TL-191 Fridge Logic thread:

[Don Lardo]

I'm pretty certain the US took Midway and Wake when the Japanese withdrew; but that's about it.

Good grief...

By re-take I was referring to an assault and invasion which defeats the Japanese defenders and what I meant was readily apparent when I wrote about Japan withdrawing from the islands instead the US re-taking them.

Of course the US re-occupied the islands after Japan withdrew. But they seemingly didn't nothing else afterward, despite Midway's nice location as a forward submarine base as shown in our Pacific war.

 

[Don Lardo]

That seems to be a pretty big theme of the books doesn't it.

No, it doesn't.

How many times have the characters talked about events that were going on in the world and how they couldn't do a damn thing about it?

Japan isn't the same category as the Russian pogroms or Armenian massacres several POV characters mentioned as being something the US cannot do a damn thing about.

Japan and the US in this time line have fought three wars against each other; both of the world wars and the "war" which began after Japan bombed Los Angeles. Japan was on the losing side in both world wars and was the unquestioned aggressor in the third. Japan was caught arming the Canadian rebellion and even torpedoed a US carrier as part of that effort. Yet the despite all that the US seems to have this blindspot regarding Japan about the size of Turtledove's bank account.

In the Great War, after beating the CSA and accepting the UK's request for a ceasefire, the US never redeploys to the Pacific to settle Japan's hash. Japan is able to announce it's quit fighting and keep everything it's grabbed. In the 1930s, after the US mainland in bombed by Japanese carrier planes, and despite the fact that war time spending is a great way to beat economic troubles, the US is content to dance around for a few years trading carrier raids until the war seemingly called on a lack of interest. In the 2nd Great War, after destroying the CSA, putting down a Canadian uprising, and watching it's ally Germany nuke Britain, France, and Russia several times, the US once again lets Japan off the hook and lets Japan keep her gains despite the US having nuclear weapons of it's own.

Japan is involved in these wars and Japan always avoids the consequences of those wars for one reason: Turltedove is too goddamn lazy to not to write Japan into the wars and too goddamn lazy to work out what the consequences of Japan's participation would be.

Also, does anybody know what Featherston looks like?

There are several threads on this very forum which already answered that question. One was active only a few months ago.

 

[Lightman]

Perhaps this is explained somewhere, but how did the Whigs become a major Confederate party?

 

[robertp6165]

Actually it was in Lexington, somewhere in South Carolina.

No, it was in Lexington, VIRGINIA. Fitz-Belmont worked for Washington College (what became Washington and Lee University in OTL). I agree that this was a stupid decision on HT's part. The program should have been located in the DEEP DEEP South, not on the fracking frontier!

 

[Indigo]

Actually, turtledove never explains why the Whigs became the name of the ruling confederate party, as opposed to the Democrats.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Actually, turtledove never explains why the Whigs became the name of the ruling confederate party, as opposed to the Democrats.

If anything the "Radical Liberals" should have been called the Whigs given that the OTL Confederate Opposition were mostly pre-war Whigs.

 

[Polish Eagle]

No, it was in Lexington, VIRGINIA. Fitz-Belmont worked for Washington College (what became Washington and Lee University in OTL). I agree that this was a stupid decision on HT's part. The program should have been located in the DEEP DEEP South, not on the fracking frontier!

Quite. All one needs to do is give Morrel/Rommel a few dozen barrels and air support, and the Confederate nuclear program is dead. It's not like the USA didn't know where it was; they bombed it quite often.

Also, it seemed to me that the Red Negro Uprising was put down too easily. Sure, there was a lot of damage, but it seemed the Red Blacks couldn't hold a single major city. Given that in large parts of the Deep South, blacks outnumbered whites, one would think at least Montgomery or Birmingham would fall, but they don't.

 

[Thande]

Do it! Please?

I agree you should do it Thande.

Maybe I will then. I wanted an easy project to get back into writing. In the end I did the TL in my sig about Gordon Brown instead...but I could come back to this.

Actually, turtledove never explains why the Whigs became the name of the ruling confederate party, as opposed to the Democrats.

