne was dead, killed by a serbian nationalist was considered good, after all he had been a notorious anti-italian and there were a great faith that, after so many recent warscare, diplomacy resolved the situation as done before. Unfortunely such belief quickly reveled themself as incorrect as the entire world quickly become engulfed by the fire of war.
The July Crisis
The suprise of the italian goverment for the peremptory ultimatum given to Serbia by Austria-Hungary was total, everybody in Rome and the rest of Europe understood that Belgrade had no choice to refuse and accept war unless they opted to become an Hapsburg satellite without even firing a shoot.
Russia, the long time austral-hungarian rival for the dominion of the Balkans, still fuming for the humiliation of the Bosnian crisis annexation and the failed attempts to capitalize the Ottoman defeats in the recent wars, pledged to help their Serbian Slavic brothers and from there the domino of the linked alliance started, starting one of the most destructive war in the history of man.
The Italian position was complicated, from one side it was in an alliance with A-H (plus Germany and the USA) but not only Italy had a long history of conflicts with her (and still claim part of her territory) she considered an Austrian dominance of the Balkans as contrary to her interest and while she was ready to accept a change of the status quo in the region in favor of Wien this was needed to be compensated per art. 7 of the Quadruple Alliance Treaty and she pointed to the Italian speaking region of the Empire for that, especially if direct military support was demanded.
On the other side, the Austro-Hungary leadership was categorically against give up any part of her territory for whatever reason and while under German pressure accepted the validity of the art.7, but stated that was valid only in case of Italian participation in the war and in any case never involved any austro-hungarian cession of territory to their supposed ally.
For this reason the Italian government and military higher up were excluded from any talk regarding the crisis and the imminent military conflict for the explicit desire of Wien, a move that was a clear breach of the Alliance treaty and will have give to the Italians a reason and a justification for remain neutral and so to not being forced to give up any part of her territory.
At the same time any hope that the war was just a limited affair quickly evaporated with the Russian and French mobilization, not even considering the quick deterioration of the situation in North America with news of numerous border clash between the USA and the CSA.
With that development and the sober report by the Chief of Staff General Cadorna that the army was still not ready for a major conflict due to still not had replenished the equipment loss from the war in Libya and even postponed critical modernization program due to financial matter, neutrality was the only politics possible for Giolitti, at least for the oment
Italy strategic option
1 – Enter the war on the side of the Quadruple Alliance as per treaty, but from the start was clear that in this scenario no adequate compensation will be received by Italy and as the foreign minister Sidney Sonnino simply put: at beast Italy will just be the first vassal of the German Empire and not even that if A-H had something to say about it. Giolitti and the King quickly understood that even if the alliance was victorious, the motivation to give to the italian sufficient compensation simply not existed and this lack of trust in their allies was important in the decision as due to the huge import of raw material necessary for keep the Italy going on they will absolutely need the support of Germany and Austria-Hungary.
2 – Mantain neutrality, but there were the risk that a victorious A-H will have blocked any political and economic access of Italy in the balkan region and stopped any aspiration to finally obtain the irredente lands and in the worst case there were the fear of a possible vengeance from A-H to eliminate an historical adversary.
3 – Negotiate neutrality with the rest of the Quadruple, while the risk and consequence of this option don’t really differ from the above scenario, at least it was thought that obtaining Trentino was a possibility and maybe something more
4 – Join the war at the side of the Entente, but this option had the pre-requisite that the negotiation with Wien failed and no agreement for the italian compensation it’s reached
A country divided...but not too much
The Great war caused untold and unthinkable changes in the world and Italy even if not directly afftected by her was also engulfed by the consequences of this event. The decision if remain neutral or partecipate divided the nation in two camps and even the various political parties were not immune by this division.
The socialist party while officialy supported neutrality but many of his most prominent members like Benito Mussolini agitated for war, expecially with the american and german own socialist parties supporting the effort. The Catholic were also divided, the great majority was for staying out of the conflict but many supported helping A-H, a catholic nation, against the slavic orthodox.
The most vocal faction was the Associazione Nazionalista Italiana that wanted Italy in the war without even considering on which alliance, their general objective was to finally fullfill the objective of Risorgimento and liberate the irredente (Italy had claim against both France and Austria-Hungary) but it was also a very eterogenous group, with member like the poet Gabriele D’Annunzio, recently returned from Paris where he took refuge to escape from the creditor (the British and the French were extremely generous with their financial aid to anyone they though capable of sway the italian pubblic opinion) and the founder of futurism Filippo Tommaso Marinetti see in the war l’unica igiene del mondo – the only hygiene of the world, necessary to keep the fire of civilization so to forge the population and eliminate the weak.
The period between the start of the war and, in the words of D’Annunzio, the ‘black days of March’ was characterizated by an intense work of propaganda by the interventionist but also by numerous act of political violence, at one point even the personal home of Giolitti was ransaked by a mob; so while the interventionist faction was smaller than the neutralist it seemed much more stronger and intense in the support of her objectives.
Nevertheless the real popular support for them was always scarce, the bulk of the people don’t have any desire to go in a war that will have see her bear the bulk of the sacrifices
Negotiation with both sides
Almost immediately Sonnino, explained the Italian position to his nominal allies, making clear the importance of the art.7 of the Quadruple Alliance treaty. The Austrian initial answer was a declaration of intent regarding her unwillingness of occupy permanently Serbia or part of it but also stated that there will be not talking about eventual compensation without a DoW by the Kingdom of Italy towards the Entente. This position it’s a clear demonstration on how optimistic was the general mood in Wien as the war was expected to be a short one, this belief was only strengthened by the German victories on Belgium, North France and with the Russian defeat at Tannemberg.
