TL 191 HOI4 Mod Update and Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by weaverj, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Here are my recommendations for the ideologies and some of the leaders of a Timeline 191 HOI4 mod. This is actually something I wrote a while ago, thinking about what a Timeline 191 HOI4 mod would look like, and it seems appropriate to post now. I edited and added some of the ideologies. Lastly, I may re-post this and add some more leaders and add political party names latter. I hope to have a list of all leaders for all European and American nations before soon.

    I would also highly recommend using the Timeline 191-Filling the Gaps Thread as a model for the leaders and politics of this mod.

    Ideologies

    Communism
    Syndicalism
    Socialism
    Social Democracy
    Liberalism
    Centrism
    Conservatism
    Paternalism
    Despotism
    Actionism

    USA

    Communism: Earl Browder
    Syndicalism: ????
    Socialism: William Z. Foster
    Social Democracy: Alfred E. Smith*
    Liberalism: Robert Taft
    Centrism: Herbert Hoover
    Conservatism: Wendell Willkie
    Paternalism: ????
    Despotism: Daniel MacArthur
    Actionism: William Dudley Pelley

    CSA

    Communism: ????
    Syndicalism: ????
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy: Huey Long
    Liberalism: Ainsworth Layne
    Centrism: ????
    Conservatism: Carter Glass
    Paternalism: Cordell Hull
    Despotism: Clarence Potter
    Actionism: Jake Featherston*

    Germany

    Communism: Ernst Thalmann
    Syndicalism: Rudolf Rocker
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy: Wilhelm II/Otto Wels*
    Liberalism: Wilhelm II/Eduard Dingeldey
    Centrism: Wilhelm II/Heinrich Bruning
    Conservatism: Wilhelm II/Konrad Adenauer
    Paternalism: Wilhelm II/Alfred Hugenberg
    Despotism: Wilhelm II/Kurt von Schleicher
    Actionism: Wilhelm II/Rudolf Hess

    United Kingdom

    Communism: Harry Pollitt
    Syndicalism: Tom Mann
    Socialism: James Maxton
    Social Democracy: George V and Edward VIII/Clement Attlee
    Liberalism: George V and Edward VIII/Archibald Sinclair
    Centrism: George V and Edward VIII/John Simon
    Conservatism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
    Paternalism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill*
    Despotism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
    Actionism: Edward VIII/Oswald Mosely

    France

    Communism: Maurice Thorez
    Syndicalism: Hubert Lagardelle
    Socialism: Marcel Déat
    Social Democracy: Leon Blum
    Liberalism: Édouard Daladier
    Centrism: Louis Marin
    Conservatism: Pierre-Étienne Flandin
    Paternalism: François de La Rocque
    Despotism: Charles De Gaulle
    Actionism: Charles XI/Philippe Henriot*

    Italy

    Communism: Palmiro Togliatti
    Syndicalism: Alceste De Ambris
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy: Victor Emmanuel III/ Ferrucio Parri*
    Liberalism: Victor Emmanuel III/Ivanoe Bonomi
    Centrism: Victor Emmanuel III/Luigi Einaudi
    Conservatism: Victor Emmanuel III/Alcide de Gaspieri
    Paternalism: Victor Emmanuel III/Emilio de Bono
    Despotism: Victor Emmanuel III/Pietro Badoglio
    Actionism: Victor Emmanuel III/Benito Mussolini

    Austria-Hungary/Danubia

    Communism: Johann Koplenig
    Syndicalism: ????
    Socialism: Otto Bauer
    Social Democracy: Karl I/Karl Renner
    Liberalism: Karl I/????
    Centrism: Karl I/????
    Conservatism: Karl I/Julius Raab*
    Paternalism: Karl I/Wilhelm Miklas
    Despotism: Karl I/????
    Actionism: Karl I/Englebert Dolfuss

    Russia

    Communism: Nikolai Bukharin
    Syndicalism: Stepan Maximovich Petrichenko
    Socialism: Viktor Chernov
    Social Democracy: Aleksander Kerensky
    Liberalism: Pavel Mulikov
    Centrism: ????
    Conservatism: ????
    Paternalism: Micheal III/Anton Denikin
    Despotism: Micheal III/Pyotr Wrangel
    Actionism: Micheal III/Alexander Kolchak*

