TL 191 HOI4 Mod Update and Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by weaverj, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. PopulistBean Rockefeller Republican

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    Mar 3, 2019
    Bump


    Can we see what a Confederate Civil War would look like?
     
  2. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Question: You guys taking any suggestions for names of guns and tanks in the mod? For when you want to create the composition of your divisions?
     
  3. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2015
    Well I'm not a good enough artist to work up actual pictures, but would be happy to discuss the topic - may I please ask what you would specifically like to know?:)
     
  4. PopulistBean Rockefeller Republican

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    Like first of all, how would it start? Would Featherston get assassinated, or does Huey Long survive?
     
  5. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oof. Well if you assassinate Featherston a lot of shit will hit the fan I think. Like, by 1936, I'm pretty sure that would really throw the South into tizzy. Could be fun for sure.
     
  6. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2015
    There are a number of possible points of divergence - as noted above Featherston's near assassination in 1936 might very well have triggered a Power Struggle between Willy Knight and the Freedom Party (who would definitely like to hold onto power but might be reluctant to take orders from somebody who started with another Party) which might see President Knight reach out to Huey Long as an alternative source of support (we know the Stalwarts were very busy persecuting the Radical Liberals, but I'm not sure it's ever confirmed that the Redemption League were quite so active*).

    Such a struggle would be even more likely after a successful execution of the Knight Coup - it seems unlikely that Ferd Koenig would fail to keep digging until he hit pay dirt and that would mean War (Koenig hero worships the Snake and it seems unlikely the Freedom Party as a whole would tamely swallow the assassination of its Supreme Demagogue); it seems at least possible that Knight would reach out to opponents of the Stalwarts in order to strengthen his own base of support.

    *Given their base of support in the Spanish Confederacy, it seems unlikely that the Rad Libs had enough of a presence in Texas for the Redemption League to pay them much mind; it seems highly likely their primary AND secondary target would be the Whigs.


    I doubt that Huey Long would be able to seriously challenge Featherston for control of the Confederacy in 1936, even assuming that he survived that assassination - so far as we can tell Louisiana was a very lonely redoubt amidst a smother of Stalwarts - BUT he could certainly Declare Independence and reach out to the wider world (which be much easier if his would-be assassin were traced to The Snake, providing a "Smoking Gun" that would allow him to drag Featherston's tyranny out into the open in the eyes of the World**).

    ** Showing that JAKE FEATHERSTON used a negro assassin against the Governor of a Confederate State might even damage his standing in the eyes of his own Party with the sheer hypocrisy on display, but it would CERTAINLY shock less Stalwart southerners (especially if opponents of Featherston were to drag the Hampton Assassination out of mothballs and beat The Snake with that particular stick AGAIN "Hey, I know our Investigation found this sucker innocent of that assassination, but lookee here this time there's smoke AND a firearm with his fingerprints on it - maybe we just missed out on a few lucky breaks last time!").


    However, as mentioned on the other end of that thread I linked to a few posts ago, my personal favourite PoD is the occasion on which a Freedom Party bully (Jeff Pinkard, I think, though it might have been Roger Kimball) prevented one of his fellow goons from murdering a rival parties candidate during an Election Year - I think this would make an excellent Point of Divergence, with the Freedom Party's standing as a Legitimate Opposition party taking a serious tumble after yet ANOTHER opposition politician winds up dead on the wrong end of a Freedom Party assault, making the Stalwarts look like outright terrorists and handing a serious boost to their opponent's campaign.

    I'm personally attached to the idea of a "CONFEDERATE CIVIL WAR IN '34" (with Featherston proving a much less graceful loser than Samuel J. Tilden did after the Compromise of 1877 in Our Timeline, following a similarly dodgy bit of deadlock breaking); admittedly this is because there's a much stronger chance of the Freedom Party coming off worst in this particular scenario, which I'm sure we'd all like to see!:cool:
     
  7. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Nov 7, 2012
    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Greece

    Communism: Nikos Zachariadis
    Syndicalism: Dimitrios Partsalidis
    Socialism: Alexandros Svolos
    Social Democracy: George II/Georgios Papandreou
    Liberalism: George II/Sophoklis Venizelos
    Centrism: George II/Themistoklis Sofoulis
    Conservatism: George II/Panagis Tsaldaris*
    Paternalism: George II/Georgios Kondylis
    Despotism: George II/Georgios Tsolakoglou
    Actionism: George II/Ioannis Metaxas

    Romania

    Communism: Constantin Ion Parhon
    Syndicalism: Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej
    Socialism: Petru Groza
    Social Democracy: Carol II and later Micheal I/Armand Călinescu
    Liberalism: Carol II and later Micheal I/Nicolae L. Lupu
    Centrism: Carol II and later Micheal I/Miron Cristea
    Conservatism: Carol II and later Micheal I/Gheorghe Tătărescu*
    Paternalism: Carol II/Octavian Goga
    Despotism: Carol II/Ion Antonescu
    Actionism: Carol II/Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