On the other side, it was the Russian foreign minister, in early September, to made the first contact with the Italian government, offering Trentino, Trieste and Vlore but Sonnino and Giolitti considered such offer insufficient as their objective was the control of the Adriatic and that clearly clashed with the interest of Serbia, at the time a Russian client; so thing remained unchanged.
The failed first invasion of Serbia, the Russian capture of Lemberg and the possible menace at Wien itself and the failed capture of Paris instead made clear that the conflict will have been a long one.
Italy answer to such development was to increase the preparation for war, regardless against whom and to continue his diplomatic offensive with both side.
The russian success against A-H brought a new round of negatiation between Rome and Wien, even thanks to the increased pressure from Berlin towards the Hapsburg leadership and the arrive in February at Rome of Count Von Bulow, a German diplomat with the mission to reach an agreement with Italy regarding her situation.
This sudden moves caused an irate reaction from Austria-Hungary that put a stop to the talking and sent a formal protest to the German Kaiser itself.
At the same time, the discussion with the representative of the Entente were going extremely well as they were ready to give to Italy basically everything she demanded in exchange to her DoW against the Quadruple; this change of policy started at January with the realization that without help Serbia will have fallen and that A-H was the weak link of the Alliance.
Unfortunately Giolitti was a staunch neutralist, seeing the level of destruction just some months of war caused and painfully aware of how much was unprepared the Italian army and how contrary of the war was the majority of the population. Naturally as an old schemer, he used this contact with the Entente as a motivation for both Berlin and Wien to come to an agreement and let news of them come to the ear of the Alliance members intelligence services.
As consequences, the 17 March the Hapsburg foreign minister Count Bertchold, send an official dispatch to Sonnino, saying that he was ready to talk about the Italian compensation and two week after a formal Austrian proposal regarding the cession of Trentino, control of Albania and some other minor border adjustment as compensation and to maintain a benevolent (see favorable) neutrality towards the rest of the Quadruple alliance arrived to the desk of Giolitti.
By the end of the month after one of most heated debate ever happened in the Italian deputy chambers and the consternation of the entente governments, the agreement was approved and signed, Italy will have remained neutral.
Many in the interwar period had ridiculed Giolitti and the King for the trust given to the Austrian, for being such naive in believing that they had respected such treaty or that Germany, even with the personal guarantee of the Kaiser regarding the upholding of the treaty, will have supported us. But has been painfully clear that not for a moment the Italian officials had believed the word of the Austrian government was worth the ink used for the treaty and communication between officials of the Hapsburg foreign minister to their German counterpart that openly proclaimed how there were not intention of keep the word given, were intercepted almost immediately. The reason why Giolitti chose to accept this agreement even when the Entente was ready to give him all Italy demanded, was the preparation of the army and the country for such war and the understanding that even if victorious, the cost will have been too high for nation, putting her very survival at risk, plus the staunch belief that in the end some other type of compensation will have been granted to Italy by the victorious Quadruple, maybe Tunisia, maybe Nice and Savoy.
It’s worth to note that to finance the modernization program of the armed forces and in general obtain more fund for the government program, it was for the first time used in Italy the issue of bond linked to the public debt and so guaranteed by the state and more importantly anyone had the right to bought them, even the women and without the permission of the husband. A major rise of the tax was also proposed but immediately refused, this created some problem in the government because the minister at the finance of the time was ready to gave his resignation over such politics, Giolitti with his usual capacity of compromise put a stop at the crisis by allowing a slight rise of the tax for a limited time.
Italy and the Great Wars
(part 2)
(part 2)
Life during wartime
The war had severe consequences on the international trade, much more difficult for Italy to export merchandise and import raw material necessary for the industry and the food for the population, for this reason almost immediately Giolitti not only created a government of national unity formed by socialist (the moderate socialist led by Turati, people like Gramsci and Mussolini were on the verge of leaving the group to create their own party), liberals and moderate Catholics but started program of rationing and for increase the internal production of food and material.
The food situation was also problematic due to the mobilization of the army to defend the nation from a possible attack from one of the neighboring nations, that because the soldiers recalled were almost exclusively young farmer from the south; sure many rules were employed to lessen the burden from the poor families, the mobilization was partial plus there were a rotation of the personnel involved, at least in theory and there were many days of leave granted so to allow the soldiers to go back to their farm for the harvest, nevertheless it put a heavy burden to the most poor group of Italians.
On the other hand industries like Fiat and Ansaldo seen a great expansion due to the commission from both side (as example it’s thought that at least a quarter of the steel helmet of both France and A-H were built in Italy under license), there were factories were the average worker week was of 70/75 hours making employer and employee rich (but also starting an inflationary cycle that eroded part of this new richness).
While from the other hand a rationing system was created to limit public consumption of meat, dairy product and other valuable product; other government measure brought the 'pane comune' on the table of the Italians, basically by order of the ministry there various bakery were ordered to produce only 1 type of bread instead of the numerous regional variant and done with flour of inferior quality (later this become a staple of the Italian diet but produced with higher quality materials). Not only that but is also is limited the selling of food in restaurant and bakery or butcher’s shop, this to safe precious food but also to have material to sell at greatly increased price to Austrian buyer, journals now had only 4 pages and books were in smaller size than before and even electricity was rationed and a series of controlled blackout created to save resources.
This naturally created a lot of social tension, people had the money but lacked the goods to buy, at least in the quantity and quality desired and in this scenario ta very active and prosperous black market rise to at least alleviate the situation, while part of the new money available was used to buy the national bonds issued by the government to finance both a program to rearm the army and the navy in case Italy was involved directly in the war but also various program of public utility like the draining of swamp or the building of new infrastructure.
