Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by weaverj, Mar 11, 2019.
Could Quentin Roosevelt be a candidate for the United States Paternalist or Centrist?
Link to previous post: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...discussion-thread.463716/page-3#post-18952724
Communism (Parti communiste français/PCF): Maurice Thorez
Socialism (Parti socialiste de France/PSdF): Marcel Déat
Social Democracy (Internationale_ouvrièreection française de l’Internationale ouvrière/SFIO): Leon Blum
Social Liberalism (Parti radical/PR): Édouard Daladier
Centrism (Fédération républicaine/FR): Louis Marin
Social Conservatism (Alliance démocratique/AD): Pierre-Étienne Flandin
Paternalism (Croix-de-Feu): François de La Rocque
Despotism (Gouvernement provisoire): Phillipe Petain
Paternal Autocracy (Maison d’Orléans): Charles XI
Actionism (Action française): Charles XI/Philippe Henriot*
Communism (Kommunistische Partei Österreichs/KPO): Johann Koplenig
Socialism (Kommunistische Partei Österreichs/KPO): Otto Bauer
Social Democracy (Sozialdemokratische Partei Österreichs/SDPO): Karl I/Karl Renner
Social Liberalism (Landbund/LB): Karl I/Franz Winkler
Centrism (Parteiloser): Karl I/Johannes Schober
Social Conservatism (Christlichsoziale Partei/CSP): Karl I/Julius Raab*
Paternalism (Christlichsoziale Partei-Rechte/CSP-R): Karl I/Wilhelm Miklas
Despotism (Militärregierung): Karl I/Franz Böhme
Paternal Autocracy (Haus Habsburg-Habsburg-család): Karl I
Actionism (Vaterländische Partei/VP): Karl I/Englebert Dolfuss and later Konrad Henlein
Communism (Kommunisticheskaya partiya Sovetskogo Soyuza/KPSS): Kliment Voroshilov or Nikolai Bukharin
Socialism (Sotsialisticheskaya revolyutsionnaya partiya/SRP): Viktor Chernov
Social Democracy (Sotsialisticheskaya revolyutsionnaya partiya-Trudovaya gruppa/SRP-TG): Micheal II and/or Aleksander Kerensky
Social Liberalism (Konstitutsionno-Demokraticheskaya Partiya/K-D): Michael II and/or Pavel Mulikov
Centrism (Konstitutsionno-Demokraticheskaya Partiya/K-D): Michael II and/or Georgy Lvov
Social Conservatism (Soyuz 17 Oktyabrya/S17O): Michael II and/or Alexander Guchkov
Paternalism (Beloye dvizheniye): Michael II and/or Anton Denikin
Despotism (vremennoye voyennoye pravitel'stvo): Michael II and/or Pyotr Wrangel
Paternal Autocracy (vremennoye voyennoye pravitel'stvo): Michael II and/or Lavr KornilovActionism (Otechestvennaya vecherinka/OV): Michael II/Alexander Kolchak*
Communism (Partido Comunista de España/PCE): Jose Ramos Diaz
Socialism (Partido Obrero de Unificación Marxista/POUM): Joaquín Maurín Juliá
Social Democracy (Partido Socialista Obrero Español/PSOE): Alfonso XIII/Francisco Largo Caballero
Social Liberalism (Partido Radical/PR): Alfonso XIII/Alejandro Lerroux
Centrism (Partido Derecha Liberal/PDL): Alfonso XIII/Niceto Alcalá-Zamora
Social Conservatism (Confederación Española de Derechas Autónomas/CEDA): Alfonso XIII/José María Gil-Robles y Quiñones*
Paternalism (Renovación Española/RE): Alfonso XIII/José Calvo Sotelo
Despotism (Consejo de Ministros): Alfonso XIII/Jose Sanjuro
Paternal Autocracy (Bando nacional): Francisco Franco Bahamonde and later Emilio Mola y Vidal
Actionism (Falange Española de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista/FE de las JONS): José Antonio Primo de Rivera
I still think that having "paternalism" and "paternal autocracy" separate is unnecessary and not very clear.
Anyway, possible storylines I'd recommend...
