TL-191: Pax Romana - Neutrality for the Kingdom of Italy (1914-1944)

Part of the reason the Civil War in Spain might drag on in this timeline is that the Nationalist take their time in exploiting the weaknesses of the other factions lack of cooperation.

yep is a good explanation and regarding the monarchist faction that the italian government will support, well without doubt the Alfonsist as the Carlist are a little too conservative catholic for the italian taste, after all the agreement with the church is still fresh and even the christian party the Partito Popolare is not that level of ultrahortodoxy and probably too liberal for the Carlist
 
yep is a good explanation and regarding the monarchist faction that the italian government will support, well without doubt the Alfonsist as the Carlist are a little too conservative catholic for the italian taste, after all the agreement with the church is still fresh and even the christian party the Partito Popolare is not that level of ultrahortodoxy and probably too liberal for the Carlist
What about the Pope and the Vatican? The Carlists at one point claimed to be the Church’s most fervent advocate in the civil war I believe, wanting to protect the clergy there. I’m curious as to how they would view the Carlists in this timeline, and how they actually viewed them in our timeline.
 
What about the Pope and the Vatican? The Carlists at one point claimed to be the Church’s most fervent advocate in the civil war I believe, wanting to protect the clergy there. I’m curious as to how they would view the Carlists in this timeline, and how they actually viewed them in our timeline.

Well with the priest being killed in OTL by group of nationalist (and the general hostility against the church of this faction...for a lot of reason), well the Vatican was very hard pressed in not give to the Carlist support but ITTL even the Vatican will be divided on who supporting and it's very probable that will try to be a peacebrocker between the two faction so that they fight together instead that separate faction that are much easier to deal. In general Carlist will be supported by the more conservative faction of the Vatican while the less conservative will go with the Alfonsist
 
CF9B76BA-015C-4FBD-B735-3C4FCAA69B48.jpeg

^^^ ——— A pair of Carro Veloce L3/33 tan letters in Spanish Monarchist service, operated by their Italian crews, 1937. As the Spanish Civil War intensified, volunteers flooded in from around the world for the opportunity to fight. Italian government support for the Monarchist cause was fairly limited, complicated more by the various smaller factions all vying for power. Nonetheless, thousands of Italian volunteers joined various sides of the conflict and thousands of older Italian rifles, machine guns, mortars, artillery pieces, and tanks were sent over by the Italian government to support the Monarchists.
 
006FB69E-3216-40F0-A45A-C9D4A46FA0DE.jpeg

^^^ ——— A pair of captured Italian CR. 32 biplanes in use by the Fuerza Aérea Nacional (Nationalist Air Force), 1937. This aircraft was widely known throughout Europe for its aerobatic displays. It had remarkable maneuverability for its time, with robust construction and excellent handling, making it incredibly popular with pilots. During the Spanish Civil War, at least 120 aircraft were sent to the Monarchists. They proved to be some of the most feared planes in the Monarchist arsenal, out-classing the Russian and British biplanes that made up the backbone of the Nationalist Air Force. The few that were captured were given to Nationalist ace pilots.
 
Well with the priest being killed in OTL by group of nationalist (and the general hostility against the church of this faction...for a lot of reason), well the Vatican was very hard pressed in not give to the Carlist support but ITTL even the Vatican will be divided on who supporting and it's very probable that will try to be a peacebrocker between the two faction so that they fight together instead that separate faction that are much easier to deal. In general Carlist will be supported by the more conservative faction of the Vatican while the less conservative will go with the Alfonsist

So then the Vatican would be very hesitant to support any side in the war, instead arguing for a peaceful resolution.

On the other hand, more hardline priests and bishops might give clandestine or silent support to the Carlists or other Catholic aligned factions, again putting Italy in a tough position diplomatically.

I can see Italy and the Vatican condemning the Nationalists officially, but on the ground in Spain that support can potentially be very complicated just because of how much of an utter mess the civil war is, with clergy split between loyalties.
 
1623568879722.png


^^^ --- My headcanon and small draft for a potential TL-191 Spanish Civil War, with Italy and the Vatican officially supporting the Alfonsist Kingdom of Spain. I wasn't able to add the Carlists as a fourth separate faction, but suffice to say they would be something of a wild card, pretty much fighting everyone at some point or another, but acting as an unofficial and reluctant co-belligerent of the Nationalists for a period.
 
0AEF74C6-8A73-4ABD-8952-3DEE841E172F.jpeg

^^^ ——— A group of Italian volunteers from a Marxist aligned battalion posing for an informal picture just outside Barcelona, July 1937. Although the Spanish Civil War was ignited by a failed Nationalist coup against the Alfonsist regime from elements within the army, the tumultuous political and economic environment of Spain meant that socialist and Marxist movements were able to thrive, gaining astonishingly high support from the masses of lower class workers and students. As Falangist and Alfonsist forces fought each other, each side was taken by surprise by the sudden surge red militias taking up arms in the name revolution. Thousands of volunteers from around the world flocked to the socialist cause in Spain, many of whom were veterans of previous failed revolutions in their home countries. The Iberian peninsula was ripe for revolution and for the first time in years it seemed the dream of a truly socialist republic may be realized in Spain.
 