As said above, this was a period of social tension and the numbers of protest, riots and fight for the scarcity of food and coal were too numerous to list and in one occasion (Turin July 1917) when a women protest for the lowering of the food ration was repressed with the force with at least a dozen women dead, this started a city wide battle against the authorities, things gone so badly that many thought were the prelude for a revolution.
Luckily for the nation, cooler head prevailed and in an extremely uncharacteristic manner, the government officially admitted to have mismanaged the situation and offer amnesty and reparation for everyone involved and the discharge of the local prefect and the general in command of the city garrison; that development seemed to be the result of intense and at times angry negotiation between the King, TTurati Giolitti and Don Luigi Sturzo (as an unofficial representative of the catholic) to resolve the situation without spreading the revolt or cause further bloodshed.
Not so safe neutrality
Even if neutral doesn’t mean that Italy don’t suffered attack during the war, both the border with France and A-H seen various incident during the years of war, usually limited to patrols trespassing and being forced to return home but in various occasion not before some fire exchange; numerous were also the overflight by foreign aircraft, many time due to navigational error but other time very intentionally as both Paris and Wien want to be sure that Italy was not planning a sneak attack against them, by the end of the war at least 1000 of such incident happened.
By any standard the two most serious event involved ships; the first was the so called ‘Seydlitz affair’, called in such manner as it refer to the pursuit of the German battle cruiser Seydlitz and the light cruiser Weser, together forming the German mediterrean division, in September 1915.
The German ships primary mission was to intercept French transport from North Africa and directed in the mainland, but the first sortie was a partial failure as the squadron, after departing Pola the 4 September and having eluded the entente squad at Corfù and successfully shelled objectives in Algeria, while was going back at her base was intercepted near Malta by the British cruiser Erin and Agincourt and after a brief but intense fight they were forced to retreat after having suffered minor damage.
Their return route in the Adriatic was cut by MN and RN ships, so the division commander Konteradmiral Behncke fearing to be intercepted by another and larger force and low on supply (especially coal) decided to enter Italian waters and seek temporary asylum under neutrality law.
So, the German ships arrived in Messina the night of the 14 September, while the British squadron assembled stayed out of the Italian waters as they were ordered to respect that nation neutrality.
While the Italian authorities not refused at Behncke asylum, were also strict on the rule, no more than 24 hours and with just enough coal to return home (even if the presence of German merchants blocked in the port permitted the acquisition to more coal), at the same time a sizable British force was forming just out the Sicilian port waiting for the two enemy ships to come out to play.
The German commander, with the two only option for a safe base being Pola, with the risk of being bottled for the remaining of the war and Constantinople with his dangerous route decided for the second and at midnight of the 16 he departed from Messina with the cover of the night unfortunately the British light cruiser HMS Weymounth intercepted them by chance less than an hour after they left the Italian waters and engage the division, giving time to the rest of the squadron to reach them and paying this act of bravery with his destruction.
In the following battle, both Seydlitz and Weser were sunked with only a handful of their personnel successfully recovered, while except for the previously mentioned light cruiser, the much more numerous British force suffered only lightly damage; the fires of the battle were clearly visible from Messina and many fishermen ships were caught between the warring vessel, with a couple of them almost being hit by straying shell, that Sicilian sailors while inadvertently in dangerous waters were also instrumental in rescue what few German sailors survived the destruction of their ships, as the dark of the night and the scarcity of moonlight made the rescue operation very difficult.
The other incident happened in October 1916 as a consequence of the Battle of the Otranto Straits, when the A-H navy attempted one of her few sortie of the war, with the objective to engage the Entente fleet in Vlore, beat her and finally open the straits permitting to the Kriegsmarine to leave the Adriatic and enter the meditterean.
The night between the 16 and 17 October a fleet comprising the bulk of the austro-hungarian naval forces under the command of admiral Horthy (1), from the start of the war the entire Hapsburg navy had been imprisoned in her own bases and all the previous attempt to break the blockade ended in failure, with only a handful of ships being successful in leaving the Adriatic sea to engage Anglo-french objective in the wider mediterrean theater; this time it was decided that for the honor of the navy, the entente forces need to be defeated; as secondary objective the ships had order to bombard enemy position in Albania and Corfù.The original plan was to use one of the old per-dreadnought battleships with a screen of destroyers to bombard target in Albania, so to make the enemy ships get out from the fortified port to engage them and once that happen spring the trap, all while a couple of destroyers masked as British ships had launched an attack to the fishing ships used to keep the anti-submarine net in position.
Unfortunately the battleships Budapest was hit just before reaching his target by a torpedo launched by a french submarine (that escaped successfully) and with that happening a general alert was sent, making the austro-hungarian lose the element of surprise, to make thing worse, the main fleet position was spotted by entente planes at the first light of the day.
Admiral Horthy decided to abort the operation and return to the Pola as the strategic situation was drastically changed, but the Budapest due to the hit by the torpedo was much more slower than his escort and was soon in range of the enemy artillery, as a group of destroyers had reach them; the first battle was inconsequential as even with at least a hundred shell used no single hit was achieved for both side.
After laying smoke and being left behind from his escort due to the reduced speed, the Budapest changed route and tried to reach Italian waters due to report of ships from Durazzo leaving the port to cut her escape route.
Leaving aside the game of cat and mouse between the Budapest and the Entente ships, the event relevant to the violation of the Italian neutrality was the battle between the old austro-hungarian battleships and the British cruiser Dartmouth, Bristol and Chester as it happened inside the Italian territorial waters.