    Bulgaria

    Communism: Georgi Dimitrov
    Syndicalism: Khristo Kabakchiev
    Socialism: Konstantin Bozveliev
    Social Democracy: Ferdinand I and Boris III (if Ferdinand I abdicates)/
    Liberalism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Stoyan Danev
    Centrism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Konstantin Muraviev
    Conservatism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Nikola Mushanov*
    Paternalism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Kimon Georgiev
    Despotism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Pencho Zlatev
    Actionism: Ferdinand I and Boris III/Hristo Lukov

    Albania

    Communism: Ali Kelmendi
    Syndicalism: Myslim Peza
    Socialism: Llazar Fundo
    Social Democracy: Avni Rustemi
    Liberalism: Fan Noli
    Centrism: Mehdi Frashëri*
    Conservatism: Ahmet Zogu
    Paternalism: Shefqet Vërlaci
    Despotism: Zog I (as Monarch)
    Actionism: Tefik Mborja
     
  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    What does the division creation look like in this mod? You guys need any name suggestions or place holders for pictures of guns? Anything like that?
     
  9. New Cleo Genesis Ṣrtô nag lavēskiy drûotnec?

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    May I suggest Robert Minor for one spot or another?
     
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  10. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Here’s Poland and the British Dominions.

    Poland

    Communism: Bolesław Bierut
    Syndicalism: Władysław Gomułka
    Socialism: Kazimierz Pużak
    Social Democracy: Karl Olbracht I/Ignacy Daszyński
    Liberalism: Karl Olbracht I/Wincenty Witos
    Centrism: Karl Olbracht I/Ignacy Mościcki
    Conservatism: Karl Olbracht I/Stanisław Wojciechowski*
    Paternalism: Karl Olbracht I and/or Roman Dmowski
    Despotism: Karl Olbracht I/Władysław Sikorski
    Actionism: Bolesław Piasecki

    Australia

    Communism: Jock Garden
    Syndicalism: Richard Dixon
    Socialism: Lance Sharkey
    Social Democracy: James Scullin* and later John Curtin
    Liberalism: Joseph Cook
    Centrism: Earle Page and later Arthur Fadden
    Conservatism: Robert Menzies
    Paternalism: Percy Stephenson
    Despotism: Alexander Hore-Ruthven, 1st Earl of Gowrie
    Actionism: Eric Campbell

    New Zealand

    Communism: Fintan Patrick Walsh
    Syndicalism: Jock Barnes
    Socialism: Elsie Farrelly
    Social Democracy: Micheal Joseph Savage* and later Peter Fraser
    Liberalism: Thomas Wilford
    Centrism: Harold Rushworth
    Conservatism: Sidney Holland
    Paternalism: John Ormond
    Despotism: George Monckton-Arundell, 8th Viscount Galway
    Actionism: Robert C. Begg

    South Africa

    Communism: Moses Ktambe
    Syndicalism: Mary Fitzgerald
    Socialism: William H. Andrews
    Social Democracy: Walter Madeley
    Liberalism: Alfred Bitini Xuma
    Centrism: Charles Stallard
    Conservatism: J.M.B Herzog* and later Jan Smuts
    Paternalism: D.F. Malan
    Despotism: George Villiers, 6th Earl of Clarendon
    Actionism: Johannes Van Rensburg
     
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  11. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    After giving things some more thought, I decided to add two more ideologies to my list of potential ideologies for this mod. I may go back and add these to my lists of potential leaders. I may also write more about these ideologies. Anyways, feel free to use these for this mod.

    Edit: As of 5/20/2019, these are new ideologies.

    Ideologies

    Communism
    Socialism
    Social Democracy
    Liberalism
    Centrism
    Conservatism
    Paternalism
    Despotism
    Paternal Autocracy
    Actionism

    Here is a somewhat more detailed break up of these ideologies.

    Ideologies

    Far-Leftist Ideologies


    Communism
    Socialism

    Democratic Ideologies

    Social Democracy
    Liberalism
    Centrism
    Social Conservatism

    Authoritarian Ideologies

    Paternalism
    Despotism

    Far-Rightist Ideologies

    Paternal Autocracy
    Actionism
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  12. wolfhound817 Priest of Hank

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    Upstate New York
    In the books they were a small party and could be an interesting middle path between the Socialists and the Dems. They could be socially progressive, economic centrist or libertarian, and hawkish towards the south
     
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  13. Gukpard hominem populist

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    Location:
    São Paulo, Brazil.
    I would suggest:

    Communism: Luis Carlos Prestes
    Syndicalism: Edgard Leuenroth
    Socialism: Caio Prado Jr. (leader of the big tent party ANL during the constitucional era 34-37)
    Social Democracy: Dom Pedro III/João Mangabeira or Getúlio Vargas
    Liberalism: Dom Pedro III/Julio Prestes
    Centrism: Dom Pedro III/Cândido Rondon
    Conservatism: Dom Pedro III/António Carlos de Andrada (appointed to be elected in 1930, but the oligarchs dropped him for Júlio Prestes, this was one of the dominoes of the 1930 revolution)
    Paternalism: Dom Pedro III/Getúlio Vargas or Plínio Salgado (Salgado was a reactionary, not a fascist)
    Despotism: Dom Pedro III/Pedro Aurélio de Góis Monteiro or Getúlio Vargas
    Actionism: Dom Pedro III/Filinto Muller (Chief of Vargas secret police), Gaspar Dutra (leader of the pro axis military clique) or Francisco Campos (leader of the pro axis government faction, he even copied Hitler hairstyle and led a openly fascist party with brownshirts known as the "Legião Mineira" in the 1930s)
     