The USA is a bitterly divided nation, united only by national hatred for the CSA. The Union is aggressively socially progressive, with even their Actionist tree having a "criminalize racist thought" focus, but a substantial pro-business bloc seeks to maintain the peace with the CSA to "encourage peaceful and gradual reform". The socialists, led by FDR, say that the ruling party is ineffective at dealing with the world economic crisis and insufficiently wary of Confederate buildups. The Actionists, led by William Dudley Pelley's Redeemers, view the Confederates as barely human savages from a bygone era who need a good whipping to abandon their cartoonishly evil ways (Even though Pelley's clearly bonkers, his popularity is on the rise, especially thanks to Featherston's government being, um, basically Nazis with a Southern accent). The 1936 Presidential election forms the centerpiece of the early-game storyline, with the government having options to pass legislation either focusing on reducing troop commitments in keeping down token remaining Canadian resistance (Canada, due to its small population and vast area, doesn't really form a severe revolt risk at this point), or trying to solve the economic crisis. FDR gives huge economic bonuses but will leave the US military somewhat behind compared to Pelley, who focuses on a quick military buildup but gives fewer civilian factory bonuses and such. (there is no third option, due to the current outgoing POTUS being less popular than Congress, cockroaches, lice, and Genghis Khan) When the Second Great War begins, the USA must focus on defending its massive border against a last-gasp attack by Jake Featherston's Confederacy. If victorious in the war (not like that's really a question, given the situation), the USA must choose a Reconstruction path. FDR focuses on economic rebuilding, propaganda revealing Featherston's atrocities, and lengthy public trials of Featherston-regime officials, whereas Pelley engages in full-on military occupation, cash incentives for interracial children, black social dominance enforced by Union bayonets, and attempting to breed a master species to please alien Jesus and the reptoids who brought him to us in their flying saucers.
Ukraine is a nation in chaos. Economic troubles in Germany have resulted in German funding and garrisons going home, leaving Ukraine bitterly divided between a Ukrainian-speaking nationalist west, a Cossack and Russian minority population in the East that are causing issues, and a substantial socialist underground loyal to banned politician Nestor Makhno of the Anarchist People's Party, who is also the leader of its armed wing, the Revolutionary Anarchist Insurrectionary Army. Shortly after the start of the game, the assassination of the Ukrainian Rada's chief officer causes a political crisis, with the next leader being decided in a series of event chains (the only focuses that can be taken during this time are miserly naval and air foci). The next leader stabilizes the country--either by recommitting to the German alliance and hoping that sucking up and pissing off the anarchists and minorities in the short term will pay off long term, or by electing Makhno and turning Ukraine into an anarchist confederation. German puppetry/allegiance gives military bonuses to army organization and enhances some generals with buffs; Makhno gives the nation huge manpower buffs and a defense bonus on core territory at the expense of unit org, some of which can be gained back later on as Ukrainians realize that elected officers, while great in theory, can be impractical.
The German Empire is a nation choking on everything its nationalist right ever could have wanted. With the economy in the toilet, its colonial empire on the verge of revolt (though to be fair the British and French aren't doing any better, with British Republican sentiment at an all-time high thanks to His Fecklessness, Edward VIII, and the Actionist French regime is still putting down riots in some areas), and its enemies seemingly strong as ever on all sides, Prime Minister von Schleicher's popularity is in negative numbers, and the only question is who will replace him, and whether or not the Spartakist radicals will actually rise up in response. The SDAP plan calls for a civilian industrial support system to get the economy back on track, the Conservative party under von Papen is calling for tax cuts, war hero von Lettow-Vorbeck is a dark horse candidate who wants military preparedness and funding the war industry to counter France and at least get some jobs for people, and Actionist nutcase Heinrich Himmler has thrown his hat into the ring by blaming The Jews (tm) for everything, while the Communists are calling for a revolution and redistributing the wealth of the rich. (obviously, if you take some obvious chump choices you can cause a civil war and basically doom Germany and the war in Europe) Military trees focus on battleships or carriers, heavy or light fighters, and on tanks or doubling down on Great War tactics.
Got some other ideas about the UK falling into a British Republican revolt, but will post those in the morning. Obviously, still playing fast and loose with TL-191 canon, largely because the later books are, um, a bit painful to read.