Probably due more to human error than a desire to ignore international law, nevertheless the following battle ended with the destruction of the Budapest started a series of heated diplomatic exchange between Rome and London with the addition of numerous menace from both side and dangerous movement of ships and men, till more prudent and cool head prevailed and decided to DE-escalate the crisis before was too late.
(1)
3 dreadnoughts, 7 per-dreadnoughts, 3 light cruiser, 10 destroyers and 3 submarine
ITALY AND THE GREAT WARS
Humiliation at Bonn
8 October 1917 saw the British government, the last member of the Entente, finally asking term to the Quadruple alliance, after being left alone and on the verge of starvation...the great war was finally over.
Both the victors, at least the one that fought in the European theater and the losers participated at the peace conference of Bonn where the latter imposed their terms to the firsts; this raised the first concern in the Italian government as they were not invited, even as observer, to the conference but limited themselves to some unofficial and informal protest as they rationalized that they had not participated to the fight and so don't have any 'official' reason to be there.
Quickly Presidente del Consiglio Salandra (Giolitti, stepped down in April 1916 due to age related fatigue and give the role to his own protege and with the unspoken agreement that he will get back the job after a while) understood that was all wishful thinking, after many request towards the Hapsburg government to implement their treaty were answered with increasingly thin excuse.
The Austria-Hungarian foreign minister Ottokar Czernin, tried to quiet the Italian protest, giving the reason for this delay first the peace conference and later administrative reason but by February 1918 things were already at the breaking point between the two nation, especially after Albania and Montenegro were assigned at the A-H sphere of influence by the final peace treaty, a development that not only was clearly against what written in the agreement between Italy and the Hapsburg empire but clearly a 'red line' of the Italian foreign politics at least from the beginning of the century.
While at the moment the fights was limited to the use of words, things between the two 'theoretically' allies were quickly worsening and in this moment Berlin attempted to cool things; but quickly discovered how herculean was his task.
On one side Austria-Hungary was adamant in not upheld the treaty, officially because Italy had not kept a 'benevolent neutrality' towards them and by not participating in the conflict art.7 was not valid, at least this was the opinion of the Hapsburg government but everyone quickly understood that Wien never had the intention of follow it from the beginning.
On the other side there was Italy, while not really surprised by Wien attitude and behavior it was ready to accept other compensation, but Salandra quickly realized that none were forthcoming as Germany was not ready to force A-H to give up anything or to pressure France to cede even Tunisia.
One must understand that while the French army had her share of mutiny due to the lack of hope they were quickly resolved and a new line of defense created, only that once the gun stopped it was almost impossible for the government in Paris (and London naturally) to restart it...unless German request were too onerous and Berlin perfectly understood that, for this reason it limit all to annex the part of Lorraine that he already occupied, a demilitarization of the border and some (somewhat) affordable reparation.
Even the German population was tired of the war and there was no will to continue the slaughters, unless someone desired plunge the country in revolution, so there was little that Italy can obtain; Germany tried to appease Rome with some grandiose but vague promise of colonial compensation in the near future but once pressured for something of concrete and immediate it was clear that were just empty words. Salandra request to at least make France giving up Tunisia in Italy favor was answered that at the moment was not possible and unofficially Germans officials bluntly stated that if Rome wanted the place, it needed to actually conquer it, the same goes for Malta or some other British colonial possession in Africa.
At most Von Bulow, the German chancellor, was ready to concede some debt forgiveness from France and Great Britain (just something little more than symbolic as Germany needed herself the money from France and surely can't damage too much their economy) and some further protection for the rights of the Italian minority in Tunisia and Austria-Hungary (Salandra remember ironically, how enthusiastic and proudly the chancellor announced that Wien allowed the creation of an Italian university in Triest...and was really surprised by the apathetic reaction of the Italians). Albania was resolved with a 'gentlemen agreement' that forbid A-H to put a permanent military forces there...even if nobody missed the fact that K.u.K. ships were always present in Vlore and Dures doing training and diplomatic mission and the same was valid for the ground forces that were positioned in Vlore.
Italy during the crisis had started a partial mobilization and amassed troops in Veneto and Apulia, where also the bulk of Regia Marina was not positioned and numerous border incident happened between Italian Alpini and Austrian soldiers, but in the end the Italians realized that Germany will have supported A-H and with Russia embroiled in a civil war and the rest of the entente defeated, she was alone against the new masters of the continent, so at the end of March 1918 accepted the meager concession and declared the crisis over.
Von Bulow tried to spin things in a manner that salvaged the alliance but everyone understood that Italy was a wild card now and almost certain hostile player in the game of the great powers for the years to come.
There were severe political consequences in Italy for such development, for the Liberal party that historically dominated the Italian political life from the first day of the declaration of the Kingdom, this was the final nail for the coffin. It was already a decade that they were in great need of support by the socialists and the severe prestige hit given by the treatment received eroded a lot of support at national level that they enjoyed, especially after the franchise was enlarged by socialist (and catholic) supported new electoral laws, and the next general election seen the Liberals gaining only the 15% of the votes, from the 48% of the last.
Also another event must be taken in consideration to understand the fall of the Liberals, the so called 'black week', were Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna erupted in a nationalist led revolt against the government in charge; such revolt started in the bersaglieri barracks of Ancona the day after the signing of the treaty between Italy and the rest of the Quadruple alliance. Quickly the riots expanded in the neighboring regions and the government effort to quell it were made more difficult by the general strike launched by unions supporting the nationalist.
