TL-191: Pax Romana - Neutrality for the Kingdom of Italy (1914-1944)

Well, it is interesting, as an half Italian (actually live and one parent is "full blooded" Brazilian-born Bolognese ) to see so many of non-Italians, taking an interest in a TL involving the Bel Paese. If anybody needs help, I am here.

I wonder where/how this guys will end up in our timeline. They were the best Italian politicians in OTL :

Aldo Moro


View attachment 560703
I am minimally familiar with Aldo Moro due to his friendship with then-Substitute of the Secretary of State Montini. The future of Socialism or Communism in Italy may not be the same as it was in real-life, since the world still lacks a recognizable Marxist-Leninist State (except for, maybe, Spain).

I know that he was killed by the Red Brigades, but I don’t know the causes behind that event.
 
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I am minimally familiar with Aldo Moro due to his friendship with then-Substitute of the Secretary of State Montini. The future of Socialism or Communism in Italy may not be the same as it was in real-life, since the world still lacks a recognizable Marxist-Leninist State (except for, maybe, Spain).

I know that he was killed by the Red Brigades, but I don’t know the causes behind that event.
The real target was Andreotti...and considering Andreotti was mafia involved I can see why he was originally intended.
 
I am minimally familiar with Aldo Moro due to his friendship with then-Substitute of the Secretary of State Montini. The future of Socialism or Communism in Italy may not be the same as it was in real-life, since the world still lacks a recognizable Marxist-Leninist State (except for, maybe, Spain).

I know that he was killed by the Red Brigades, but I don’t know the causes behind that event.
Also when they kidnapped Moro, even the Red Brigades, even the kidnappers admitted they were really lucky (and they don't say it straight, but perhaps it was too easy) because the protection was barely trained and their guns were in the trunk...by specific orders.
 
I'm sorry, usually I don't write about something that is not the thread topic but when I read such things about my country's history I need to correct them.

Well, it is interesting, as an half Italian (actually live and one parent is "full blooded" Brazilian-born Bolognese ) to see so many of non-Italians, taking an interest in a TL involving the Bel Paese. If anybody needs help, I am here.

I wonder where/how this guys will end up in our timeline. They were the best Italian politicians in OTL :

Aldo Moro


View attachment 560703

Enrico Berlinguer

View attachment 560704

Giorgio Almirante

View attachment 560705

Bettino Craxi

View attachment 560708


They had all flaws but compared to what Italy has now... an authoritarian government headed by businessmen, a parliament run by a showgirl (probably Berlusconi lover) and a foreign affairs minister who use to sell beverages at the football stadiums...who comes from a movement who betrayed all its values as soon as they were power (or maybe when Casaleggio died, who knows).
@Alterwright I think they could all pretty active :

Aldo Moro , born in 1916, Christian Democracy, assassinated by murderous thugs in 1978, his party probably let him die.

Likely a "conservative" with leftist sympathies in TL191

Enrico Berlinguer, born in 1922, Italian Communist Party, died in 1984 , he is the reason why Communism was very popular back then but he was more a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist. Apparently he talked a lot (and pleasantly) with his "theorically" adversary below, so much so that he visited his grave when the ICP leader died. Likely socialdemocrat IN TL191

Giorgio Almirante, born in 1914, Italian Social Movement, neofascist (although I have my reasons to not consider him such), is party at one point managed to gather 26% of the vote. He even voted in favor of the divorce law. He was the "left wing" of the Italian Social movement despite in his latter life he was more akin to a Red World mod nationalconservative. If Mussolini stays a socialist, he will most likely be one also. Otherwise just a decent / optimal journalist in TL191

Bettino Craxi, born in 1934, Italian Socialist Party (not to be confused with the one above guys), people might rethink his history considering we just found out that the judiciary has been politically motivated just recently and must have been during Tangentopoli (Kickbacksville).