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  14. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    This a detailed description of my proposed ideologies for this Timeline- 191 mod. Sometime soon, I hope to edit my past posts of national leaders to be in accordance with these ideologies. The ideological sub-types appear in coding and in political descriptions. I don't see most of these sub-types having leaders, I just decided to add them for flavor and to describe them for the purposes of lore and immersion. Credit goes to Worfann101 and his post in this thread linked below, which served as the inspiration for parts of this post. Lastly, feel free to use these ideologies for this mod.

    Anyways, enjoy!

    Ideologies

    Far-Leftist Ideologies

    Marxist-Leninist Communism:
    A hard-line subset of Communism, an authoritarian far-left ideology which seeks to establish a classless and socially equal communist society as was described by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto, doing so through authoritarian means and suppression of "counter-revolutionaries" and "enemies of the people", and combined with the theories of Vladimir Lenin, the ill-fated leader of Soviet Russia, theories which, among other things, advocate for the establishment of a vanguard party to guide the proletarian revolution and to guide the people of a nation. The only nation in history to be under this ideology was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which was defeated by the Russian Empire during the Russian Civil War. However, many Red Russian Exiles, living in mostly in Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, the United States and Latin America, have stayed true to the ideals of Lenin and continue to advocate for and expand upon his original ideas. One of the offshoots of Marxist-Leninism is Equalism or Equalist Communism as theorized by Russian exiles Lazar Kaganovich and Nikolai Yezhov, both living in Switzerland, which states that any reactionary states are inherently corrupt and must be destroyed and purged into the ground by any means necessary. One other offshoot is National Bolshevism, developed in Germany by both German and exiled-Russian communists, which is a combination of both radical nationalism and Marxist-Leninist Bolshevism.

    Sub-types:
    • Leninism
    • Equalism
    • National Bolshevism
    Marxist Communism: An orthodox subset of Communism, an authoritarian far-left ideology which seeks to establish a classless and socially equal communist society as was described by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto, doing so through authoritarian means and suppression of "counter-revolutionaries" and "enemies of the people", and Marxist Communism seeks to stay as true as possible to the original writings of Karl Marx. There are numerous different variations of Marxist Communism, but almost all are against the concept of a Vanguard Party as described by Vladimir Lenin, in spite of all still being authoritarian ideologies. The only nation in history to be under this ideology was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, as led by Lev Kamenv after the assassination of Lenin in 1918, which was then defeated by the Russian Empire during the Russian Civil War. However, many Red Russian Exiles, living in mostly in Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, the United States and Latin America, have stayed true to the ideals of Communism, Marxism and Bolshevism. One of the most prominent old Bolsheviks and orthodox Marxists is Kliment Voroshilov, who lives in exile in Sweden. Another is Nikolai Bukharin, living in Switzerland, who advocates for workplace democracy and limited bureaucracy, among others, within an orthodox Marxist structure. Another kinds of Marxist Communism include the anti-Bolshevist Left Communism, the most prominent theorist being the Italian Marxist Amadeo Bordiga, Council Communism, the most prominent theorist being the Dutch Marxist Antonie Pannekoek, and Anarcho-Communism, which was practiced by the CNT-FIA in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War between the Kingdom of Spain and the Spanish Nationalists.

    Sub-types:
    • Marxism
    • Bukharinism
    • Left Communism
    • Council Communism
    • Anarcho-Communism
    Syndicalism: A Marxist and far-left ideology which is a radical variation of the labor movements within numerous nations, mostly in Europe and the Americas, and which seeks to establish a socialist society advanced through workers strikes and workers actions and centered around local organizations principally led by the workers of a nation, which includes the establishment of regional worker’s councils and trade unions and the establishment of workplace democracy within the workplace. The ideology is popular among numerous radical labor activists and trade unions in numerous nations, such as the General Confederation of Labor in France, the National Confederation of Labor in Spain, the Italian Syndicalist Union, the Free Workers' Union of Germany, the Argentine Regional Workers' Federation and factions within the Industrial Workers of the World in the United States. As a result of the failure of the Communist Revolution in Russia, some leftists in Europe, the Americas, Australasia and even Asia have turned away from Bolshevism and have since turned towards syndicalism as a new ideological and political means of achieving a socialist society. In spite of this, the movement has failed to gain a large amount of political traction in most nations.

    Sub-types:
    • Syndicalism
    • Anarcho-Syndicalism
    Socialism: A large group of far-left ideologies which all advocate for social ownership of the means of production, the self-management of workers within a nation and the disbanding of the capitalist economic system of a nation and the reestablishing of said economy into a socialist economy. Much like with Communism, a much more radical form of Socialism, there are many different variations of Socialism, some of which are more authoritarian, some others of which are more democratic, at least on paper.

