Parallelism to the nazi war criminals.
Plus, hanging is a lot better than electrocution
TL-191 Fridge Logic thread:
- Thread starter Snake Featherston
- Start date
Parallelism to the nazi war criminals.
Plus, hanging is a lot better than electrocution
Not really so much parallelism to Nuremberg and postwar Europe, I think, but hanging was the sole official method carried out by the military in both timelines.
Except in the field, obviously, in which case deserters, spies and hostages are shot.
As to the electric chair, both Yanks and Confederates refer to various states using it, as well as the gas chamber.
Churchill - Mosley would never last.
I personally find the prospect of a Churchill - Mosley coalition enduring from 1932 all the way to the defeat a ridiculous concept in this series. I know the series is mainly focused on American history with the European stuff only there as a support, but if examined objectively there's no way it would've lasted.
Churchill and Mosley, firstly, would've hated each other as they were too geared towards different ideologies. It would've been very unlikely that Churchill and the conservatives would've went too far fascist. I know that there was a revanchist spirit and the circumstances would have made Churchill a different person, but Churchill was still, at the end of the day, a conservative who believed in the old English values of private property, personal liberties, and democracy. Yes, I know he was a pragmatist and no stranger to working the political system, but he still was strong on his convictions. He certainly wouldn't have gone along with Mosley and his egocentric ambitions, especially not ones involving the elimination of other parties and MPs.
Now, I know already some people are prepared to counter that Churchill was installed to keep Mosley in check rather than have him run amok. And certainly that makes sense, as the Britain with democratic traditions rooted in its history wouldn;t be as susceptible to fascism as the Germans and Italians would in OTL or even France in TTL. But what really gets me isn't so much that Churchill works to correct Mosley rather that Mosley allows himself to be checked. Mosley is a fascist - he as vision of a British superstate ruled by a strong security-defense apparatus with himself as the head. Certainly, with his inability to win the majority he needed to get the premiership in his first bout, he wouldn't decline working with Churchill initially as a practical measure, but to suggest that he sits comfortably in his "assistant to the" Prime Minister position for twelve-thirteen years?
It would've been more likely that as the Depression continues to worsen, Mosley and his Silver Shirts consistently blame the conservatives for their failure and assert themselves as the party with the real solution, gradually increasing their popularity, similar to how the Nazis rose through the Weihmar Republic. Then, sometime befroe the SGW, Mosley strikes at Churchill and usurps the primiership for himself, either through a vote of no confidence where he gets the seat, or more likely, he quietly arranges for Churchill to be assassinated, perhaps even with help from Featherson and/or Charles XI, and even uses the opportunity to expand the security apparatus through a campaign of fear.
Using the basic fasicst ploys of blaming Churhchill's death on internal enemies, leftist politicians, the Jews, probably also the Irish in the universe, and manages to get Parliament to give him emergency powers. He then goes on a Night of the Long Knives killing spree, getting rid of Conservative and Labour leaders. He then holds new elections that put the Silver Shirts in the full helms, and he slowly builds up for the SGW. This is much more realistic scenario given Mosley's pro-Nazi sentiments in OTL, which would only be exacerbated through the hardship of the Depression and the war repayments. I guess you could argue that without Mussolini or Hitler in power, Mosley's ambitions may have been mitigated with the absence of a guide, but I find that doubtful. These Machiavellian types are a dime-a-dozen, and I'm sure Mosley could've figured it all out by himself.
Again, I know American history is suppose to be the focus, but the European side of things reads lazily sometimes.
I personally find the prospect of a Churchill - Mosley coalition enduring from 1932 all the way to the defeat a ridiculous concept in this series. I know the series is mainly focused on American history with the European stuff only there as a support, but if examined objectively there's no way it would've lasted.
Churchill and Mosley, firstly, would've hated each other as they were too geared towards different ideologies. It would've been very unlikely that Churchill and the conservatives would've went too far fascist. I know that there was a revanchist spirit and the circumstances would have made Churchill a different person, but Churchill was still, at the end of the day, a conservative who believed in the old English values of private property, personal liberties, and democracy. Yes, I know he was a pragmatist and no stranger to working the political system, but he still was strong on his convictions. He certainly wouldn't have gone along with Mosley and his egocentric ambitions, especially not ones involving the elimination of other parties and MPs.
Now, I know already some people are prepared to counter that Churchill was installed to keep Mosley in check rather than have him run amok. And certainly that makes sense, as the Britain with democratic traditions rooted in its history wouldn;t be as susceptible to fascism as the Germans and Italians would in OTL or even France in TTL. But what really gets me isn't so much that Churchill works to correct Mosley rather that Mosley allows himself to be checked. Mosley is a fascist - he as vision of a British superstate ruled by a strong security-defense apparatus with himself as the head. Certainly, with his inability to win the majority he needed to get the premiership in his first bout, he wouldn't decline working with Churchill initially as a practical measure, but to suggest that he sits comfortably in his "assistant to the" Prime Minister position for twelve-thirteen years?