More social democrat?
The real target was Andreotti...and considering Andreotti was mafia involved I can see why he was originally intended.
Also when they kidnapped Moro, even the Red Brigades, even the kidnappers admitted they were really lucky (and they don't say it straight, but perhaps it was too easy) because the protection was barely trained and their guns were in the trunk...by specific orders.
First, you cannot compare Aldo Moro and Enrico Berlinguer with Giorgio Almirante and Bettino Craxi.
Moro was a Catholic left-wing with a strong devotion to Church Social Doctrine, who tried to reach reconcilition during the bloody years of the 1970s with his Historical Compromise with the Left. He was kidnapped and killed in 1978 by Red Brigades terrorists, who aimed to take down a big target to boost their popularity and viewed Moro's pro-left position as a way to put the Communist in goverment and transform them in a bourgeois party.
Berlinguer was the popular reformist secretary of Communist Party, founder of anti-Soviet pro-Western "Euro-Communism", open to dialogue with Moro and a genuine democrat.
Together Moro and Berlinguer tried to push for peace and collaboration above political lines during one of the worst period of Italian History.
Giorgio Almirante was fascist, who during the dictatorship headed the infamous "The Defense of the Race" newspaper, collaborated to the Racial Laws writing and push to execute everyone refuse to be drafted "voluntarily" in the Saló Republic army. After the war he founded the neo-fascist Italian Social Movement, with which he defended the neo-fascist terrorists in the Seventies and cover the neofascist hitters who terrorized Italian street during this period. He openly hoped for a Franco-esque Regime or a Greek Colonel's coup for Italy. His allengendly romantic imagine of the "good fascist" is a revisionist position pushed by rightwing Italian parties who tried to paint the extremist communists as having the only responsibility of the Lead Years.
Bettino Craxi was the leader of Socialist Party who accept to disown Socialism in order to pursue center-right policies (as abolishing many welfare programs and pro-workers regulations) and making an alliance with Andreotti and his mob-linked clique. He was then caught in the middle of the Bribestown (as was called Milan, the main Italian financial hub and the headquarters of Craxi political machine) Scandal and became the face of corrupted Italian political class before escaping in Tunisia to avoid arrest. The idea that a group of leftist judges conspired to bring him down is a enormous lie part of the revisionist approach taken by the Italian Right under Berlusconi (and his television, who he obtained thanks to political favors from Craxi) , as he was a Craxi friend and an ally and wanted to discredit the judicial system due his own many trials for corruption, tax evasion and minors prostitution.
So trying to portray Almirante as nice leader and Craxi as a persecuted victim is not only against every history book but also part of a noted rightwing partisan attempt and cultural battle in order to rewrite them for political gain (that started with the more infamous even "Mussolini did also very positive things...") .

Second, of course existed big shadows of Moro Kidnapping, especially about the role of CIA and Italian Secret Services in the entire affair, but, please, avoid the mistakes: the Moro protection men were not some bad trained beginners, they were entitled of his protection many years before and Moro was personal friend with his protection head, Oreste Leonardi. Also it's not true that their guns were in the truck "for specific order": in fact the policeman Raffaele Iozzino, who was in the second car, was able to exit from his vehicle and open fire with his Beretta before being quickly killed by the superior terrorist forces.
So, I understand that using historical falsities can make easier promoting some political positions but this an Alternative History forum, so avoid that because it's anti-historical.

PS and don't worry, frankly no one here cares about your personal opinion about what politicians you dislike but, if we want to be sincere, the right-to-center Confindustria (the Italian business owner national association) is strongly and almost partisanly critical of the current Italian goverment (you know, all pro-poors policies, brrrr) so saying the latter is run by businessmen sounds me a little incorrect. For the rest, if I want speak about current politics I go in a pub or in the Chat, this is about Alternative History, so please limit yourself.
 
I'm sorry, usually I don't write about something that is not the thread topic but when I read such things about my country's history I need to correct them.