    Sub-types:
    • Revolutionary Socialism
    • Democratic Socialism
    Democratic Ideologies

    Social Democracy:
    A democratic and left-wing ideology that supports numerous different kinds of economic and social interventions on the behalf of the government of nation in an effort to promote social justice and the social well-being of the people and citizenry within a capitalist mixed economy in a democratic nation. Unlike other socialists, social democrats do not seek to redistribute all wealth within a nation, to remove the social ownership of the means of production from private owners and into the ownership of a government or to abolish the capitalist economic system of a nation, but merely to redistribute some wealth through taxation and other programs, to nationalize some important industries and to have the capitalist economic system of a nation remain intact and to work the best that it can for the poorest and most socially disadvantaged within the society of the nation. Some prominent examples of Social Democrats include the Socialist Party in the United States of America, whose front-runner in the next national convention is former New York governor Al Smith, the Labour Party in the United Kingdom led by Clement Attlee, the SDP in Germany led by Chancellor Otto Wels, the Action Party in Italy led by Prime Minister Ferruccio Parri, the SAP in Sweden led by Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson, among others.

    Sub-types:
    • Social Democracy
    Social Liberalism: A democratic and left-wing ideology that is a variable of liberalism, a democratic ideology that is focused on liberty, equality before the law, individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, among other things. Social Liberalism itself advocates for a regulated free market economy and the expansion of civil and political rights and freedoms for the people and citizenry of a nation. As a result, social liberalism is an ideology that stays the course between socialist reforms and traditional conservative and capitalist doctrines. One prominent example of Social Liberals includes the Liberal and Progressive Wings of the Democratic Party in the United States of America, which first came to power with the presidency of Theodore Roosevelt.

    Sub-types:
    • Social Liberalism
    Market Liberalism: A democratic ideology that is a variable of liberalism which combines the values of a laissez-faire and free market economy with little intervention with the liberal values of personal liberty and human rights. The political parties that fall under the banner of Market Liberalism can be either the center-left or center-right of the political spectrum. Some factions of Market Liberalism exist within the Democratic and Republican parties of the United States of America, although they are much more prominent in the former party.

    Sub-types:
    • Market Liberalism
    Centrism: A catchall democratic ideology that encompasses a wide variety of numerous political parties and ideologies that combine different and non-contradictory elements of the left wing and right wing of the political spectrum, as well as political parties and ideologies that may be slightly more left-wing or right-wing, but that are still very close to the political center of the political spectrum.

    Sub-types:
    • Centrism
    Social Conservatism: A democratic ideology that is focused on emphasizing loyalty to the nation and the power of traditional authority and traditional values within a society, as well as the preservation and upholding of said authorities and values. These authorities include the institutions such as the government, the military, law enforcement, organized religion and sometimes a monarchy and royal dynasty, while these values include the the family, religiosity, traditional morality, among others. One prominent example of Social Conservatives includes the conservative wing of the Democratic Party in the United States of America, which was most prominent and ruled over the political scene of the United States of America during the Remembrance Era from 1882 to 1914.

    Sub-types:
    • Social Conservatism
    Authoritarian Democracy: A catchall term for a democratic government under a authoritarian, strongman leader, taking into account whether said leader came to power through a coup or through an election, or an authoritarian leader and legislature, where democratic elections still exist, if sometimes only on paper, and where the democratic structure of government has not been completely destroyed. This can also refer to a colony and colonial regime of an empire, depending on how authoritarian the regime it towards the native population. Examples of authoritarian democratic regimes include a number of both civilian and military regimes in Latin America. One prominent example of an authoritarian democracy is the coalition government of the Conservative Party of Sir Winston Churchill and the British National Party of Sir Oswald Mosely in the United Kingdom.

    Sub-types:
    • Authoritarian Democracy
    • Colonial Administration
    Far-Rightist Ideologies

    Paternalism: A farther ring-wing ideology which advocates for democracy, but which advocates only for democracy for the right sort of people. This ideology is a catchall ideological grouping for nations with a heavily stratified society, a disenfranchised underclass and a relatively liberal approach for the upper classes. This is the dominant ideology in the Confederate States of America. Paternalism is also the ideology of the National Party in South Africa, certain reactionary parties in Europe and certain parties in Latin America that favor the white-European criollo population over the mixed-race mestizo and/or indigenous populations of the nation.

    Sub-types:
    • Paternalism
    Despotism: A catchall ideological categorization of certain far-rightist regimes, dictators, military dictators, strongmen and other neutral and not particularly ideological despots and/or dictators, although most of these despots and/or dictators could be described as either authoritarian centrists on the further right of the political spectrum. This can also refer to a colony and colonial regime of an empire, depending on how authoritarian the regime it towards the native population.