Perhaps "Paternal Autocracy" could be just "Autocracy"?
What exactly distinguishes the two? That's my concern.
Paternalism can refer to countries that claim to be democratic but have a large disenfranchised population, such as the CSA and Apartheid South Africa, certain further-right political parties and certain socially stratified Latin American regimes.
Autocracy can refer to far-right nationalist regimes in Europe, regimes like OTL's Franco regime in Spain and Metaxas regime in Greece, certain heavily authoritarian dictatorships and military juntas and also traditionalist and oligarchic absolute monarchies in the Middle East, such as Pahlavi Iran, Oman and OTL's Saudi Arabia, and Asia, such as Tibet and Bhutan.
Those are basically the same thing, the former closer to what KR calls authoritarian democrats.
Ideologies should be a little more distinct than that IMO. Each one having a theme. Communism is authoritarian, revolutionary, and anti-tradition; socialism is egalitarian, revolutionary, and anti-tradition; liberalism is reformatory, establishment, and progressive; conservatism is establishment and pro-tradition; paternalism is authoritarian, reactionary, and legitimist or traditionalist; despotism is authoritarian, reactionary, and pro-establishment; Actionism is authoritarian, revolutionary (of sorts), and pro-tradition. Generally speaking. Having two systems that are needlessly similar in concept just overcomplicates development.
Here's some ideas for Reconstruction focus trees for the US after it (inevitably, due to historical factors, unless the player really screws up) crushes the Confederacy like a grape:
Guard the polls
Hunt down the diehards (requires Guard the polls, FBI)
Yankee miracle for Dixie
Houses for the people
Industrial buildup (requires ban sharecropping, houses for the people)
Honest Abe hate crimes bill
Yankee teachers and Yankee textbooks
Propaganda offensive (requires Honest Abe hate crimes bill, Yankee teachers and Yankee textbooks)
End martial law (requires Hunt down the diehards, Industrial buildup, Propaganda offensive)
Bring in Yankees
Capitalize on Negro labor
Parks and roads plan
Mandatory public schooling
All Still Americans
Build civilian police
Bring in trusted Yankees
Train black locals
Limited Dixie recruitment
The Union, restored! (requires all previous foci)
Mine Eyes have Seen the Glory
His Truth Goes Marching On
Ban racist thought
Military Surveillance Initiative
Third Amendment Exception (requires Ban racist thought, Military Surveillance Initiative)
Glory, Glory, Hallelujah!
Jobs for our Negro brothers!
Jobs for our Yankee settlers!
Christian factory initiative (requires Jobs for our Negro brothers!, Jobs for our Yankee settlers!)
Jesus Christ's Ordained Race
Racial Hybridization Propaganda
Subsidies for interracial couples
A new race for a new age! (requires Racial Hybridization Propaganda, Subsidies for interracial couples)
Intensify martial law (requires all previous foci)
Grand Army of the Republic
Intensify Yankee recruitment
Expanded Negro recruitment
Indians for the Coming Race!
Pure in thought and deed!
Boarding schools for Dixies
New American Christianity
Increase Mandatory Hybridization Quotas
Titans of Industry
Guns for the Grand Army
American Girls Work, Too!
National Unification Highway and Train Program
Ready for Jesus (and his flying saucers)! (requires all previous foci)
These should be pretty obvious in what they do, obviously the Pelley version is...a bit suboptimal.
Pelley's version also involves forcing children into boarding schools intended to erase their cultural background and brainwash them, plus possible reproductive coercion, as well as a batshit crazy race cult. So...obviously Roosevelt is the good guy here. But I think clear cut good and evil is OK in this situation.
Both FDR and Pelley are in favor of getting women in the factories, though Pelley rams through lengthy paid maternity leave, too, because he wants women to have lots of Superior Hybrid Man babies to please the alien lizard Jesus he worships. They would both have political trees; FDR is all about grassroots democracy and making sure that every voice is heard, and balancing the inherent difficulty of that when you're also trying to reintegrate half your country that seceded in a racist tantrum and is still incredibly racist 80 years later, while Pelley is about making sure that Pelley can do whatever damn fool thing Pelley pleases in the pursuit of serving reptoid Jesus and the flying saucers.