First, you cannot compare Aldo Moro and Enrico Berlinguer with Giorgio Almirante and Bettino Craxi.
Moro was a Catholic left-wing with a strong devotion to Church Social Doctrine, who tried to reach reconcilition during the bloody years of the 1970s with his Historical Compromise with the Left. He was kidnapped and killed in 1978 by Red Brigades terrorists, who aimed to take down a big target to boost their popularity and viewed Moro's pro-left position as a way to put the Communist in goverment and transform them in a bourgeois party.
Berlinguer was the popular reformist secretary of Communist Party, founder of anti-Soviet pro-Western "Euro-Communism", open to dialogue with Moro and a genuine democrat.
Together Moro and Berlinguer tried to push for peace and collaboration above political lines during one of the worst period of Italian History.
Giorgio Almirante was fascist, who during the dictatorship headed the infamous "The Defense of the Race" newspaper, collaborated to the Racial Laws writing and push to execute everyone refuse to be drafted "voluntarily" in the Saló Republic army. After the war he founded the neo-fascist Italian Social Movement, with which he defended the neo-fascist terrorists in the Seventies and cover the neofascist hitters who terrorized Italian street during this period. He openly hoped for a Franco-esque Regime or a Greek Colonel's coup for Italy. His allengendly romantic imagine of the "good fascist" is a revisionist position pushed by rightwing Italian parties who tried to paint the extremist communists as having the only responsibility of the Lead Years.
Bettino Craxi was the leader of Socialist Party who accept to disown Socialism in order to pursue center-right policies (as abolishing many welfare programs and pro-workers regulations) and making an alliance with Andreotti and his mob-linked clique. He was then caught in the middle of the Bribestown (as was called Milan, the main Italian financial hub and the headquarters of Craxi political machine) Scandal and became the face of corrupted Italian political class before escaping in Tunisia to avoid arrest. The idea that a group of leftist judges conspired to bring him down is a enormous lie part of the revisionist approach taken by the Italian Right under Berlusconi (and his television, who he obtained thanks to political favors from Craxi) , as he was a Craxi friend and an ally and wanted to discredit the judicial system due his own many trials for corruption, tax evasion and minors prostitution.
So trying to portray Almirante as nice leader and Craxi as a persecuted victim is not only against every history book but also part of a noted rightwing partisan attempt and cultural battle in order to rewrite them for political gain (that started with the more infamous even "Mussolini did also very positive things...") .

Second, of course existed big shadows of Moro Kidnapping, especially about the role of CIA and Italian Secret Services in the entire affair, but, please, avoid the mistakes: the Moro protection men were not some bad trained beginners, they were entitled of his protection many years before and Moro was personal friend with his protection head, Oreste Leonardi. Also it's not true that their guns were in the truck "for specific order": in fact the policeman Raffaele Iozzino, who was in the second car, was able to exit from his vehicle and open fire with his Beretta before being quickly killed by the superior terrorist forces.
So, I understand that using historical falsities can make easier promoting some political positions but this an Alternative History forum, so avoid that because it's anti-historical.

PS and don't worry, frankly no one here cares about your personal opinion about what politicians you dislike but, if we want to be sincere, the right-to-center Confindustria (the Italian business owner national association) is strongly and almost partisanly critical of the current Italian goverment (you know, all pro-poors policies, brrrr) so saying the latter is run by businessmen sounds me a little incorrect. For the rest, if I want speak about current politics I go in a pub or in the Chat, this is about Alternative History, so please limit yourself.
So, we have different opinions.


  1. So let's start with your first sentence : "you cannot compare..." they were all great politicians, each in its own merit. It is not like they were perfect human beings, but you seem one to judge the events of yesterday with they eyes today, especially in a reductive way and it seems your sore point is Almirante for some reason.
  2. Regarding Moro, is a problem that hypothesize about him being a Conservative in TL191 ?
  3. Regarding Giorgio Almirante, he made is position clear regarding what he wrote in the "La difesa della razza" :
    I wish I had English sub on this video but so far haven't found any. Regarding the fact that he threatened people with death who didn't join the army of Italian Social Republic , you treat him like he was particulary unique in all of history. Which he clearly wasn't. And yes, he , together with the other 3 I mentioned , was a nice leader. Was he a saint ? No. Was Bettino Craxi one? Also no. As a far leftist, I think were objectively good politicians.
  4. Using the word fascist after the 28th of April 1945 is futile, it has the same value nowadays of Conservatives calling someone "commie" after 25 December 1991 : useless.
  5. You forget that Giorgio Almirante and Berlinguer did talk in order to collaborate and to avoid bloodshed , it was an hidden fact until much later. GA also went to the burial chamber of EB, a deed that surprised everyone. There is also a book discussing it which I read , in Italian only so far, https://www.amazon.it/gesto-Almirante-Berlinguer-Antonio-Padellaro/dp/8899784698/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=70253514238&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrvv3BRAJEiwAhwOdM2D5al6EkZe0a_U4HzoqwGdRTtaKCHI-_WrpR4bdnU5vtrorZ6i7tBoCXicQAvD_BwE&hvadid=343556437338&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1008488&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2701843661847428429&hvtargid=kwd-728703910020&hydadcr=18819_1824098&keywords=il+gesto+di+almirante+e+berlinguer&qid=1593793174&sr=8-1&tag=slhyin-21 that discusses the relation between the two.
  6. Considering that we just found out many in our judiciary were politically motivated to take out two of our most political figures (honestly I would rather vote for the devil than them) , I am very doubtful on how those events were narrated to us and have my own view on the matter . Is that being anti-historical? No, also I never said leftist judges. But considering that judge Palamara and his clique were found out to have done sentences for political favors, the "conspiracy theory " is no longer a valid excuse to defend one of the reviled institutions in Italy (you forgot to mention that some cases here can take decades to be "over") . And said "conspiracy" wasn't exclusive of Berlusconi.
  7. About the Moro escort : tell me, how is that possible that an insurgent group was able to take out one of the most well known VIPs ?
  8. Limit myself ? Yeah, fat chance of that happening. I am not denying a genocide or similiar , I am not partaking into historical revisionism of the sort.
 