    Sub-types:
    • Despotism
    • Military Junta
    • Authoritarian
    • Colonial Administration
    Paternal Autocracy: A catchall ideological categorization of different ideologies in which the established and entrenched leader and/or ruling class and/or ruling party of a nation is considered to be the supreme authority over said nation and the people of said nation. This includes a number of different far-rightist nationalist movements in Europe, certain authoritarian dictatorships, certain military juntas, absolute monarchies in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, among other such regimes.

    Sub-types:
    • Paternal Autocracy
    • Military Junta
    • Absolute Monarchy
    • Oligarchism
    • Theocracy
    Actionism: An authoritarian far-right ideology, named after the Action Française Party of France, the first of its kind to achieve political power in Europe, which is an ultra-nationalist, hyper-revanchist and militaristic ideology that is marked by a dictatorial and all-encompassing state power, an emphasis on service to the state and loyalty to the nation and/or the race and people of said nation (as defined by the government), partial or total state control of the economy and active opposition and suppression of political and oftentimes racial or religious enemies of the nation. According to many Actionist movements, by "purifying" the nation, it is believed that the nation can be made strong and able to challenge any threat to its existence and power and thus prevail over said threats. Prominent examples of Actionist movements include the Freedom Party of Jake Featherston in the Confederate States of America, Action Française of King Charles XI and Charles Maurras in the Kingdom of France, the British National Party of Sir Oswald Moseley in the United Kingdom, the Motherland Party of Tsar Michael II and Prime Minister Alexander Kolchak in the Russian Empire, the Falange Española of José Antonio Primo de Rivera in Spain and the ill-fated Partito Nazionale Fascista of Benito Mussolini in Italy. It should be noted that there are numerous different ideological varieties of Actionism. Some such as Freedomism are focused heavily as the concept of race and nationhood as one and the corporatisation of the state, economy and society, some such as the AF, MP and Falange parties are Clerico-Actionist, have the church and state inter-twinned and are hyper-traditionalist, some such as the Falange are both Clerico-Actionist, hyper-traditionalist and are focused on the the corporatisation of the state, economy and society, while others such as the BNP and PNF are focused less on race and religion and more on nationhood and imperialism and the corporatisation of the state, economy and society.

    Sub-types:
    • Actionism
    • Freedomism (for the CSA)
    • Clerico-Actionism
    • Falangism (for Spain and Latin America)
    • Fascism (for Italy)
    • Rexism (for Belgium)
    • Integralism (for Portugal and Brazil)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  15. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    Location:
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    I genuinely believe that the ideologies should be kept fairly simple.

    Here's a hypothetical set of leader options:
    ----
    United States of America

    Communist (CPUSA): n/a at game start, folded under socialists
    Socialist (Socialist Party of America): Franklin Delano Roosevelt
    Liberal (Republican Party): Alf Landon
    Conservative (Democratic Party): Herbert Hoover
    Paternalist (n/a): n/a at game start
    Despotism (military junta): Irving Morrell
    Actionist (American Redemption Party): William Dudley Pelley

    German Empire

    Communist (KPD): Rosa Luxembourg
    Socialist (SDAP): Ernst Thälmann
    Liberal (National Liberal Party): n/a at game start.
    Conservative (DKP): Franz von Papen
    Paternalist (German National People's Party): Kurt von Schleicher
    Despotism (military junta): August von Mackensen
    Actionist (German Fatherland Front): Heinrich Himmler
    -----
    and an analysis of each choice for the USA:

    FDR: Wants military buildup, increase government protections for workers and legal protections for labor collectives, anti-CSA policy.
    Alf Landon: Wants pro-business economic policy, favors appeasement and the avoidance of war.
    Hoover: Doesn't matter because he'll never win an election.
    Morrell: Not in power or an option unless you really screw up and has no domestic policies other than "make guns and bullets".
    Pelley: "Southrons are a corrupt and degenerate breed of Norman brutes incapable of the harmonious racial tolerance and superior freedom-loving values of our great Northern race. We must breed away racial lines to form a master species that will conquer the world beneath the Stars and Stripes, and free the Negros of the South to redeem our national honor! Bill Pelley is the final prophet, he has been shown by Jesus when the Son stepped from his flying saucer to deliver unto Pelley the Word of God the future of our nation and race, and he will lead us to victory as our chosen supreme leader! Obey Pelley, hate the Southerner, and bring glory to your nation! Hail Pelley! Hail Liberty!"

    Obviously I'm playing fast and loose with Tl-191 canon, but screw it, everything after How Few Remain is implausible and increasingly poorly written garbage and I want me some crazy Yankee race theories to liven up the timeline.
     
  16. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I like what you wrote about the different leaders. I also found what you wrote about Pelley very interesting as well.

    However, I think that Social Democracy, Centrism and Paternal Autocracy should exist as ideologies, bringing the number of ideologies to ten, which seems a bit more reasonable than my proposed fourteen. I think that Social Democracy can exist to distinguish itself from the more radical and undemocratic strains of socialism. Centrism can exist to encompass Market Liberals, Agrarians and other middle of the road ideologies. Paternal Autocracy can exist to distinguish oligarchies, absolute monarchies and far-right nationalist regimes from strongmen dictatorships.

    I also think that this mod should stay as true to the books as possible.
     