I'd probably have three main strategy options army-wise; artillery focus, doubling down on massed infantry, or tanks and blitzkrireg. Blitzkrieg would probably be the default given that TTL's America learned mostly from the Prussian general staff's tactics. The Confederacy meanwhile would start with an insurmountable industrial and technological backlog (still using cavalry while the Union already has a bunch of tank and motorized divisions), and would have the choice between the chump choice of Featherston's tank blitz plan and a more sane plan from Huey Long to go with guerilla militias to support the army.
I would also include brief focus trees for possible future Presidents; like, for the 1944 election, I'd provide brief options for candidates, including a black guy if the Union has finished off the Confederacy by then, maybe a total of 3-6 foci each.
@Worffan101 - TTL’s Pelley is...interesting...
I figured that a Pelley who grew up in an aggressively anti-racist state surrounded by propaganda about the demonic, cartoonishly-evil Southerners and their unceasing desire to annihilate Yankeedom and break the world to the foul yoke of Treasonous Slavocracy (tm), would be crazy in a different way from our version, lol.
Turtledove allegedly initially planned to make the Union the bad guys, but switched it because it was a WW2 story and I guess his editors thought general audiences wouldn't get the context or something like that. That's why *Rommel fights for the USA, why Gordon McSweeny is set up and goes nowhere, and why Featherston comes out of nowhere and is such a bland and obvious Hitler expy.
So, here is TTL's American Hitler. He's a batshit insane totalitarian with equally crazy racial theories, but he's fighting for an ostensibly good cause (the end of the Southern system of cartoonishly evil racism), he has some views that are just WEIRD by our standards, and of course he believes in reptile alien Jesus.
He's not just Hitler with a different accent, he's a somewhat different kind of insane and evil. For one thing, he might have a hard time stooping to genocide until after the first big Southern white guerilla uprising against his rule (permanent martial law only goes so far, after all).
Anyway, yeah--I'd have the USA be a fairly simple binary choice, maybe a chump-choice third option but I'm not really sold on that, then Germany has three main choices plus two extra options that unlock through specific gameplay criteria and can cause civil war leading to radical ideological realignment, that sorta thing. France is probably locked into French Nazis, at least to start, as the leader of the Entente fascist block; UK is probably under right-wing authoritarians of some sort but with a huge vaguely leftist movement that the regime can't stomp out, Russia is even more broken and screwed up than in Kaiserreich so not even a Savinkov type can save it, Austria-Hungary is busy with internal matters, China hasn't has as bad a collapse as OTL and Japan's military buildup went even faster due to competition with America and conquest of the Spanish Philippines, so we've basically got a three-way Asian fight between Showa's Empire, the remnant of the Qing, a southern-based rebel republic, and lots of warlords as wild cards. India can be either a patchwork mess post-British WK1 loss, or a this close to breaking off colony still, either way works well enough.
Truth be told, the interactions of American minors would also be super interesting to me.
@Worffan101 - I remember that. Hence odd relics in the first book like Jefferson Pinkard and Jake Featherston showing more sympathy to black workers and the like - odds are they were intended to be the lens by which we saw a victorious Confederacy become better...urkkkk...
Your read on how Pelley would have changed makes sense when you put it like that - nice one! And that’s a good read on tbe situation...
I'd say Quentin Roosevelt would be a mix of his father Theodore Roosevelt with some elements of FDR and with some possible light authoritarianism. Perhaps acting as a foil to both FDR and Pelley.
Increased military spending, infrastructure projects, compromises between various different political groups and alliances with certain business interests.
Continuing this idea...
The United Kingdom is a bitter, unstable state clinging to a decaying Empire. The loss of Canada has strained Anglo-American relations more than ever before, but British class tensions aren't far behind; the lower classes hate the Confederacy and Confederate-British alliance, while the establishment views the Confederacy as a vital bulwark against further American aggression. The Edward Marriage Affair brings matters to a head, as the heir to the British throne (soon to be Edward VIII) is dead-set on a politically unsuitable bride. In a reversal of OTL, Edward is a devoted Marxist, having been radicalized after being captured by the Americans while serving in Canada during the Great War, and seeks to marry Jessica Mitford, a woman more than a decade his junior who openly participates in street protests for radical communist movements. The British political establishment is Not Amused, and is even less amused by Edward's own active political activism and brazen comments about abolishing the monarchy entirely, and a cabal of right-wing politicians led by Winston Churchill and Edward's brother-in-law Oswald Mosley seek to put Edward's brother on the throne as a puppet George VI. Should they succeed in forcing Edward to abdicate, the British lower class will not be happy, and George VI will prove to have opinions of his own. If the palace coup is successful but George proves politically unreliable for the cabal, Churchill will attempt to put George and Edward's alcoholic brother Henry on the throne as a politically reliable sockpuppet.