So, we have different opinions.


  1. So let's start with your first sentence : "you cannot compare..." they were all great politicians, each in its own merit. It is not like they were perfect human beings, but you seem one to judge the events of yesterday with they eyes today, especially in a reductive way and it seems your sore point is Almirante for some reason.
  2. Regarding Moro, is a problem that hypothesize about him being a Conservative in TL191 ?
  3. Regarding Giorgio Almirante, he made is position clear regarding what he wrote in the "La difesa della razza" :
    I wish I had English sub on this video but so far haven't found any. Regarding the fact that he threatened people with death who didn't join the army of Italian Social Republic , you treat him like he was particulary unique in all of history. Which he clearly wasn't. And yes, he , together with the other 3 I mentioned , was a nice leader. Was he a saint ? No. Was Bettino Craxi one? Also no. As a far leftist, I think were objectively good politicians.
  4. Using the word fascist after the 28th of April 1945 is futile, it has the same value nowadays of Conservatives calling someone "commie" after 25 December 1991 : useless.
  5. You forget that Giorgio Almirante and Berlinguer did talk in order to collaborate and to avoid bloodshed , it was an hidden fact until much later. GA also went to the burial chamber of EB, a deed that surprised everyone. There is also a book discussing it which I read , in Italian only so far, https://www.amazon.it/gesto-Almirante-Berlinguer-Antonio-Padellaro/dp/8899784698/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=70253514238&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrvv3BRAJEiwAhwOdM2D5al6EkZe0a_U4HzoqwGdRTtaKCHI-_WrpR4bdnU5vtrorZ6i7tBoCXicQAvD_BwE&hvadid=343556437338&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1008488&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2701843661847428429&hvtargid=kwd-728703910020&hydadcr=18819_1824098&keywords=il+gesto+di+almirante+e+berlinguer&qid=1593793174&sr=8-1&tag=slhyin-21 that discusses the relation between the two.
  6. Considering that we just found out many in our judiciary were politically motivated to take out two of our most political figures (honestly I would rather vote for the devil than them) , I am very doubtful on how those events were narrated to us and have my own view on the matter . Is that being anti-historical? No, also I never said leftist judges. But considering that judge Palamara and his clique were found out to have done sentences for political favors, the "conspiracy theory " is no longer a valid excuse to defend one of the reviled institutions in Italy (you forgot to mention that some cases here can take decades to be "over") . And said "conspiracy" wasn't exclusive of Berlusconi.
  7. About the Moro escort : tell me, how is that possible that an insurgent group was able to take out one of the most well known VIPs ?
  8. Limit myself ? Yeah, fat chance of that happening. I am not denying a genocide or similiar , I am not partaking into historical revisionism of the sort.
Yep, I agree: we have different opinions, the only difference is that mine ones are History, yours ones are partisan talking points.
First, why you cannot compare? Well, because a neo-fascist who made repeatedly supportive comments in favor of Black (Neo-Fascist) Terrorism because this remembered him the joyful crimes of his past when he was a loyal and zealous collaborator of Hitler and Mussolini and a ruthless politician who never did a good reform in his life and buildt the greatest corruption machine of Italian history betraying his party's ideals to ally himself with Andreotti and his Mafia friends (I don't know you, but I see an incoherence calling "great leader" a man who ally himself with an other me that you defined a Mafia-man...) were not really in the "Great Leader" category, but they can fill the criminal one.
Oh, and I'm not speaking reductively about Almirante: he was never at goverment, so the only things we can judge are his post-war rhetoric and his past. Maybe you heard about that: Italian towns burned to ground, people executed, Jews packed on trains,... It's called Second World War and yes, Almirante was on the bad side: he was one of more zealous journalist of "La Difesa della Razza", he wrote the first article, not the second, not the third, the first! He collaborated to the Racial Laws and then, when the country was invaded by Nazis he choose the Hitler's side and became one of heads of the Culture/Propaganda Minister of Mussolini's puppet regime.
The video is laughable: a (probably Israelian) journalist asks what is his opinion about Israel, considering his past; he says that he is pro-Israel because, in all his past, the only thing that he doesn't disown but maybe reconside is his position when he was a journalist. No a word about collaboration, no a word about his activities as loyal agent of Mussolini, no a word about Holocaust, he never say the word racism or anti-semitic. So the only thing we get is that now he is pro-Israel: credibility under zero, no doubts.
Was he a nice leader? Oh yeah, if you are a Fascist or like castor oil surely you can get along with him.