While burning quickly and bright, the fire of the revolt ended also very quickly, a spontaneous event without any real leaderships, except the one (very ineffective) of the self-proclaimed Vate Gabriele D'Annunzio; once the Royals Guards were capable of reach the zone affected by the revolt by commandeering the railways personnel, the would-be revolutionary were speedily dispersed and captured.
In the end, the sentence of the tribunals, both civilian and military, were generally lenient...except for the ringleader as Giolitti, now back on the seat, were keen to not cause more resentment towards the state.
So by history great irony, Giovanni Giolitti is considered the man that saved Italy from the devastation of war and at the same time condemned his own party to a political death.
ITALY AND THE GREAT WARS
Some round of waltzer (part 1)
The immediate period after the war was troublesome for Italy, internal strife and economic downturn due to the loss of many commission related to the war and the need to retool the industry for civilian purpose were not a great mix.
Adding the event in Bonn and the following revolts of nationalist in many places, was just put gasoline on the fire; so when in June 1919 when the next general election was called, the Italian Liberal Party, the cornerstone of the political system of the nation for the last 60 years, barely become a shadow of itself, losing more than 30 point from the last round of election and starting a long period of weak government and a divided parliament as both the Catholics and the Socialist not only hated each others but were divided among themselves and so a clear and strong majority was not possible to form.
The only politics that all side have in common was the 'dislike' for their supposed allies and for this reason when the treaty of alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary was supposed to be renewed in 1924, in a very rare show of national unit, the entire parliament voted for not do it and leave the pact; not that this was was a surprise for everyone, even if the German government made a half halfhearted attempt to avoid this but was too little and too late, the Hapsburg reaction was more expected as just a day after the vote, they started the greatest military exercise of the decade right in front of the Italian border, with the inclusion of the bulk of their fleet...just to send a very clear message. The other great member of the Alliance, the USA, simply wish the Italian good luck and quickly returned to mind his business.
During the first half of the 20's Italy was pretty much isolated in Europe and so concentrated all her effort in his colonial empire. The pacification of Libya was the principal mission of the army during the Great War and the 20's, mission that had different degree of success.
While the coast of Cirenaica and in general the Tripolitania by 1920 were clearly under Italian control, due to a mix of greater firepower, a division of the local Arab leaders and the use of innovative anti-insurgency tactics, the Senussi territory was total another matter.
The Senussi not only excelled in hit and run tactic and guerrilla warfare but had a strong unified leaderships and they controlled a territory that was divided between Italian Libya and British Egypt and so they greatly used this to move their bases between this territory, making then untouchable by one side or the other as both Rome and London wanted to avoid unnecessary incidents while collaboration between the two nations were minimal for the obvious reason.
It was only after a certain stability returned in the Italian political life, with the victory of Sturzo popular party in the general election of 24 and they forming a government with the support of the moderate nationalist of Ciano, that something can be done about the situation.
It was the then youngest Italian presidente del consiglio (41a) with the prodding of Dino Grandi (foreign minister and former Italian ambassador in Great Britain) that a rapprochement between Rome and London was attempted, initially with just the intention of coordinate the effort to suppress the Senussi revolt in Libya and Dervish insurgents in Somalia but this initial effort brought Italy very soon on the Entente side, at least unofficially; after all in case of a new war the United Kingdom and France needed all the help possible and at the moment all the help to quell the local uprising was greatly needed as resources and will to fight were not abundant.
The Senussi resistance officially ended 9 November 1927 with the signing of the treaty of Tripoli by the Italian colonial commissar and the Senussi Emir, Italy in exchange of the cessation of the hostility and a recognizing of the Italian authority give to the Senussi a certain amount of internal autonomy; the Dervish instead decided to end everything in a blaze of glory and so a joint British-Italian expedition eliminated the sect the same year.
The other great success of the Italian colonial politics and as the same time another step on the increasing of the collaboration between her and the United Kingdom was the treaty of friendships and non aggression between Italy and the Abyssinian Empire signed in 1926*, with that agreement finally the question of the Abyssinian-Somalian border was resolved and the Italians had the permission and government collaboration for building a railway that linked Eritrea and Somalia and a road between Adis Abeba and Massaua; for their support the British obtained the Italian collaboration for the water work in south Sudan.
In general Italy during the late 20's and early 30's was considered an unofficial but important member of the Entente, especially after the Tripartite Agreement of 1931 that saw France and the United Kingdom transfers piece of their colonial empire to Italy plus other concession, in exchange of a closer collaboration in term of diplomacy, economy and in secret clause military matters.**
*Basically OTL treaty signed by Mussolini but with the addition of the railway and more trust between the signatories.
** Basically what the French and British give to Italy in colonial matter after 1919 plus the Italo-French agreement of 1934 and with the addition of cultural rights in Malta and favor rate for Suez. Not much but any Italian government can openly say that's much more that as been obtained by being a member of the Quadruple...and yes they loudly proclaim it to anyone that can hear it. In general Italy took the role of OTL URSS regarding German weapon and tactic development, even because the Austro-Hungarian spy network in Italy was eliminated during the Great War and never rebuild it (not that Wien had not tried)
The M33 Steel Helmet, which was the standard issue helmet for the Italian Army from 1933 and worn throughout the Second Great War by the neutral Italian Army as well as pre war examples sold to the belligerent nations of the Ukraine, Finland, Bulgaria, and Thailand. The M33 would be used by the Italian Armed Forces for frontline use until ultimately being replaced by Kevlar Helmets in the 1990s and still used in ceremonial use today. In many European made films about the SGW set on the American Front (especially the low budget production ones), many of the actors playing Confederate soldiers would often be seen wearing these and the Polish wz. 31 helmets in lieu of the actual Sydenham M-1937 Helmet due to their resemblance to the Confederate design.