Last edited:
Crossposting this from the Secondary nations thread.

Beretta_38.jpg

Despite officially being a neutral nation during the Second Great War, the Beretta Company from the Kingdom of Italy none the less had sold large numbers of it's Moschetto Automatico Beretta Modello 1938 or just the MAB 38 submachine-gun to both the French and British Armies in which they prove popular with the soldiers of those respective armies as well as German soldiers who had captured them. Other Second Great War era users of the type included Romania, Argentina, Persia, Morocco, Japan (who've even licensed produced the weapon as the Type 2) as well as the Italian Armed Forces who would use the MAB 38 up until it's replacement by the MAB 57 Assault Carbine in the late 1950s as a frontline weapon.
 
Crossposting this from the Secondary nations thread.

Beretta_38.jpg

Despite officially being a neutral nation during the Second Great War, the Beretta Company from the Kingdom of Italy none the less had sold large numbers of it's Moschetto Automatico Beretta Modello 1938 or just the MAB 38 submachine-gun to both the French and British Armies in which they prove popular with the soldiers of those respective armies as well as German soldiers who had captured them. Other Second Great War era users of the type included Romania, Argentina, Persia, Morocco, Japan (who've even licensed produced the weapon as the Type 2) as well as the Italian Armed Forces who would use the MAB 38 up until it's replacement by the MAB 57 Assault Carbine in the late 1950s as a frontline weapon.

It almost seems like Italy is a significant arms supplier in neutrality, producing fairly good quality guns for their own army as well as exporting them for in other armies.

I really like the MAB-38 too. Good recoil and balance, and fairly accurate.
 
I thought this article from this blog may be helpful for flushing out the Italians arm industry and export
 
Last edited:
I thought this article from this blog may be helpful for flushing out the Italians arm industry and export
What’s this then?
 
Do we foresee the Regia Marina being a potent force here in this timeline? Perhaps a few of the ships they thought of building get built? What about carriers? I foresee a few things being butterflied away.
 
What sort of combat planes would the Regia Aeronautica field during the Second Great War (though probably the same as OTL and I have done a post about the Mc. 202 Folgore in the past.)
 
What sort of combat planes would the Regia Aeronautica field during the Second Great War (though probably the same as OTL and I have done a post about the Mc. 202 Folgore in the past.)

I think it’s safe to say most of the Fiat planes and anything by Celestino might still be around. This means the biplanes of the interwar period are still in the air. I mentioned that they would be operated by the Italians and Spanish a few times.

As for the WW2 era monoplanes, I’d have to look at the designers and such.
 
Hm. As far I know, I believe most of the Italian aircraft designs would still be around. Perhaps the projects that were specifically funded by Mussolini and his government never see fruition, but even then the Kingdom of Italy would still have all its designers and companies around to make these aircraft. It’s not like the US in this timeline, where certain companies or even designers might be butterflied away due to drastically different circumstances.

Perhaps Italy is better off in this case. Even though they might never get involved in any war, flashpoints with their neighbors is still a motivator for innovation. If it means being ahead of their possible enemies then I can see some of Italy’s more successful designs being adopted.

... though it might take a real war for them to really force them to make some of these designs. Not sure on that.
 
Regarding italian military developement, well neutrality in the first Great War, no Ethiopia and a more limited involvement in the Spanish Civil War mean from one side much more money availabe but also a smaller army, no massive popular mobilization as OTL (even if an enlargement will happen due to the strategic situation and because somekind of mobilization during the war will happen if only for security measure...basically like Switzerland).
More importantly no fascism and this mean, less interservice rivality (Benny loved put the 3 service against each other as a mean to protect his job), less tollerance with the local conglomerate when they can't deliver some good products (there will still be a lot, but less than during fascism and a lot less problem in buying from foreign nations...and this will put firm like Ansaldo and Fiat to be more competitive, at least a little).

I think that with this different political and economic situation, some OTL project that failed here can succeed like the production of the Fiat A.76 engine and so plane like the Fiat G.50ter and the Macchi MC.201 will exist and it's very probable that they will form the overwhelming core of Italian Air Force, with the Biplane Fiat CR.42 butterflyed away as the lesson of the Spanish Civil War has been duly taken*.
In my headcanon during the war small (relatively) lot of more advanced fighter planes like the MC.202 and 205 were produced for the Italian Air Forces but much more for the export market, till the end of the conflict when the planes were quickly changed with the newest model like the MC.207, the Fiat G.56 and the Reggiane Re.2006 (all of that remained unbuilt in OTL). Ironically all this planes have engine derivative of the German DB-600 series as the italians were able to take many weapons captured by the entente and study them so to copy it later (a fact that was not taken well from Berlin at diplomatic level)
As medium bomber the OTL unsuccesfull CANT Z.1018 will be ITTL put on line by the last year of war, meanwhile the CANT Z.1007ter will be the premier bomber, an honor that will divide with the SM.79 III. At least it's very probable that the project of the radar alerting system will goes on so the Folaga system will be operational