Should Edward outmaneuver the plotters, his activism will lead to a devastating radical-Labour victory in the elections, at which point the cabal will attempt a full military coup. If they succeed, Mosley will take over Britain while keeping the King under de facto house arrest. If the coup fails, Edward can abolish the monarchy and declare himself "Citizen Windsor", leaving the nation to a socialist-dominated parliament.
Whatever happens, Britain will be unable to help its colonies such as the British Raj as Lakshmi Sahgal and Jawaharlal Nehru launch the Great Indian Revolt, at first a peaceful protest movement but later a guerilla rebellion against the Raj. Opposing the People's Republic of Free India is the ambitious Nizam of Hyderabad, Osman Ali Khan (who fears the Hindu-nationalist strains of the Revolt), and the Confederation of Princely States, a bundle of conservative puppet monarchs in the northwest wary of the republican nature of the revolt. A nationalist Britain can in late-game assist one of these factions or the remnant British Raj based out of Sri Lanka and Tranvacore (if it survives that long), while a socialist Britain can ironically lend aid to the People's Republic.
Obviously, the British succession crisis will lead to economic and political upheaval, and will effectively force Britain to focus on the upcoming rematch with Germany rather than holding down a sprawling empire.
Oswald Mosley (Actionist)
Winston Churchill (Paternalist)
Neville Chamberlain (Conservative)<--can avert political crisis, but this means Britain risks getting bogged down in India while Germany is stealing France's lunch money, and Edward will constantly be shooting off at the mouth and causing debuffs.
British Republic (Edward becomes King, abolishes monarchy):
Neville Chamberlain (Conservative)
John Simon (Liberal)
Clement Atlee (Socialist)
Socialist Workers' Republic of Britain (Edward abolishes monarchy and hardline socialists win the ensuing debate):
Clement Atlee (Socialist) can elect Simon after Atlee, Chamberlain refuses to take part in the government of the SWRB, though.
Annie Kenney (Socialist) pacifist, unlocks neutral foreign policy and rapprochement with Ireland tree, makes it easier to settle the Ulster dispute
James Maxton (Equalist) think Lenin lite
Jessica Mitford (Equalist) think Stalin with tits
I'd make Edward be king of Moncom gang, or at least have that option, for further memes. Frankly I think that if Edward wanted to abolish the monarchy altogether George V would have just disinherited him.
I also have an idea for Actionist France being super antiziganist and justifying their genocide of Romani people with "well if you throw the rats out they'll just migrate back in, we need to get them out of the fatherland somehow!". I think having Jews be the targets of any of the various evil regimes would be boring and not particularly interesting to play with.
honestly, given that George V is probably in poor health, and that Britain is already undergoing a metastasizing sociopolitical crisis as a result of them losing *WW1 in humiliating fashion and the CSA being basically cartoon villains that for some reason the Brits keep backing even though every single time it gets worse and worse for Britain, there's a case to be made that George wouldn't dare.
I'm not really sure what "moncom gang" is and I want to minimize memes because memes suck, but having Edward be kind of a reverse of his OTL self would amuse me greatly.
Monarchist Communist, I guess. Not really a thing in OTL unless you count that brief blip in the late 40s/very early 50s in Romania which was more of a 'the Communists haven't bothered to depose the king yet' thing.
Monarcho-Communism, sort of the Mladorossi movement in Russia. It's not completely unprecedented.
...that's something, alright.
Honestly I think that having him be a republican would be funnier.
There was also that one Carlist claimant that went Titoist and is the reason why the modern Carlist Party is a self-defined socialist party in favour of worker's self-management.
Separate names with a comma.