Last edited:
When Presidents and Popes Meet: Theodore Roosevelt and Benedict XV
Despite the disappointment from both the Central Powers and the Entente Powers on the Kingdom of Italy's choice of neutrality, it was able to be a mediator between the alliances once the First Great War was over. Several major treaties were developed and later ratified in Rome, although smaller treaties occurred elsewhere. Theodore Roosevelt was invited to attend signing of the peace treaty once the United States made their own peace with the Confederates. Before he arrived, James CARDINAL Gibbons of Baltimore was able to convince the U.S. to accept the invitation and meet with the Pope along the way. In the past, Roosevelt had sympathetic views on Catholics and appointed some of them to political offices. The idea of getting Catholic support toward the Democratic Party was an attractive one to Roosevelt.
Italy was reluctant to allow the Pope and the President meet due to its anti-clerical government, but a meeting was eventually planned, although it was not strongly publicized. Roosevelt arrived in Italy on January 4th, 1918 and travelled to Rome to meet Pope Benedict XV in the Apostolic Palace. It was the first time that a U.S. president and a Pope meet in person. The differences between the two men was obvious; Roosevelt was tall, dominating person, while the Pope was a short, weak-looking man. The difference in height was almost three decimeters. With the help of a translator, both men greeted each other and exchanged gifts. The Holy Father had mentioned to Roosevelt his Seven-Point Peace Plan that he had hoped all nations involved in the war would agree to implement. Unfortunately, Roosevelt knew that no one considered His Holiness' ideas. They had good intentions, but ran against the agenda of the victors (and losers). Another comment that was made by Benedict XV was that he hoped that he would someday gain back papal lands lost to the Italian Government during the Risorgimento. Roosevelt would reply that had Italy chosen to fight against the Central Powers, there may have been some initiative to divide it and support the Papacy*. Eventually, Leonine City would be created in 1929 under Pius XI.
After a papal blessing was given by Benedict XV, President Roosevelt continued on toward the Quirinal Palace and meet with the rest of the leaders of Europe.
Inspiration:
https://www.americamagazine.org/pol...and-popes-meet-woodrow-wilson-and-benedict-xv
Sources:
1) https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Blog/Item/Roosevelt and Religion
2) https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Research/Digital-Library/Record?
libID=o38527&from=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theodorerooseveltcenter.org%2FSearch%3Fr%3D1%26searchTerms%3DPope%2520Leo%2520XIII
3) https://theconversation.com/why-it-...-the-president-to-be-seen-with-the-pope-75907
4) https://www.google.com/books/editio...NLEEAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Theodore_Roosevelt#Race_relations
* This is a reference to Kaiserreich, another Central Powers Victory story.
Despite the disappointment from both the Central Powers and the Entente Powers on the Kingdom of Italy's choice of neutrality, it was able to be a mediator between the alliances once the First Great War was over. Several major treaties were developed and later ratified in Rome, although smaller treaties occurred elsewhere. Theodore Roosevelt was invited to attend signing of the peace treaty once the United States made their own peace with the Confederates. Before he arrived, James CARDINAL Gibbons of Baltimore was able to convince the U.S. to accept the invitation and meet with the Pope along the way. In the past, Roosevelt had sympathetic views on Catholics and appointed some of them to political offices. The idea of getting Catholic support toward the Democratic Party was an attractive one to Roosevelt.
Italy was reluctant to allow the Pope and the President meet due to its anti-clerical government, but a meeting was eventually planned, although it was not strongly publicized. Roosevelt arrived in Italy on January 4th, 1918 and travelled to Rome to meet Pope Benedict XV in the Apostolic Palace. It was the first time that a U.S. president and a Pope meet in person. The differences between the two men was obvious; Roosevelt was tall, dominating person, while the Pope was a short, weak-looking man. The difference in height was almost three decimeters. With the help of a translator, both men greeted each other and exchanged gifts. The Holy Father had mentioned to Roosevelt his Seven-Point Peace Plan that he had hoped all nations involved in the war would agree to implement. Unfortunately, Roosevelt knew that no one considered His Holiness' ideas. They had good intentions, but ran against the agenda of the victors (and losers). Another comment that was made by Benedict XV was that he hoped that he would someday gain back papal lands lost to the Italian Government during the Risorgimento. Roosevelt would reply that had Italy chosen to fight against the Central Powers, there may have been some initiative to divide it and support the Papacy*. Eventually, Leonine City would be created in 1929 under Pius XI.
After a papal blessing was given by Benedict XV, President Roosevelt continued on toward the Quirinal Palace and meet with the rest of the leaders of Europe.
Inspiration:
https://www.americamagazine.org/pol...and-popes-meet-woodrow-wilson-and-benedict-xv
Sources:
1) https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Blog/Item/Roosevelt and Religion
2) https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Research/Digital-Library/Record?
libID=o38527&from=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theodorerooseveltcenter.org%2FSearch%3Fr%3D1%26searchTerms%3DPope%2520Leo%2520XIII
3) https://theconversation.com/why-it-...-the-president-to-be-seen-with-the-pope-75907
4) https://www.google.com/books/editio...NLEEAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover
5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Theodore_Roosevelt#Race_relations
* This is a reference to Kaiserreich, another Central Powers Victory story.
Last edited:
Hey guys!