"Using the word fascist after 1945 is useless": this is an other typical talking point of Italian (far) right trying to make people forget about their past crimes or to hidden their openly far-right positions. But speaking about Almirante it was not me to introduce the word "Fascism" about him but Almirante himself: he was always proud of his Fascist past and often he boasts his Fascist positions and credentials, especially during his rallies full of Roman salutes and Fascist songs. So I can agree to not use the word Fascism after 1945 only if the Fascists accept their defeat and renounce to Fascist policies and to call themselves in this way. But you know many people love living in the past...

I didn't forget the Padellaro's book, I read about it and I know about the "secret channel", a sort of Red Line, between Almirante and Berlinguer to avoid a full escalation. But this is the minimum and doesn't cancel the Fascist past and Neo-Fascist present of Almirante and his links with Black Terrorism, coup plotters (especially Junio Valerio Borghese) and P2 Masonic Lodge conspiracy. His gesture at Berlinguer funeral was touching but all his life was devoted to destroying all what Berlinguer believed: Freedom, Democracy, Socialism, National Unity, the same Republic's existence. Almirante was a Fascist because he wanted to be one and the Fascism is enemy of everyone in every times, in every countries. Plain and simple.

Man, you need really to read the papers: never and I say never an investigation has found that some judges jailed someone for political reasons, never. There we are some cases of corruption and some of incompetence, of course, as in all countries, but the idea that a secret cabal of judges suddenly decided to take down Craxi (after more then ten years in goverment, they are really slow, you are right!) and Berlusconi (I imagine they are the two figures you mentioned. No one other started crying about judges conspiracies after they were caught with their bribes) is a total partisan falsity, spreaded by rightwing media. But, please, I'm sure you have some prove about that, I don't know, maybe papers, witnesses, sentences, even a graffito in a toilet who says the judges did that. Oh right, there is nothing but rhetoric, nevermind.
You need to read the Palamara Case papers too: yep, this is a big corruption scandals about judges but the bribes were to get nomination for some roles, as prosecutors or supreme judges, not to influence the sentence, so this is not the case (and I can't find a good reason to link a corrupt judge in 2020 to Craxi indicted in 1992 and I'm creative, believe me).
The "judges conspiracy" is not an excuse or a my invention, but a rallying cry created by the right to defend themselves by numerous corruption, Mafia-linking, prostitution scandals. Of course, the left has scandals too but they didn't scream about conspiracies everything.
Yep, the trials are slow in Italy, you know, after decades of defunding and cuts we're lucky to have even the trials, but again you are in fault: every polls show that the most reviled group in Italy is not the judicial system but the political class. Can you found why? Yes, corruption...
About the Moro kidnapping, I don't know: how was that possible a stupid single guy called John Hinckley was able to arrive to few steps from Reagan and almost kill him 19 years after JFK? And how was that possible the same year a Turkish terrorist almost take down the Pope in Saint Peter's Square? These things simply happen: they planned accurately that, found a weak point, blocked the street, made a surprise attack, killed the escort and kidnapped Moro. If you want to speak about the dark points of Moro deaths there are many (for example the Interior Ministry refused an armored car for Moro few days before, for example the police had a whistle about terrorist shelter but they didn't follow it) but about escort really I can't see anything of what are you saying.