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  17. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    This a reworked and detailed description of my proposed ideologies for this Timeline- 191 mod. This time, there are a more manageable ten ideologies instead of the more numerous fourteen ideologies. Sometime soon, I hope to edit my past posts of national leaders to be in accordance with these ideologies. Once again, the ideological sub-types appear in coding and in political descriptions. Again, I don't see most of these sub-types having leaders, I just decided to add them for flavor and to describe them for the purposes of lore and immersion. Just like with the original post, credit goes to Worfann101 and his post in this thread linked below (which I forgot to link above), which served as the inspiration for parts of this post. Lastly, feel free to use these ideologies for this mod.

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...e-and-discussion-thread.463716/#post-18604544

    Anyways, enjoy!

    Ideologies

    Far-Leftist Ideologies

    Communism:
    An authoritarian far-left ideology which seeks to establish a classless and socially equal communist society as was described by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto, doing so through authoritarian means and suppression of "counter-revolutionaries" and "enemies of the people." The only nation in history to be under this ideology was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, which was defeated by the Russian Empire during the Russian Civil War. However, many Red Russian Exiles, living in mostly in Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, the United States and Latin America, have stayed true to the ideals of Communism, Marxism, Leninism and Bolshevism. One of the most prominent old Bolsheviks and orthodox Marxists is Kliment Voroshilov, who lives in exile in Sweden. Another is Nikolai Bukharin, living in Switzerland, who advocates for workplace democracy and limited bureaucracy, among others, within an orthodox Marxist structure. One of the offshoots of Marxist-Leninist Communism is Equalism or Equalist Communism as theorized by Russian exiles Lazar Kaganovich and Nikolai Yezhov, both living in Switzerland, which states that any reactionary states are inherently corrupt and must be destroyed and purged into the ground by any means necessary. One other offshoot is National Bolshevism, developed in Germany by both German and exiled-Russian communists, which is a combination of both radical nationalism and Marxist-Leninist Bolshevism. Other kinds of Marxist Communism include the anti-Bolshevist Left Communism, the most prominent theorist being the Italian Marxist Amadeo Bordiga, Council Communism, the most prominent theorist being the Dutch Marxist Antonie Pannekoek, and Anarcho-Communism, which was practiced by the CNT-FIA in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War between the Kingdom of Spain and the Spanish Nationalists.

    Sub-types:
    • Marxism
    • Marxist-Leninism
    • Bukharinism
    • Equalism
    • National Bolshevism
    • Left Communism
    • Council Communism
    • Anarcho-Communism
    Socialism: A large group of far-left ideologies which all advocate for social ownership of the means of production, the self-management of workers within a nation and the disbanding of the capitalist economic system of a nation and the reestablishing of said economy into a socialist economy. Much like with Communism, a much more radical form of Socialism, there are many different variations of Socialism, some of which are more authoritarian, some others of which are more democratic, at least on paper. One of the former variations in Syndicalism, which is a radical variation of the labor movements within numerous nations, mostly in Europe and the Americas, and which seeks to establish a socialist society advanced through workers strikes and workers actions and centered around local organizations principally led by the workers of a nation, which includes the establishment of regional worker’s councils and trade unions and the establishment of workplace democracy within the workplace.

    Sub-types:
    • Revolutionary Socialism
    • Democratic Socialism
    • Syndicalism
    • Anarcho-Syndicalism
    Democratic Ideologies

    Social Democracy:
    A democratic and left-wing ideology that supports numerous different kinds of economic and social interventions on the behalf of the government of nation in an effort to promote social justice and the social well-being of the people and citizenry within a capitalist mixed economy in a democratic nation. Unlike other socialists, social democrats do not seek to redistribute all wealth within a nation, to remove the social ownership of the means of production from private owners and into the ownership of a government or to abolish the capitalist economic system of a nation, but merely to redistribute some wealth through taxation and other programs, to nationalize some important industries and to have the capitalist economic system of a nation remain intact and to work the best that it can for the poorest and most socially disadvantaged within the society of the nation. Some prominent examples of Social Democrats include the Socialist Party in the United States of America, whose front-runner in the next national convention is former New York governor Al Smith, the Labour Party in the United Kingdom led by Clement Attlee, the SDP in Germany led by Chancellor Otto Wels, the Action Party in Italy led by Prime Minister Ferruccio Parri, the SAP in Sweden led by Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson, among others.

    Social Liberalism: A democratic and left-wing ideology that is a variable of liberalism, a democratic ideology that is focused on liberty, equality before the law, individual rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, among other things. Social Liberalism itself advocates for a regulated free market economy and the expansion of civil and political rights and freedoms for the people and citizenry of a nation. As a result, social liberalism is an ideology that stays the course between socialist reforms and traditional conservative and capitalist doctrines. One prominent example of Social Liberals includes the Liberal and Progressive Wings of the Democratic Party in the United States of America, which first came to power with the presidency of Theodore Roosevelt.