    Spain

    Communism: Jose Ramos Diaz
    Syndicalism: Juan Garcia Oliver
    Socialism: Joaquín Maurín Juliá
    Social Democracy: Alfonso XIII/Francisco Largo Caballero
    Liberalism: Alfonso XIII/Niceto Alcalá-Zamora
    Centrism: Alfonso XIII/Alejandro Lerroux
    Conservatism: Alfonso XIII/José María Gil-Robles y Quiñones*
    Paternalism: Alfonso XIII/José Calvo Sotelo
    Despotism: Alfonso XIII/Jose Sanjuro
    Actionism: Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera

    Brazil

    Communism: Luis Carlos Prestes
    Syndicalism: Edgard Leuenroth
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy: Dom Pedro III/????
    Liberalism: Dom Pedro III/Julio Prestes
    Centrism: Dom Pedro III/Cândido Rondon
    Conservatism: Dom Pedro III/Artur Bernardes*
    Paternalism: Dom Pedro III/????
    Despotism: Dom Pedro III/Pedro Aurélio de Góis Monteiro
    Actionism: Dom Pedro III/Plinio Salgado

    *=Leader at 1936 start date.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  2. weaverj Fortnite Delenda Est

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    Currently, there are two Fascist Ideologies in the mod: Supremacism and Unitism:
    Supremacism is a totalitarian Ultra Nationalist ideology, and modeled from the base Fascism in-game. Unitism is a Monarchist authoritarian Ideology with some good old 19th Century Imperialist stuff thrown in.
     
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  3. Landser03 Well-Known Member

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    Australia
    Wouldn’t Franz von Papen or Kurt von Schleicher make a lot more sense?
     
  4. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    I made Von Schleicher the despotism leader.
     
  5. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Heres two more for tonight.

    Netherlands

    Communism: David Wijnkoop
    Syndicalism: Christiaan Cornelissen
    Socialism: Henk Sneevliet
    Social Democracy: Wilhelmina/Willem Schermerhorn
    Liberalism: Wilhelmina/Pieter Oud
    Centrism: Wilhelmina/Dirk Jan de Geer
    Conservatism: Wilhelmina/Hendrikus Colijn*
    Paternalism: Wilhelmina/Carel Gerretson
    Despotism: Wilhelmina/Hendrik Seyffardt
    Actionism: Wilhelmina/Anton Mussert

    Norway

    Communism: Adam Egede-Nissen
    Syndicalism: Malfred Bergseth
    Socialism: Olav Scheflo
    Social Democracy: Haakon VII/Johan Nygaardsvold
    Liberalism: Haakon VII/Johan Ludwig Mowinckel*
    Centrism: Haakon VII/Jens Hundseid
    Conservatism: Haakon VII/Ivar Lykke
    Paternalism: Haakon VII/Ingolf Elster Christensen
    Despotism: Haakon VII/Carl Gustav Fleischer
    Actionism: Haakon VII/Vidkun Quisling
     
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  6. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    Qo'noS, homeworld of the Klingon species
    That reminds me, what would your take on Tl-191 that you put up a while back look like in *ww2? I know there's a cover of it on deviantart but that has a lot of plausibility issues, especially the commie British Empire.
     
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  7. Von Tyrconnell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    The Easter Rising succeeded in TL-191, right?

    Ireland

    Communism: James Larkin
    Syndicalism: James Connolly
    Socialism: Michael Mallin
    Social Democracy: William Norton
    Liberalism: Sean Lemass
    Centrism: Patrick Pearse*
    Conservatism: James Dillon
    Paternalism: Michael Collins
    Despotism: Dan Breen
    Actionism: Eoin O'Duffy
     
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  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    So, what does China look like in this mod? How's it divided up?
     
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  9. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015

    Poor old Charles W. LaFollette gets no respect, as usual!:biggrin:

    Now I was inches away from suggesting we use Hosea Blackford for "Paternalism" (given he's basically a Team Dad, at least as I see him) but given he's quite, quite dead by this point in the Timeline that would be just a TOUCH out of kilter; I'm also not sure it would suit the Socialist Party ethos as well as it would the 191 Dems.