It would've been more likely that as the Depression continues to worsen, Mosley and his Silver Shirts consistently blame the conservatives for their failure and assert themselves as the party with the real solution, gradually increasing their popularity, similar to how the Nazis rose through the Weihmar Republic. Then, sometime befroe the SGW, Mosley strikes at Churchill and usurps the primiership for himself, either through a vote of no confidence where he gets the seat, or more likely, he quietly arranges for Churchill to be assassinated, perhaps even with help from Featherson and/or Charles XI, and even uses the opportunity to expand the security apparatus through a campaign of fear.
Using the basic fasicst ploys of blaming Churhchill's death on internal enemies, leftist politicians, the Jews, probably also the Irish in the universe, and manages to get Parliament to give him emergency powers. He then goes on a Night of the Long Knives killing spree, getting rid of Conservative and Labour leaders. He then holds new elections that put the Silver Shirts in the full helms, and he slowly builds up for the SGW. This is much more realistic scenario given Mosley's pro-Nazi sentiments in OTL, which would only be exacerbated through the hardship of the Depression and the war repayments. I guess you could argue that without Mussolini or Hitler in power, Mosley's ambitions may have been mitigated with the absence of a guide, but I find that doubtful. These Machiavellian types are a dime-a-dozen, and I'm sure Mosley could've figured it all out by himself.
Again, I know American history is suppose to be the focus, but the European side of things reads lazily sometimes.
To be fair there's no reason to believe that what I tend to dub the 'King's Party' (aka Edward VIII, Winston S. Churchill and Oswald Mosley) are working any more smoothly than one might expect - after all we only hear about their Government via radio broadcasts which are unlikely to be based on insider information!
With that in mind it is reasonable to imagine that the working relationship between the Tories and the New Party 'Silver Shirts' degenerates over time - if I were to suggest a plausible reason that it never entirely disintegrates then it would be that Mosley new QUITE gets all his ducks in the row for a coup and simply loses his nerve when contemplating the uncertainty of his success in such an endeavour Vs the certainty of retaining a considerable degree of power and influence as 'Deputy Prime Minister' (for one thing Labour might well be willing to team up with the Tories to scotch Mosley should he get too uppity, if nothing else).
Especially if he were to secure a particularly sharp hook with which to make it very inconvenient for Churchill to show too much resistance.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11045087&postcount=1430
^At the other end of the link which I have taken the liberty of posting, I posit that between the Wars the British Government would have been very foolish not to reach out to the US Government in the interests of creating an agreement establishing a 'Special Relationship' between the US and the UK equivalent to (but less Mephistophelean than) the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
The two major problems with this happy inspiration would be that the Politician most likely to be spearheading this initiative is Winston S. Churchill (vulnerable to accusations and insinuations which might deal a fatal blow to The Kings Party by virtue of his own half-American heritage) and the fact that there would be significant power blocs in both countries which would require considerable finessing to 'Sell' on the whole business.
The sort of PR Operation that is difficult to pull off if, say, some little worm were to be fed information by a Snake at a crucial point in the delicate process of negotiations (if this information were to balance out plans for an Internal Coup by Mosley, I could imagine the Kings Party deciding to muddle along for just long enough to recognise a golden opportunity to sink Domestic Rivalries beneath a flood of popular enthusiasm for a Foreign War).
I hope that I have given some idea of how a Churchill-Mosley alignment might last JUST long enough to help trigger the Second Great War (basically each one would REALLY like to get rid of one another, but can't quite afford to); One would like to imagine that as the UK is obliged to acknowledge the defeat brought about in part by the Churchill-Mosley antipathy, Winston would publicly broadcast his acceptance of the Vote of No Confidence quite possibly being used to legitimate a behind-the-scenes coup by the Opposition (so that he might obliterate Mosley's chances of retaining any legitimacy) and then proudly obliging his would-be captors to consign him to the ranks of those 'Shot while resisting Arrest' for the very simple reason that "We will NEVER surrender" he said "and we REALLY meant it!" (bonus point if Winston is expressing his defiance with a Tommy Gun in addition to the memory of soaring Rhetoric).
With that in mind it is reasonable to imagine that the working relationship between the Tories and the New Party 'Silver Shirts' degenerates over time - if I were to suggest a plausible reason that it never entirely disintegrates then it would be that Mosley new QUITE gets all his ducks in the row for a coup and simply loses his nerve when contemplating the uncertainty of his success in such an endeavour Vs the certainty of retaining a considerable degree of power and influence as 'Deputy Prime Minister' (for one thing Labour might well be willing to team up with the Tories to scotch Mosley should he get too uppity, if nothing else).