So, I had a very interesting discussion with someone about Italy in TL-191, particularly in regards to the Regia Marina, the navy of Italy. I brought up how in this timeline Italy had stayed neutral during both wars and that Mussolini never came to power. I asked how this would affect Italian naval development in the years to come and I was hoping that it would mean that the navy would be able to develop itself in a way where it is not stymied by the fascist regime.
And he brought up some insightful things in regards to the navy that I had not considered.
Italy not going to war in 1915 means that the Regia Marina loses out on some very valuable operation experience, not only in regards to ships, but also for its fledgling naval air arm. He gave me some numbers for the Italian naval experience during WW1, particularly in regards to air operations in the critical Adriatic Sea to bottle up the Austrian Navy.
"At the end of the war, Regia Marina's air service counted 35 bases, 638 airplanes (552 seaplanes and 86 ground-based bombers and fighters), 227 (with the additional 278 being from the Italian Army Air Force) and a force of 3,098 elements, plus 96 pilots and 961 elements assigned to 46 airships. 51 naval aviators were instructed each year."
"A total of 2,771 bombing raids, 3,467 recon or recognition missions in enemy territory, 9,433 search and attack missions on the sea, 10,385 anti-submarine surveillance flights, and 1,107 air defense or attack missions were completed. Losses totaled 392 aircraft, of which 40 seaplanes were shot down in combat (compared to 130 Austrian seaplanes shot down in combat). A total of 112 men were lost, of which 38 were officers."
"1,630 aircraft were built for the Regia Marina. 893 of these were stricken off for inefficiency or damage, proof of a too fast and probably too diversified development of aerial technology"
That's a lot of numbers and statistics. But for me, what it tells me is that the Regia Marina, despite its losses, losses out on some very valuable operational experience, where its theories and practices can be truly put to the test. Although some of these ideas and concepts were already being floated around in the navy well before the war started, the Great War gave the Regia Marina a chance to put all this into practice and to validate which ideas worked. he argued that without the challenge of fighting in the Adriatic, the development of the Italian MAS boats (the precursors of which during the war were responsible for sink Austrian battleships) will be significantly slowed down and the development of the frogmen (the progenitors of some of the elite naval special forces we have today - like the SEALs) may also be slowed down... or not started at all, at least in Italy. Without the massive build up of naval air power for the war effort, it may also be difficult to advance italian naval aviation too. In a way, the butterfly effect is rathe huge for this branch of the Italian military, to the point that its really up in the air as to what happens to the navy.
Needless to say this was very thought provoking to me, so I thought I would share it with you guys. I think what I took away from this is that, without the Great War, the Regia Marina might get left behind in naval development. Neutrality patrols and cruises would provide experience, but it would be enough and the risk of provoking the Austrians would probably be too great, if we're sticking to canon events.
Any thoughts on this?
So, I had a very interesting discussion with someone about Italy in TL-191, particularly in regards to the Regia Marina, the navy of Italy. I brought up how in this timeline Italy had stayed neutral during both wars and that Mussolini never came to power. I asked how this would affect Italian naval development in the years to come and I was hoping that it would mean that the navy would be able to develop itself in a way where it is not stymied by the fascist regime.
And he brought up some insightful things in regards to the navy that I had not considered.
Italy not going to war in 1915 means that the Regia Marina loses out on some very valuable operation experience, not only in regards to ships, but also for its fledgling naval air arm. He gave me some numbers for the Italian naval experience during WW1, particularly in regards to air operations in the critical Adriatic Sea to bottle up the Austrian Navy.
"At the end of the war, Regia Marina's air service counted 35 bases, 638 airplanes (552 seaplanes and 86 ground-based bombers and fighters), 227 (with the additional 278 being from the Italian Army Air Force) and a force of 3,098 elements, plus 96 pilots and 961 elements assigned to 46 airships. 51 naval aviators were instructed each year."
"A total of 2,771 bombing raids, 3,467 recon or recognition missions in enemy territory, 9,433 search and attack missions on the sea, 10,385 anti-submarine surveillance flights, and 1,107 air defense or attack missions were completed. Losses totaled 392 aircraft, of which 40 seaplanes were shot down in combat (compared to 130 Austrian seaplanes shot down in combat). A total of 112 men were lost, of which 38 were officers."
"1,630 aircraft were built for the Regia Marina. 893 of these were stricken off for inefficiency or damage, proof of a too fast and probably too diversified development of aerial technology"
That's a lot of numbers and statistics. But for me, what it tells me is that the Regia Marina, despite its losses, losses out on some very valuable operational experience, where its theories and practices can be truly put to the test. Although some of these ideas and concepts were already being floated around in the navy well before the war started, the Great War gave the Regia Marina a chance to put all this into practice and to validate which ideas worked. he argued that without the challenge of fighting in the Adriatic, the development of the Italian MAS boats (the precursors of which during the war were responsible for sink Austrian battleships) will be significantly slowed down and the development of the frogmen (the progenitors of some of the elite naval special forces we have today - like the SEALs) may also be slowed down... or not started at all, at least in Italy. Without the massive build up of naval air power for the war effort, it may also be difficult to advance italian naval aviation too. In a way, the butterfly effect is rathe huge for this branch of the Italian military, to the point that its really up in the air as to what happens to the navy.
Needless to say this was very thought provoking to me, so I thought I would share it with you guys. I think what I took away from this is that, without the Great War, the Regia Marina might get left behind in naval development. Neutrality patrols and cruises would provide experience, but it would be enough and the risk of provoking the Austrians would probably be too great, if we're sticking to canon events.
Any thoughts on this?