The army will be more difficult as it's the stronghold of the savoyards generals and so i don't expect a lot of modernization and the OTL Balbo idea of reduce the size of the army so to have few but very well equipped division will immedeiately shoot down but at the same time also the binary division will be voted down i suspect that motorization will happen, as some level of upgrade of the artillery park, the upgrade of the carcano rifle and the aquisition of the armaguerra mod.39 as infantry weapons. Tanks will be probably be the same type but with better armour and with more easy production, frankly i expect the P.40 to enter in service before the end of the war
Oh wait. That was already addressed to some degree before I think.
You mean this:

IMVHO this is a very probable OOB of Regia Marina at the eve of the second great war, it take in consideration (or at least try) budget and different political system

aircraft carrier: 1 (A)

A - OTL Project by Admiral Bonfiglietti in OTL 1929, 15.000ton, max speed 28/29 as air complement had a naval version of the Fiat G.50, unlike the other ships that have as on board plane the Reggiane Re.2000 catapultabile



Progetto Bonfiglietti 3-kQ7C--680x150@LaStampa.it.jpg



Battleships: 8 **
Montecuccoli Class : 4 (modernizated on the same manner of the Count of Cavour and Caio Dulio)
Count of Cavour Class: 2 (Modernizated as OTL)
Caio Dulio Class. 2 (modernizated as OTL)

Heavy Crusier: 7
Venezia Class: 3 (roughly equivalent to the Trento)
Genoa Class: 4 (roughly equivalent to the Zara)

Light Crusier: 12
Alberto da Giussano Class 10
Colleoni Class:2 (B)

B - originally part of the same class and batch of the Alberto da Giussano, they were transformed in specializated Anti Aircraft Crusier in the late 30's

Destroyers: 50/60 of various class
Torpedo Boat: 60/70 of various class
Submarines : 110 of various class

*Even OTL the brass know that the plane was outdatated but between Fiat political clout and the fact that the other were much slower to produce, the Biplane won a big contract, so the CR.32 battles in spain are seen as the swan's song of the biplane ITTL as here the plane is the last of the series

** later during the Great war all the battleship (and the aircraft carrier) were upgraded with the installation of EC3/ter Gufo radar
 
Regarding italian military developement, well neutrality in the first Great War, no Ethiopia and a more limited involvement in the Spanish Civil War mean from one side much more money availabe but also a smaller army, no massive popular mobilization as OTL (even if an enlargement will happen due to the strategic situation and because somekind of mobilization during the war will happen if only for security measure...basically like Switzerland).
More importantly no fascism and this mean, less interservice rivality (Benny loved put the 3 service against each other as a mean to protect his job), less tollerance with the local conglomerate when they can't deliver some good products (there will still be a lot, but less than during fascism and a lot less problem in buying from foreign nations...and this will put firm like Ansaldo and Fiat to be more competitive, at least a little).

I think that with this different political and economic situation, some OTL project that failed here can succeed like the production of the Fiat A.76 engine and so plane like the Fiat G.50ter and the Macchi MC.201 will exist and it's very probable that they will form the overwhelming core of Italian Air Force, with the Biplane Fiat CR.42 butterflyed away as the lesson of the Spanish Civil War has been duly taken*.

This is some interesting insight. So, in this case Italian neutrality and the absence of a strong fascist government means that aircraft development can progress fairly well for Italy. And with no detrimental inter-service rivalry encouraged by a dictator who wants to keep power we may see models of aircraft enter service earlier, albeit in smaller numbers and potentially for export.

Its interesting you say the CR.42 would be the one butterflied away. So in this case the CR.32 might be the last true Italian biplane before companies switch over to full production of monoplane designs. They may be produced in smaller numbers, but development and production can progress at

In my headcanon during the war small (relatively) lot of more advanced fighter planes like the MC.202 and 205 were produced for the Italian Air Forces but much more for the export market, till the end of the conflict when the planes were quickly changed with the newest model like the MC.207, the Fiat G.56 and the Reggiane Re.2006 (all of that remained unbuilt in OTL). Ironically all this planes have engine derivative of the German DB-600 series as the italians were able to take many weapons captured by the entente and study them so to copy it later (a fact that was not taken well from Berlin at diplomatic level)

So the Italians are able to observe aircraft development in other countries with more freedom then, allowing them to take lessons and implement ideas more readily.

Even OTL the brass know that the plane was outdatated but between Fiat political clout and the fact that the other were much slower to produce, the Biplane won a big contract, so the CR.32 battles in spain are seen as the swan's song of the biplane ITTL as here the plane is the last of the series

I think this really hits the point home for me then. This makes sense. Perhaps in this case without the fascists in power and having a preference for Fiat, aircraft development truly is allowed to progress at a better place in Italy. I was aware that political favoritism might be the cause of some problems for Italy, but I didn’t know it extended this far into technical development.

Mussolini not being power really saves aircraft development then.
 
Top