Especially if he were to secure a particularly sharp hook with which to make it very inconvenient for Churchill to show too much resistance.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11045087&postcount=1430
^At the other end of the link which I have taken the liberty of posting, I posit that between the Wars the British Government would have been very foolish not to reach out to the US Government in the interests of creating an agreement establishing a 'Special Relationship' between the US and the UK equivalent to (but less Mephistophelean than) the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
The two major problems with this happy inspiration would be that the Politician most likely to be spearheading this initiative is Winston S. Churchill (vulnerable to accusations and insinuations which might deal a fatal blow to The Kings Party by virtue of his own half-American heritage) and the fact that there would be significant power blocs in both countries which would require considerable finessing to 'Sell' on the whole business.
The sort of PR Operation that is difficult to pull off if, say, some little worm were to be fed information by a Snake at a crucial point in the delicate process of negotiations (if this information were to balance out plans for an Internal Coup by Mosley, I could imagine the Kings Party deciding to muddle along for just long enough to recognise a golden opportunity to sink Domestic Rivalries beneath a flood of popular enthusiasm for a Foreign War).
I hope that I have given some idea of how a Churchill-Mosley alignment might last JUST long enough to help trigger the Second Great War (basically each one would REALLY like to get rid of one another, but can't quite afford to); One would like to imagine that as the UK is obliged to acknowledge the defeat brought about in part by the Churchill-Mosley antipathy, Winston would publicly broadcast his acceptance of the Vote of No Confidence quite possibly being used to legitimate a behind-the-scenes coup by the Opposition (so that he might obliterate Mosley's chances of retaining any legitimacy) and then proudly obliging his would-be captors to consign him to the ranks of those 'Shot while resisting Arrest' for the very simple reason that "We will NEVER surrender" he said "and we REALLY meant it!" (bonus point if Winston is expressing his defiance with a Tommy Gun in addition to the memory of soaring Rhetoric).
1) An alternative history about a WW2 without Churchill in power even if it is only for a short time is not going to sell as well as one where he is.
2) Churchill would have no problem bending his principles if it got him into government.
There is no evidence that Churchill helped trigger the Second Great War. The honours for that go to Al Smith because he would not return territory stolen form the CSA. That forced President Featherston to invade the USA.
As it is stated that defeating Germany would not get Britain her empire back but defeating Germany and the USA Churchill would declare war at the very least on the latter in support of the CSA. As Germany had a defensive treaty with USA that would have drawn her in. France and Russia would have automatically pile into a war where Germany was involved.
There is no evidence that Churchill helped trigger the Second Great War. The honours for that go to Al Smith because he would not return territory stolen form the CSA. That forced President Featherston to invade the USA.
Readers, if you believe all that then please get in touch; I have some beachfront property in New Mexico you might like to know about.
The problem, as I see it (and as I hope British Statesmen would have noticed) is that Great Britain, her Empire and her Allies have already proven unable to beat the United States and the Second Reich - The Confederate States in particular has proven itself hopelessly unable to withstand the United States in the long run, a lesson driven home at considerable cost to Great Britain and more particularly to Canada.
Therefore there seems to be no obvious advantage to supporting the Confederacy, except the short-term benefit of keeping the United States focussed upon its own frontiers and not on the Atlantic or the Pacific; given the nature of the Featherston regime, this is an advantage Great Britain is highly likely to accrue even if HM Government does not offer direct support to The Snake.
Therefore why not try to get on the Good Side of the United States? (a partner with much more to offer the British in the long term and one which might benefit itself from an … understanding with Great Britain).
It certainly MIGHT; on the other hand Germany and the United States seem to have suffered something of an estrangement between the Great Wars - for one thing we never hear that Germany has elected to honour the very defensive alliance with the United States to which you refer, even in the face of a Japanese attack on American Soil (not even with a declaration of mutual solidarity).
Quite frankly there have to be at least a few cracks in this Alliance into which one might insert wedges sufficient to start it crumbling; for one thing an offer to extend active support to the United States in its next effort to avenge the indignities of the Pacific War might be well-received.
True and quite possibly the great imponderable upon which a US/UK Non-Aggression Pact might falter and fail (even more than the Irish-American Lobby or The 'Silver Shirts'); can His Majesty of France and His Imperial Majesty of Russia be persuaded to be as businesslike as they are belligerent?
Personally I think that Turtledove should have made the USA Nazi. Granted, the Second Mexican War is essentially the Franco-Prussian War, with the newer power defeating an older power shockingly and resulting in intense revanchism for the defeated power, with the US as the France analogue and the Confederacy as the Germany analogue, but if Turtledove had made the US Nazi (the infrastructure is already there, with mass lynchings of blacks in the North after the War of Secession), the series would almost certainly have been far more powerful and thought-provoking.