Last edited:
The M33 Steel Helmet, which was the standard issue helmet for the Italian Army from 1933 and worn throughout the Second Great War by the neutral Italian Army as well as pre war examples sold to the belligerent nations of the Ukraine, Finland, Bulgaria, and Thailand. The M33 would be used by the Italian Armed Forces for frontline use until ultimately being replaced by Kevlar Helmets in the 1990s and still used in ceremonial use today. In many European made films about the SGW set on the American Front (especially the low budget production ones), many of the actors playing Confederate soldiers would often be seen wearing these and the Polish wz. 31 helmets in lieu of the actual Sydenham M-1937 Helmet due to their resemblance to the Confederate design.
What I really like about this is, for a couple of your posts so far about helmets, including this one, you always mention how they are used in movies. Its a nice touch that fleshes out things. In this case the reasoning to why the Italian helmet is used in place of not have the M1 Helmet... or the Sydenham helmet in this case.
A positive aspect to all this though... the Italian Francesco Caracciolo-class battleships are likely to be built if Italy remains neutral in in the Great War. Their plans were drafted before the war started and efforts were already underway to lay their hulls down in 1914. Their completion time would have had them ready by 1917 or 1918. WW1 in our world halted their construction to free up resources to build smaller ships.
With Austria-Hungary halting much of their production of battleships during the war to free up their own resources, it is likely that the Regia Marina, if it continued to build this class of battleship, will be in a better position as compared to the Austrian Navy in terms of the number of capital ships they have. And as the Great War would progress badly for the Entente, with Germany and especially Austria victorious by 1917, there will likely be a justifiable reason to build this class - to ensure Italian neutrality is respected.
Italy will also likely be in a better economic position after 1917. I understand we talked about this before on the thread. With significantly more cash in their pockets and with few debts to repay, the navy might not see significant budgetary restraints as it did our world after the war. This gives Italy a significant advantage economically speaking over its neighbors/rivals.
Of course there are some downsides to this. Trieste is still in Austrian hands and its ports were significant enough to facilitate Italian naval production in the years after the war. Also, there would still likely be significant political tension within the country because of not going to war and Italy might face political isolation from both the Entente and the Central Powers in the years to come.
With Austria-Hungary halting much of their production of battleships during the war to free up their own resources, it is likely that the Regia Marina, if it continued to build this class of battleship, will be in a better position as compared to the Austrian Navy in terms of the number of capital ships they have. And as the Great War would progress badly for the Entente, with Germany and especially Austria victorious by 1917, there will likely be a justifiable reason to build this class - to ensure Italian neutrality is respected.
Italy will also likely be in a better economic position after 1917. I understand we talked about this before on the thread. With significantly more cash in their pockets and with few debts to repay, the navy might not see significant budgetary restraints as it did our world after the war. This gives Italy a significant advantage economically speaking over its neighbors/rivals.
Of course there are some downsides to this. Trieste is still in Austrian hands and its ports were significant enough to facilitate Italian naval production in the years after the war. Also, there would still likely be significant political tension within the country because of not going to war and Italy might face political isolation from both the Entente and the Central Powers in the years to come.
coffeebreakcigarette
Banned
Well, it is interesting, as an half Italian (actually live and one parent is "full blooded" Brazilian-born Bolognese ) to see so many of non-Italians, taking an interest in a TL involving the Bel Paese. If anybody needs help, I am here.
I wonder where/how this guys will end up in our timeline. They were the best Italian politicians in OTL :
Aldo Moro
Enrico Berlinguer
Giorgio Almirante
Bettino Craxi
They had all flaws but compared to what Italy has now... an authoritarian government headed by businessmen, a parliament run by a showgirl (probably Berlusconi lover) and a foreign affairs minister who use to sell beverages at the football stadiums...who comes from a movement who betrayed all its values as soon as they were power (or maybe when Casaleggio died, who knows).
I wonder where/how this guys will end up in our timeline. They were the best Italian politicians in OTL :
Aldo Moro
Enrico Berlinguer
Giorgio Almirante
Bettino Craxi
They had all flaws but compared to what Italy has now... an authoritarian government headed by businessmen, a parliament run by a showgirl (probably Berlusconi lover) and a foreign affairs minister who use to sell beverages at the football stadiums...who comes from a movement who betrayed all its values as soon as they were power (or maybe when Casaleggio died, who knows).
Well, who are these people then? Would they have been active in the 1910's, 20's, 30's, or 40's? In this case Italy would have been neutral in both the Great War and the Second Great War.
coffeebreakcigarette
Banned
@Alterwright I think they could all pretty active :
Aldo Moro , born in 1916, Christian Democracy, assassinated by murderous thugs in 1978, his party probably let him die.
Likely a "conservative" with leftist sympathies in TL191
Enrico Berlinguer, born in 1922, Italian Communist Party, died in 1984 , he is the reason why Communism was very popular back then but he was more a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist. Apparently he talked a lot (and pleasantly) with his "theorically" adversary below, so much so that he visited his grave when the ICP leader died. Likely socialdemocrat IN TL191
Giorgio Almirante, born in 1914, Italian Social Movement, neofascist (although I have my reasons to not consider him such), is party at one point managed to gather 26% of the vote. He even voted in favor of the divorce law. He was the "left wing" of the Italian Social movement despite in his latter life he was more akin to a Red World mod nationalconservative. If Mussolini stays a socialist, he will most likely be one also. Otherwise just a decent / optimal journalist in TL191
Bettino Craxi, born in 1934, Italian Socialist Party (not to be confused with the one above guys), people might rethink his history considering we just found out that the judiciary has been politically motivated just recently and must have been during Tangentopoli (Kickbacksville).
More social democrat?