PS when I asked you to limit yourself I intended to limit your comments on the topic, as speaking of Current Politics or about your personal opinion about Almirante are matter of Chat, not of the AH Forum. I never intended suggesting you were using violent words or something like that.
 
Yep, I agree: we have different opinions, the only difference is that mine ones are History, yours ones are partisan talking points.
First, why you cannot compare? Well, because a neo-fascist who made repeatedly supportive comments in favor of Black (Neo-Fascist) Terrorism because this remembered him the joyful crimes of his past when he was a loyal and zealous collaborator of Hitler and Mussolini and a ruthless politician who never did a good reform in his life and buildt the greatest corruption machine of Italian history betraying his party's ideals to ally himself with Andreotti and his Mafia friends (I don't know you, but I see an incoherence calling "great leader" a man who ally himself with an other me that you defined a Mafia-man...) were not really in the "Great Leader" category, but they can fill the criminal one.
Oh, and I'm not speaking reductively about Almirante: he was never at goverment, so the only things we can judge are his post-war rhetoric and his past. Maybe you heard about that: Italian towns burned to ground, people executed, Jews packed on trains,... It's called Second World War and yes, Almirante was on the bad side: he was one of more zealous journalist of "La Difesa della Razza", he wrote the first article, not the second, not the third, the first! He collaborated to the Racial Laws and then, when the country was invaded by Nazis he choose the Hitler's side and became one of heads of the Culture/Propaganda Minister of Mussolini's puppet regime.
The video is laughable: a (probably Israelian) journalist asks what is his opinion about Israel, considering his past; he says that he is pro-Israel because, in all his past, the only thing that he doesn't disown but maybe reconside is his position when he was a journalist. No a word about collaboration, no a word about his activities as loyal agent of Mussolini, no a word about Holocaust, he never say the word racism or anti-semitic. So the only thing we get is that now he is pro-Israel: credibility under zero, no doubts.
Was he a nice leader? Oh yeah, if you are a Fascist or like castor oil surely you can get along with him.

"Using the word fascist after 1945 is useless": this is an other typical talking point of Italian (far) right trying to make people forget about their past crimes or to hidden their openly far-right positions. But speaking about Almirante it was not me to introduce the word "Fascism" about him but Almirante himself: he was always proud of his Fascist past and often he boasts his Fascist positions and credentials, especially during his rallies full of Roman salutes and Fascist songs. So I can agree to not use the word Fascism after 1945 only if the Fascists accept their defeat and renounce to Fascist policies and to call themselves in this way. But you know many people love living in the past...

I didn't forget the Padellaro's book, I read about it and I know about the "secret channel", a sort of Red Line, between Almirante and Berlinguer to avoid a full escalation. But this is the minimum and doesn't cancel the Fascist past and Neo-Fascist present of Almirante and his links with Black Terrorism, coup plotters (especially Junio Valerio Borghese) and P2 Masonic Lodge conspiracy. His gesture at Berlinguer funeral was touching but all his life was devoted to destroying all what Berlinguer believed: Freedom, Democracy, Socialism, National Unity, the same Republic's existence. Almirante was a Fascist because he wanted to be one and the Fascism is enemy of everyone in every times, in every countries. Plain and simple.