That was Turtledove's original plan, but he wanted to make enough money to get his daughters through college and didn't think the public would take to the USA being the bad guys that well; so he just made the CSA the Nazi analouge.
Will people QUIT IT with "He's putting his kids through college" meme? It is not funny (and it wasn't that funny on the Simpsons either) and to the extent of my knowledge has NO EVIDENCE in fact.
Good question. I suppose that Turtledove though that having Great Britain on the same side as the CSA would make a better plot. Certainly the CSA would need support if it was going to last very long in the war. Personally I think that the level of resources that Turtledove gave the CSA was higher that it would "historically" have been.
One of them would be letting the Kriegsmarine know that the US Navy get free drinks when they visit Ireland.
I doubt that His Majesty of France could be not after his realm has been disarmed after the last war. Pre superbomb His Imperial Majesty of Russia could be, but only if the Kaiser sells out his AH and Ottoman Allies.
Personally, I think the series would have been far more thought-provoking and unique if the US was evil and therefore Turtledove would have gotten more money.
I can just imagine what the reader would think:
What? The US could have become evil!
Now that I think about it, he could have made the Socialist Party an analogue of the SPD and all of those German semi-analogues true German analogues. There are too many analogues and potential analogues to ignore.
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Except that it IS funny and is about the only logical explanation for having so many USA-Germany parallels in the first few books before doing a complete about face.
Nazi USA
What would've been interesting is if the U.S. had lost in WWI but the European Central Powers still came out victorious, a possibility given the limited coordination between the two fronts. What could've happened is that after Germany won on the European side, the war in America wages on with things going bad for the U.S. But the Germans rather than coming to their aid decide to sign a separate peace with the CSA. This could serve for a stabbed in the back analog, and put the fascist United States on the same side as England and France, and the CSA forms a new alliance with post-war Germany.
It is all redundant though as the CSA would never have been able to beat the United States in either of those two wars lol.
What would've been interesting is if the U.S. had lost in WWI but the European Central Powers still came out victorious, a possibility given the limited coordination between the two fronts. What could've happened is that after Germany won on the European side, the war in America wages on with things going bad for the U.S. But the Germans rather than coming to their aid decide to sign a separate peace with the CSA. This could serve for a stabbed in the back analog, and put the fascist United States on the same side as England and France, and the CSA forms a new alliance with post-war Germany.
It is all redundant though as the CSA would never have been able to beat the United States in either of those two wars lol.
This. And there is a poster on this board--can't remember who--specifically knew one of HT's colleagues or some such and the publishing dates essentially dovetailed with his kids college years. Also, yes it was funny on the Simpsons too.
Population reduction makes no sense. The Jews were something like 2% of the German population, while blacks would be 1/3rd of the Confederate population. The economy would collapse if a third of the population was killed, particularly an economy in wartime. And that's not getting into how much bigger the camp system would have to be, particularly since there isn't an Einsatzgruppen analog. It would be a tremendous waste of manpower in a country that already has a manpower problem. In short there's no way a CSA that started population reduction would be able to fight for 3 years.
Well, yeah. But that's the point. White suprmacy drove the Confederacy to suicide. Jake Feathers ton wasn't thinking rationally.
I'd have a USA join up with a fascist France/Russia. When France is on the ropes Britain decides to quite while the getting is good and moves a lot of its forces to Canada. The USA suffers a worse blockade and eventually gets ground down (like the Germans).
World War 2 Utah is Poland, Canada is France/North Africa (East and West respectively) while the CSA gets a weird USSR analogue.
I think that a little cruel; I would argue it is more fair to say that his work is intended as Popular Entertainment and not an academic thesis!
I would also like to note that the Population Reduction is no more insane (and no less insane) than quite a number of Government Initiatives and Policies set by your average common-or-gruesome dictator … which says something rather sad about the History of Humanity.
I would also like to note that the Population Reduction is no more insane (and no less insane) than quite a number of Government Initiatives and Policies set by your average common-or-gruesome dictator … which says something rather sad about the History of Humanity.
Just how far you are prepared to go depends on the level of hatred. Jake Featherston was prepared to go all the way and he was not the first. The Mongols massacred whole cities of people whom they barely knew.I would also like to note that the Population Reduction is no more insane (and no less insane) than quite a number of Government Initiatives and Policies set by your average common-or-gruesome dictator … which says something rather sad about the History of Humanity.
Still, dictators require stooges to do their work and you can not get much more compliant than Pinkard. His biggest complaints were firstly the low quality of the crematoria he was supplied with and secondly thatthe damnyankees were going to string him up for merely doing as he was told to do.