That part actually made sense to me, given that the conceit is that the CSA initially had no political parties and divisions only emerged after the Second Mexican War. So it's only then that political parties are named and by that point the Democrats are thought of mainly as a US political party (though whether they could plausibly be the ruling party from 1864 to 1880 is another kettle of fish). Whig is a reasonable enough name given that while the actual Whig Party was obviously long gone, a lot of Southern US newspapers originally founded as Whig Party mouthpieces kept their original names and thus might have lent that to a new party name for the establishment they now spoke for (for instance, Turtledove repeatedly (of course) mentions the Richmond Whig newspaper).

 

[Fenwick]

Maybe I will then. I wanted an easy project to get back into writing. In the end I did the TL in my sig about Gordon Brown instead...but I could come back to this.

That part actually made sense to me, given that the conceit is that the CSA initially had no political parties and divisions only emerged after the Second Mexican War. So it's only then that political parties are named and by that point the Democrats are thought of mainly as a US political party (though whether they could plausibly be the ruling party from 1864 to 1880 is another kettle of fish). Whig is a reasonable enough name given that while the actual Whig Party was obviously long gone, a lot of Southern US newspapers originally founded as Whig Party mouthpieces kept their original names and thus might have lent that to a new party name for the establishment they now spoke for (for instance, Turtledove repeatedly (of course) mentions the Richmond Whig newspaper).

I saw it as the CSA adopting UK styles. The aside about a fire plug for the police, or the banknotes. Of course it seems to fit when you think of how the CSA pushed for anti-slavery stances.

 

[Thande]

I saw it as the CSA adopting UK styles. The aside about a fire plug for the police, or the banknotes. Of course it seems to fit when you think of how the CSA pushed for anti-slavery stances.

While the CSA does have some British terminology in use, the British Whig Party ceased to exist in 1868 so I'm not sure why the Confederates would adopt the term in that sense...I think the American Whig Party would be a more obvious inspiration if any.

 

[A.M. Turtle]

While the CSA does have some British terminology in use, the British Whig Party ceased to exist in 1868 so I'm not sure why the Confederates would adopt the term in that sense...I think the American Whig Party would be a more obvious inspiration if any.

Considering the Whig Party went onto to be, the devil to the South, the Republican Party I find that logic a bit iffy.

 

[Venusian Si]

Considering the Whig Party went onto to be, the devil to the South, the Republican Party I find that logic a bit iffy.

What I always found odd was that the C.S. having a Whig Party is a very common trope in a large amount of Confederate TLs, yet you will be hard pressed to find a Confederate TL where the Southern Democratic Party doesn't change its name. While they certainly exist, they aren't as common as they should be IMO.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Maybe I will then. I wanted an easy project to get back into writing. In the end I did the TL in my sig about Gordon Brown instead...but I could come back to this.

If you don't, I will.

Given your project count.... well, that's your business. Certainly I don't have my Turtledove books here, so I'd be sketching a straight timeline rather than the more diverting Turtledove-voiced: "Now he's applying Zinc Oxide off the coast of Liberia!"

 

[Alternatehistoryguy47]

No, it doesn't.



Japan isn't the same category as the Russian pogroms or Armenian massacres several POV characters mentioned as being something the US cannot do a damn thing about.

Japan and the US in this time line have fought three wars against each other; both of the world wars and the "war" which began after Japan bombed Los Angeles. Japan was on the losing side in both world wars and was the unquestioned aggressor in the third. Japan was caught arming the Canadian rebellion and even torpedoed a US carrier as part of that effort. Yet the despite all that the US seems to have this blindspot regarding Japan about the size of Turtledove's bank account.

In the Great War, after beating the CSA and accepting the UK's request for a ceasefire, the US never redeploys to the Pacific to settle Japan's hash. Japan is able to announce it's quit fighting and keep everything it's grabbed. In the 1930s, after the US mainland in bombed by Japanese carrier planes, and despite the fact that war time spending is a great way to beat economic troubles, the US is content to dance around for a few years trading carrier raids until the war seemingly called on a lack of interest. In the 2nd Great War, after destroying the CSA, putting down a Canadian uprising, and watching it's ally Germany nuke Britain, France, and Russia several times, the US once again lets Japan off the hook and lets Japan keep her gains despite the US having nuclear weapons of it's own.