    However, since Paternalism is a fairly "Patrician" attitude, why not use one of Theodore Roosevelt's sons? (You could possibly make a reasonable case for TR being as much a Paternalist as anything and the fact that Mr Roosevelt is effectively THE Greatest Hero President in Modern American History makes it somewhat curious that we never really hear very much about his heirs throughout the remainder of the SOUTHERN VICTORY novels*); I'm tempted to suggest Quentin Roosevelt - to drive home that this is an Alternate History and also because after the late 1930s he'd be roughly the right age to act as a slightly older Thomas E. Dewey.

    QR was born in November 1897, so in 1936 he'd be 38 or 39 (though one suspects he'd be better advised to run in 1940; he'd be a convincingly youthful Democratic alternative to the ageing Al Smith); I should also admit that making the "Paternalist" candidate the son of a President amuses me more than it probably should.


    *The most logical explanation which occurs to me is that they're all dead in the Great War or the Spanish Flu, but that might be just a tad cruel (even to the Man who Conquered Canada).



    I'd like to suggest using Samuel Longstreet as the "Centrist" candidate - we don't learn very much, if at all about the man (so we have a great deal of carte blanche to interpret him as we see fit) and it seems likely that, since he was at least vaguely electable in 1933, he wasn't very closely associated with the Mitchel Administration (which I see as Conservative or Paternalist). His choice of Hugo Black as VP candidate can also be interpreted as hinting at a "middle of the road" approach (since Black was briefly associated with the KKK in our own time, I tend to imagine he flirted with the Freedom Party but turned against them after the Hampton Assassination and, more unusually, STAYED away even after Mitchel screwed the pooch).

    I'm also not sure that Clarence Potter fits "Despotism" very well (given that he doesn't seem to have had nearly enough Political connections to rise so high, in the absence of a Featherston Administration to lift him up); I would suggest using Willy Knight in the role, to drive home the point that while he's not as Bad as Jake Featherston he is pretty d--- bad nonetheless.

    I think we can safely say that the CSA would only go Communist/Syndicalist/Socialist in the event of an outright Revolution - perhaps the Spanish Confederates & Confederate coloureds sink their differences? - which utterly overthrows the existing political establishment; I'd suggest making the leadership picks African American or Hispanic to reflect this (my guess is that the Syndicalist MIGHT be able to work with the Radical Liberals, assuming they skew a little more Radical, but I'm not au fait enough with that ideology to be sure).



    Remember that Kaiser Wilhelm dies in 1941 "on schedule" and is replaced by Kaiser Wilhelm III - which might get a little confusing; we might fudge things a little and show Crown Prince Wilhelm taking the throne under the name "Frederick IV" as a way of moving past the lingering controversies likely to a cling on to his father's memory.**

    **The Crown Prince's birth name was Friederich Wilhelm Victor August Ernst; on an unrelated note, given his own eldest son contracted a morganatic marriage AND died in the Second World War in our own timeline, it might be interesting to show something similar happening in Timeline 191 (which would make Louis Ferdinand heir to the Imperial throne at the very worst possible time for a man with such a French name to assume such dignities!).



    To make the period before the Second Great War breaks out more interesting, you might do worse than to incorporate the possibility of Karl I & IV dying unexpectedly (as he did in our own Timeline, albeit somewhat earlier than 1936***), leaving a fairly young Otto Von Habsburg holding the bag of cats better known as Austria-Hungary and opening up the serious possibility of an Austro-Hungarian Civil War in the mid to late 1930s (acting as a local equivalent to the Spanish Civil War).

    Thus the more moderate or liberal leaders would be co-operating with Karl I & IV, while the more despotic might be propping up (or blatantly puppeteering) Otto I & II.

    ***As did a truly frightening number of Habsburg heirs, including Archduke Franz Ferdinand & Crown Prince Rudolph - it's hard not to suspect some sort of Curse on the male line of the family that only appears to have broken once they stopped being monarchs.
     