Man, you need really to read the papers: never and I say never an investigation has found that some judges jailed someone for political reasons, never. There we are some cases of corruption and some of incompetence, of course, as in all countries, but the idea that a secret cabal of judges suddenly decided to take down Craxi (after more then ten years in goverment, they are really slow, you are right!) and Berlusconi (I imagine they are the two figures you mentioned. No one other started crying about judges conspiracies after they were caught with their bribes) is a total partisan falsity, spreaded by rightwing media. But, please, I'm sure you have some prove about that, I don't know, maybe papers, witnesses, sentences, even a graffito in a toilet who says the judges did that. Oh right, there is nothing but rhetoric, nevermind.
You need to read the Palamara Case papers too: yep, this is a big corruption scandals about judges but the bribes were to get nomination for some roles, as prosecutors or supreme judges, not to influence the sentence, so this is not the case (and I can't find a good reason to link a corrupt judge in 2020 to Craxi indicted in 1992 and I'm creative, believe me).
The "judges conspiracy" is not an excuse or a my invention, but a rallying cry created by the right to defend themselves by numerous corruption, Mafia-linking, prostitution scandals. Of course, the left has scandals too but they didn't scream about conspiracies everything.
Yep, the trials are slow in Italy, you know, after decades of defunding and cuts we're lucky to have even the trials, but again you are in fault: every polls show that the most reviled group in Italy is not the judicial system but the political class. Can you found why? Yes, corruption...
About the Moro kidnapping, I don't know: how was that possible a stupid single guy called John Hinckley was able to arrive to few steps from Reagan and almost kill him 19 years after JFK? And how was that possible the same year a Turkish terrorist almost take down the Pope in Saint Peter's Square? These things simply happen: they planned accurately that, found a weak point, blocked the street, made a surprise attack, killed the escort and kidnapped Moro. If you want to speak about the dark points of Moro deaths there are many (for example the Interior Ministry refused an armored car for Moro few days before, for example the police had a whistle about terrorist shelter but they didn't follow it) but about escort really I can't see anything of what are you saying.

PS when I asked you to limit yourself I intended to limit your comments on the topic, as speaking of Current Politics or about your personal opinion about Almirante are matter of Chat, not of the AH Forum. I never intended suggesting you were using violent words or something like that.


Lad, it is not a conspiracy anymore, and it is clear as day it is no longer a rallying cry after Palamara was found actually trying to sabotage someone's career because they didn't like him (I also detest him,but wouldn't abuse my power if I am I were in the same position) , but you are fine with that because it supports your worldview and because you judge as black (bad) and white (good) with a perspective based on today's worldview. Almirante and Craxi , together with Berlinguer and Moro, are perhaps the best politicians the Bel Paese ever had.

There are no good guys in history. Real or alternate.

The only laughable and criminal thing is your reductive, simplistic view of history hidden by a text wall and the fact that you consider random (and some most likely manipulated, to paraphrase W. Churchill) polls as an indication of opinion of sixty million individuals .

Cheers mate 🍺
 
Lad, it is not a conspiracy anymore, and it is clear as day it is no longer a rallying cry after Palamara was found actually trying to sabotage someone's career because they didn't like him (I also detest him,but wouldn't abuse my power if I am I were in the same position) , but you are fine with that because it supports your worldview and because you judge as black (bad) and white (good) with a perspective based on today's worldview. Almirante and Craxi , together with Berlinguer and Moro, are perhaps the best politicians the Bel Paese ever had.

There are no good guys in history. Real or alternate.

The only laughable and criminal thing is your reductive, simplistic view of history hidden by a text wall and the fact that you consider random (and some most likely manipulated, to paraphrase W. Churchill) polls as an indication of opinion of sixty million individuals .

Cheers mate 🍺
You know, at the beginning I was not sure but now I have to ask: are you kidding me?
I wrote a damned 125-lines post, aswering to every your objection, pointing to every flaws of your position and enumerating literally a bunch of reasons why you're wrong and all you are able to answer is starting to babble about "Your reductive, simplicist view...". Unbelievable.
Then you try to smears me saying I'm in favor of Palamara's corruption?!? You lose your dignity quickly, I see.
I never said I'm fine with Palamara Case: again, a profession is not a guarantee of being corrupted or being incorruptible, there are bad people and good people in every place. Clearly the judges are not superheroes and I hope this corruption case will be addressed with severity. But, again, the entire case is about Palamara bribing to get more high-ranking positions, as General Prosecutor of the Republic or President of Judges Union, not about ruining someone (who then? He was 23 during Craxi trial, he had to leave yet university, and he was never involved in Berlusconi trials) for political reasons.