Japan is involved in these wars and Japan always avoids the consequences of those wars for one reason: Turltedove is too goddamn lazy to not to write Japan into the wars and too goddamn lazy to work out what the consequences of Japan's participation would be.



There are several threads on this very forum which already answered that question. One was active only a few months ago.

umm... i wasn't talking about Japan in my previous post... at all. I was talking about Turtldove's choice of characters and how he writes them... so... yeah...

by the way, I've been looking around the forums for a while trying to find those threads even before I posted the question and I haven't had much success... links please? I'd appreciate it very much.

 

[lord caedus]

If you don't, I will.

Given your project count.... well, that's your business. Certainly I don't have my Turtledove books here, so I'd be sketching a straight timeline rather than the more diverting Turtledove-voiced: "Now he's applying Zinc Oxide off the coast of Liberia!"

As long as you don't follow-up with a Turtledove-style repetition of the same things every five pages, you're fine.

 

[Trotsky]

No, it was in Lexington, VIRGINIA. Fitz-Belmont worked for Washington College (what became Washington and Lee University in OTL). I agree that this was a stupid decision on HT's part. The program should have been located in the DEEP DEEP South, not on the fracking frontier!

What I don't get is why HT chose Washington U, which I understand in both OTL and in TL-191 is a quiet lib arts university.

Quite. All one needs to do is give Morrel/Rommel a few dozen barrels and air support, and the Confederate nuclear program is dead. It's not like the USA didn't know where it was; they bombed it quite often.

Morrell was deep down in Georgia by the time FDR and FHB figured out what worth Washington University had to the Featherstonites. And also they did bomb it a lot; the C.S. only got as far as they did totally thanks to foreign help.

 

[Thande]

If you don't, I will.

Given your project count.... well, that's your business. Certainly I don't have my Turtledove books here, so I'd be sketching a straight timeline rather than the more diverting Turtledove-voiced: "Now he's applying Zinc Oxide off the coast of Liberia!"

I was planning to do it as a story and imitate Turtledove's style in a parodic way myself. So if you want to have a go as well but do it as a timeline, there's no clash there.

 

[teg]

Leaving Japan alone in 1917 actually made sense, as none of the stuff they took had much strategic relevance (maybe Qingado or Guam, but that's really it), or if it did, Germany and the USA could get replacements from the Britain/France without having to fight (whic at the end of a brutal three year war, would have been of great importance). In 1944, I'll admit it was a bit weird. The best explanation, is that nobody in the USA saw any worth in hammering Japan, when it could always provide a counter-weight against Russia in Asia.

 

[A.M. Turtle]

I think you need to keep in mind however that Japan switched sides at the end of WW2 and started attacking Britain and forcing Russia out of Vladivostok. Why would Germany and the US attack an "ally" in a region that doesn't really affect or matter to them?

 

[Don Lardo]

umm... i wasn't talking about Japan in my previous post... at all.

You responded to my post which was talking about Japan. You even quoted a sentence from that post which mentions Japan explicitly:

In the books, the US doesn't even retake Midway. Japan withdraws from it instead and, as always, the US doesn't do a damn thing to follow up.

If you weren't talking about Japan, why did you respond to a post about Japan and quote a sentence which mentions Japan?

by the way, I've been looking around the forums for a while trying to find those threads even before I posted the question and I haven't had much success... links please? I'd appreciate it very much.

I found one rather quickly and quickly found something even more interesting in it.

You can find the thread here and the last person to post in it is YOU.

Would you care to explain to us how you can manage to post on December 5th, 2010 in a thread discussing in general what the characters in TL 191 look like and in specific what Featherston looks like and then whine for help in finding threads which discuss in general what the characters in TL 191 look like and in specific what Featherston looks like on December 31st, 2010?

Are you an amnesiac? A troll? Or something else?