  10. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    I completely forgot to add - it strikes me that 1936 might be a little late for the Confederate Civil War (since Featherston has had some years to establish himself and a good many "floating" Whigs might well decide that Governor Long is not the horse they want to back against The Snake), but it WOULD make an excellent Point of Divergence for a "War that came Early" timeline, where the unsuccessful attack on Governor Long & the "Police Action" that would likely follow it triggers the fourth War Between the States some years early.

    It seems highly unlikely that the Confederates would win that one, but its possible that the US might prefer to prop up a Confederate Puppet State rather than go to the trouble & expense of a long occupation (especially since there's no Population Reduction to hold up to the Southern population as proof positive that they were on the wrong side of History and convince the more dovish Northerners that there's a Moral Imperative to sit on the South for the rest of time, no matter how bloody things get).

    I can imagine quite a few butterflies launching themselves in the wake of such a decision ...
     
  11. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Sweden

    Communism: Sven Linderot
    Syndicalism: Jan Fridegård
    Socialism: Nils Flyg
    Social Democracy: Gustaf V/Per Albin Hansson*
    Liberalism: Gustaf V/Eliel Löfgren
    Centrism: Gustaf V/Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp
    Conservatism: Gustaf V/Gösta Bagge
    Paternalism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström
    Despotism: Gustaf V/Olof Thörnell
    Actionism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström

    Finland

    Communism: Otto Wille Kuusinen
    Syndicalism: Aimo Aaltonen
    Socialism: Yrjö Sirola
    Social Democracy: Frederik Kaarle I/Väinö Tanner
    Liberalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Risto Ryti
    Centrism: Frederik Kaarle I/Kyösti Kallio
    Conservatism: Frederik Kaarle I/Pehr Evind Svinhufvud*
    Paternalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vihtori Kosola
    Despotism: Frederik Kaarle I/Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
    Actionism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vilho Annala
     
  12. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Remember, the British in that timeline are monsters who have aligned with the racist Confederate elite and then lost a Great War. And the postwar successor state is socialist but not communist.

    So far.
     
  13. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    Qo'noS, homeworld of the Klingon species
    No, I mean that I find it impossible to believe that a radical socialist revolt against a very British, paternalistic authoritarian capitalist regime would be able to keep India and all those chunks of Africa. I also think it's a bit cliched to have Germany go fascist when their nationalists are basically choking on everything they'd ever wanted or dreamed of. But I love the way you have President Teddy Roosevelt and VP DuBois kick Dixie in the balls and restore the Union (though, I'd think they'd hand those bits of Mexico the Confederacy somehow took back to Mexico), that was a very logical end to *WW1.
     
  14. HIM Dogson Rationally Royalist

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    Location:
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    Are Maurass and Mosley confirmed to be in power in 1936? Because if not some Kaiserreich style alternate paths would be great to see.

    Another note: most maps I've seen have still had China under the Qing. I don't actually think the situation in China is ever dealt with in detail, which is a bit of a shame.
     
  15. Gabzcervo Vanguards of Liberty and Paradise is coming soon

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    Binangonan, Philippines
    What about Japan?
     
  16. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Where would our glorious Vozhd Boris Savinkov be here?
     
  17. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

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    Here are my thoughts on China.

    Communism: Mao Zedong
    Syndicalism: ????
    Socialism: ????
    Social Democracy: Wang Jingwei
    Liberalism: Hu Shih
    Centrism: V. S. Wellington Koo
    Conservatism: Lin Sen
    Paternalism: Wang Jingwei
    Despotism: Chiang Kai-shek*
    Actionism: Dai Li
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  18. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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  19. bguy Donor

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    Jun 22, 2008
    1936 was the year in the TL-191 canon where there was an attempt on Featherston's life at the Olympics and where Featherston purged General Stuart. Have either the assassination attempt on Featherston succeed or have Stuart decide to launch a military coup in response to Featherston trying to get rid of him, and you could see a Confederate civil war break out that year.

    Agreed. The US at that point was having enough trouble just trying to hold down Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Houston, so I can't see them wanting to take on the added burden of the rest of the CSA.
     
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  20. Pelranius Well-Known Member

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    Jun 26, 2018
    Hmm, could Konrad Heinlein by the KuK actionist leader?