    Centrism: A catchall democratic ideology that encompasses a wide variety of numerous political parties and ideologies that combine different and non-contradictory elements of the left wing and right wing of the political spectrum, as well as political parties and ideologies that may be slightly more left-wing or right-wing, but that are still very close to the political center of the political spectrum.

    Sub-types:
    • Market Liberalism
    • Agrarianism
    Social Conservatism: A democratic ideology that is focused on emphasizing loyalty to the nation and the power of traditional authority and traditional values within a society, as well as the preservation and upholding of said authorities and values. These authorities include the institutions such as the government, the military, law enforcement, organized religion and sometimes a monarchy and royal dynasty, while these values include the the family, religiosity, traditional morality, among others. One prominent example of Social Conservatives includes the conservative wing of the Democratic Party in the United States of America, which was most prominent and ruled over the political scene of the United States of America during the Remembrance Era from 1882 to 1914.

    Authoritarian Ideologies


    Paternalism: A farther ring-wing ideology which advocates for democracy, but which advocates only for democracy for the right sort of people. This ideology is a catchall ideological grouping for nations with a heavily stratified society, a disenfranchised underclass and a relatively liberal approach for the upper classes. This is the dominant ideology in the Confederate States of America. Paternalism is also the ideology of the National Party in South Africa, certain reactionary parties in Europe and certain parties in Latin America that favor the white-European criollo population over the mixed-race mestizo and/or indigenous populations of the nation.

    Despotism: A catchall ideological categorization of dictators, military dictators, strongmen, other neutral and not particularly ideological despots and/or dictators, although most of these despots and/or dictators could be described as either authoritarian centrists on the further right of the political spectrum, as well as democratic governments under an authoritarian, strongman leader and an authoritarian legislature, where democratic elections still exist, if sometimes only on paper, and where the democratic structure of government has not been completely destroyed. This ideological categorization can also refer to a colony and colonial regime of an empire, such as the British Raj, Japanese (formerly French) Indochina and the Japanese (formerly Dutch) East Indies.

    Sub-types:
    • Dictatorship
    • Military Junta
    • Authoritarian
    • Authoritarian Democracy
    • Colonial Administration
    Far-Rightist Ideologies

    Paternal Autocracy:
    A catchall ideological categorization of different ideologies in which the established and entrenched leader and/or ruling class and/or ruling party of a nation is considered to be the supreme authority over said nation and the people of said nation. This includes a number of different far-rightist nationalist movements in Europe, certain authoritarian dictatorships, certain military juntas, absolute monarchies in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, among other such regimes.

    Sub-types:
    • Military Junta
    • Absolute Monarchy
    • Oligarchy
    • Theocracy
    Actionism: An authoritarian far-right ideology, named after the Action Française Party of France, the first of its kind to achieve political power in Europe, which is an ultra-nationalist, hyper-revanchist and militaristic ideology that is marked by a dictatorial and all-encompassing state power, an emphasis on service to the state and loyalty to the nation and/or the race and people of said nation (as defined by the government), partial or total state control of the economy and active opposition and suppression of political and oftentimes racial or religious enemies of the nation. According to many Actionist movements, by "purifying" the nation, it is believed that the nation can be made strong and able to challenge any threat to its existence and power and thus prevail over said threats. Prominent examples of Actionist movements include the Freedom Party of Jake Featherston in the Confederate States of America, Action Française of King Charles XI and Charles Maurras in the Kingdom of France, the British National Party of Sir Oswald Moseley in the United Kingdom, the Motherland Party of Tsar Michael II and Prime Minister Alexander Kolchak in the Russian Empire, the Falange Española of José Antonio Primo de Rivera in Spain and the ill-fated Partito Nazionale Fascista of Benito Mussolini in Italy. It should be noted that there are numerous different ideological varieties of Actionism. Some such as Freedomism are focused heavily as the concept of race and nationhood as one and the corporatisation of the state, economy and society, some such as the AF, MP and Falange parties are Clerico-Actionist, have the church and state inter-twinned and are hyper-traditionalist, some such as the Falange are both Clerico-Actionist, hyper-traditionalist and are focused on the the corporatisation of the state, economy and society, while others such as the BNP and PNF are focused less on race and religion and more on nationhood and imperialism and the corporatisation of the state, economy and society.

    Sub-types:
    • Freedomism (for the CSA)
    • Clerico-Actionism
    • Falangism (for Spain and Latin America)
    • Fascism (for Italy)
    • Rexism (for Belgium)
    • Integralism (for Portugal and Brazil)
     
    Ferd42 likes this.
  18. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2015
    Location:
    Qo'noS, homeworld of the Klingon species
    Paternalism = pataut
    Despotism roughly = autdem

    No need for centrism or social democracy, the existence of a big mainstream socialist movement in the major powers effectively coopts socdems and KR syndicalists into one big tent.

    Actionism includes traditional fascism (return to tradition, Supreme Leader, hypermilitarist revanchism) and futurism (forge new, stronger, unitary nation under Supreme Leader with hypermilitarist revanchism), the exact nature of the beast depending on the nation--so Pelley would be more of a futurist and Featherston more of a fascist, but mechanically they're the same.