Then you call me "criminal": you know, I was very educated and I payed great attention to avoid becoming vulgar or writing insults, but clearly you don't share the same opinion. Ok, now I will take off my gloves:
- Number One: you're not speaking about Emperor Caligula or Henry VIII, you're speaking about people who lived few decades ago: when Craxi died I was just pretty alive and breathing. So playing the card of "You cannot judge them with today's view" it's a double bullshit: first, they lived at less then one generation from now and second, what they did was WRONG even in their times! Commiting treason in favor of an invading power, defending bombers and conspiring with coup plotters was ILLEGAL in the Seventies as corruption was ILLEGAL in the Eighties, so your argument doesn't work: they knew what they did was wrong (and both of them boasted themselves about their fascist and corrupted activities!) and nevertheless they did it. There is a reason why Almirante never got more of 9% and Craxi had to escape in a foreign country: Nazi-friends and corrupted were never pretty popular.
And it's not a "black and white" playbook: the successor of Almirante, Granfranco Fini, who leads the MSI after 1988 and transformed it in the more successful National Alliance, was a good politician, although rightwing, as he repudiated the party's Fascist past, commemorated the Holocaust, admitted the Nazifascists crimes and fully accepted the Republican principles and I respected him highly for that.
- Number Two: if you believe there are not distinction between good people and bad people maybe you lives in an other history. Surely existed complex historical figures who had to be judged for their times and for the entirety of their actions, good and bad ones, as is for Churchill or Lyndon Johnson for example. Then there are good people with no doubts: Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King are clearly in this category. And then there are evil people: Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Leopold II of Belgium an many others. Saying "enough, no more good guys and bad guys" usually is a way trying to rehabilitate the bad ones (and that seems the case, as associating Almirante and Craxi to some giants as Moro and Berlinguer have the only effect to trying to elevate the formers to the latter's status, a rightwing trick). If your point is that Almirante and Craxi are not monsters, yep, clearly it's so and I'm not pretending that, but your point is that they are "great leaders". Here I strongly disagree and I pointed why, but you didn't answer and started to insult me. So I want to give you a second chance: please, explain this stupid boy what such wonderful reform/law/war victory/incredible event they made to be considered "great leaders"? I'm waiting.
- Number Three: if you thinks judges are more hated then politicians in Italy clearly you don't live in Italy and if you think that your word counts more then thousands of polls since Bribestown clearly you are a megalomaniac. At the opposite a large part of public opinion supported a more active judicial system and hoped the judges can arrest and purged the political class from corruption ("Giustizialismo" or "Judicial Vigilantism"): the last election winner, the populist Five Stars Movement, won greatly running on this platform. But again you prefer to escape in you little conspiracy world: they were not guilty, it was a judges conspiracy; the polls are not right because I said so, they were manipulated (by who? Now the judges control also newspapers and digital media? The same polls usually didn't show the judges as the most popular institutions, but in the well-perceived top-tier, while politicians and political parties are almost always not-trusted).
- Number Four: I can't decide if you are simply ignorant or you're lying, but because you insult me I will choose the latter. You avoid to answer my points and objections, you call every prove opposite to your point of view as part of same dark plot against your Fascist and corrupted heroes (and I'm the one with a partisan and reductive worldview!), you started to insult calling me a criminal and trying to assert a your alleged "intellectual superiority" when it's clear you didn't know about what you're speaking, both Almirante and Craxi personal and political history and Moro's death (you have not even read about the kidnapping before opening your mouth!), you continue to ignore historical facts (Almirante was a proud Fascist before the War, during the War and after the War, he never disown this, he said that even in your nosense video! Craxi was a corrupted, he admitted this during his trial, defending himself saying all others politicians did that, he was convicted by his own admission and escaped. Case closed) and use insults to try to cover your ignorance. And you know why? Your heroes has more dignity because at least Craxi and Almirante admitted openly their crimes, where you prefer to hid yourself behind a wall of insults and arrogance (usually a sign of weak arguments, I think).
I hate repeat myself but I will do again (and it's three): your revisionist views and your current politics points are out of place here, go in Chat or shut up, these are the Forum rules. Period.
 
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