    So you have two types of socialists, two branches of moderate democracy, military dictatorship, and two types of right-wing authoritarians. Pretty decent variety there.

    Pelley is basically nutty as a fruitcake just like OTL Pelley, but this version is a proud Northern patriot raised to lionize black people as heroic fellow-toilers in the struggle against evil slavocracy* and to hate the hillbilly Southern aristocrats and their corrupt slavocratic regime, so his insanity goes down a different route.

    *Turtledove expects me to believe that the North, which is dealing with a hyper-racist South that explicitly seceded on racist grounds, will become a super-racist craphole, too. Yeah. I don't think that's very likely. Now, the North becoming a violently egalitarian and aggressively anti-racist (by the standards of the day, anyway) state in reaction to the South? That I can believe.
     
  19. PopulistBean Rockefeller Republican

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    I just thought: What if you can play as Deseret rebels (when the Second Great War happens)
     
  20. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Here is the first of a series of posts detailing my re-worked ideas for the leaders and political parties of some of the numerous nations of this mod, nations which I have all given such suggestions for in past posts. After finishing with the nations that I have already posted leaders suggestions about, I will then go on to the other nations of this mod.

    USA

    Communism (Communist Party of the USA/CPUSA): Earl Browder
    Socialism (Socialist Party-Leftist): William Z. Foster
    Social Democracy (Socialist Party): Alfred E. Smith*
    Social Liberalism (Democratic Party-Liberal): Robert Taft
    Centrism (Democratic Party-Conservative): Herbert Hoover
    Social Conservatism (Republican Party): Wendell Willkie
    Paternalism (Soldier's Circle): ????
    Despotism (Emergency Military Junta): Irving Morrell
    Paternal Autocracy (Emergency Military Junta): Irving Morrell
    Actionism (American Redemption Party/ADP): William Dudley Pelley

    CSA

    Communism: ????
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy (Radical-Liberal Party-Progressive): Huey Long
    Social Liberalism (Radical-Liberal Party-Moderate): Cordell Hull
    Centrism: ????
    Social Conservatism (Whig Party-Moderate): Carter Glass
    Paternalism (Whig Party): Samuel Longstreet
    Despotism (Confederate Military Junta): Clarence Potter
    Paternal Autocracy (Confederate Military Junta): Clarence Potter
    Actionism (Freedom Party): Jake Featherston*

    Germany

    Communism (Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands/KDP): Ernst Thalmann
    Socialism (Unabhängige Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands/USPD): Rosa Luxemburg
    Social Democracy (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands/SDP): Wilhelm II/Otto Wels*
    Social Liberalism (Deutsche Volkspartei/DVP): Wilhelm II/Eduard Dingeldey
    Centrism (Centre): Wilhelm II/Heinrich Bruning
    Social Conservatism (Reichspartei or Christlich Demokratische Union/CDU): Wilhelm II/Manfred von Richthoften or Wilhelm II/Konrad Adenauer
    Paternalism (Deutschnationale Volkspartei/DNVP): Wilhelm II/Alfred Hugenberg
    Despotism (Militärregierung): Wilhelm II/August von Mackensen
    Paternal Autocracy (Haus Hohenzollern): Wilhelm II
    Actionism (Deutsche Vaterlandsfront/DVF): Wilhelm II and/or Heinrich Himmler and later Rudolf Hess

    United Kingdom

    Communism (Communist Party of Great Britain/CPGB): Harry Pollitt
    Socialism (Independent Labour Party/ILP): James Maxton
    Social Democracy (Labour Party): George V and Edward VIII/Clement Attlee
    Social Liberalism (Liberal Party): George V and Edward VIII/Archibald Sinclair
    Centrism (Liberal National Party/LNP): George V and Edward VIII/John Simon
    Social Conservatism (Conservative Party): George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
    Paternalism (Conservative-BNP Coalition): George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill*
    Despotism (Conservative-BNP Coalition): George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
    Paternal Autocracy (House of Windsor): George V and Edward VIII
    Actionism (British National Party/BNP): George V and Edward VIII/Oswald Mosley

    Italy

    Communism (Partito Comunista d'Italia/PCd'I): Palmiro Togliatti
    Socialism (Partito Comunista d'Italia-Sinistra/PCd'I-S): Amadeo Bordiga
    Social Democracy (Partito socialista riformista italiano/PSRI): Victor Emmanuel III/Ivanoe Bonomi
    Social Liberalism (Partito d'azione/PA): Victor Emmanuel III/Ferrucio Parri
    Centrism (Partito Liberale Italiano/PLI): Victor Emmanuel III/Luigi Einaudi
    Social Conservatism (Partito Popolare Italiano/PPI): Victor Emmanuel III/Alcide de Gaspieri
    Paternalism (Unione liberale/UL): Victor Emmanuel III/Emilio de Bono*
    Despotism (Giunta militare italiana): Victor Emmanuel III/Pietro Badoglio
    Paternal Autocracy (Casa Savoia): Victor Emmanuel III
    Actionism (Coalizione di estrema destra/CED): Victor Emmanuel III/Benito Mussolini
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019