TL-191: Freest country

[JSmith]

But this isn't the modern USA we are talking about.

We are talking about two seperate American nations that existed in the late-19th and early-20th centuries in an alternate universe.

In the pre-Freedomite CSA, there are class problems and race problems, but if you are not black you can still make a name for yourself, even if the aristocracy still holds the reigns much of the time. Had Featherston never come to power, this could have changed, gradually.

In the pre-Freedomite CSA, there didn't seem to be de-jure segregation, just de-facto towards blacks and they were treated as an underclass, even after the Socialist Rebellions, the outright killing of all blacks wasn't on the table.

It wasn't until the Freedom Party took over, and with Jake Featherston's flame fanning of populism (which ironically enough created TTL's version of the Tennessee Valley Authority and pretty much completely improved the situation for hispanics in the country) that made the push for exterminating the blacks, to this day I think this was a stupid idea by Turtledove and that he was running out of ideas for storytelling, making the CSA kill off 1/3 of it's own people? Good GOD!

The big point that Turtledove makes about the CSA genocide against blacks isn't just that they did it but that they were willing to do it. Given the right conditions combined with the unremitting bigotry and hostility the vast majority of white Confederates felt towards blacks the possibilty of genocide was never far from the surface.When those conditions arrived- mainly a political leadership that was willing to undertake the odious task- there was next to no oppostion in the Confederate nation- on moral or practical grounds. I don't see a parallel situation in the American nation. Of these two countries the Tl-191 United States is clearly most like the OTL version and certainly more free than the CSA.

 

[Superman]

I curious as to who voted for the Russians, Ottomans and Japanese, and how Austria-Hungary has more votes than France.

 

[JSmith]

Blacks, maybe? TL-191's US isn't exactly friendly to them. The Jews are another option.

Oh I really don't think so. Yes the USA wasn't very friendly to blacks as they were still blamed for the War of Secession in some quarters but this was changing. Mr Driver realized that while things weren't perfect for blacks in the USA they were MILES ahead of the CSA. I also don't see especially widespread anti-Semitism in the USA for the time .If that were the case could Hosea Blackford had been elected vice president with a Jewish wife?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

I think I had heard this but it seems very far-fetched. For example where would the Holocaust analogy had been-surely not the Mormons?

Probably the Mormons, maybe certain immigrant groups, Turtledove probably had a reason for putting that Greek Guy in McSweeny's squad

 

[Trotsky]

Are you sure? I'm not certain that anything was ever stated about the condition of hispanics in TTL's Confederate Texas. But it certainly touched on in regards to Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba.

Off the top of my head, that Texas Ranger could be HT's way of expressing Texan attitudes.

 

[JSmith]

Probably the Mormons, maybe certain immigrant groups, Turtledove probably had a reason for putting that Greek Guy in McSweeny's squad

I still dont see this happening in the United States of this timeline. The idea that every Mormon had to die wasn't widely present in the United States. I dont think this was addressed but were there Mormon communities outside of Utah ( ie Nevada,Idaho,Colorado)in TL 191? If there were surely all of them weren't in rebellion against the USA. For that matter surely all the Mormons in Utah werent in rebellion against the USA. I just dont see the same level of vitriol in USA about Mormons or any other group that is comparable to what blacks faced in the CSA.Gordon McSweeny was as much an outlier in the USA as Adolf Hitler was in the Germany of TL-191. Jake Featherston on the other hand had lots of company in the CSA.

 

[Trotsky]

I still dont see this happening in the United States of this timeline. The idea that every Mormon had to die wasn't widely present in the United States. I dont think this was addressed but were there Mormon communities outside of Utah ( ie Nevada,Idaho,Colorado)in TL 191? If there were surely all of them weren't in rebellion against the USA. For that matter surely all the Mormons in Utah werent in rebellion against the USA. I just dont see the same level of vitriol in USA about Mormons or any other group that is comparable to what blacks faced in the CSA.Gordon McSweeny was as much an outlier in the USA as Adolf Hitler was in the Germany of TL-191. Jake Featherston on the other hand had lots of company in the CSA.

Are you then also somehow suggesting the idea that every Jew had to die was widely present in 1914 Germany? I mean, I literally have no idea what you're saying.

 

[JSmith]

Off the top of my head, that Texas Ranger could be HT's way of expressing Texan attitudes.

I think that what Harry Turtledove presents in regards to the attitude about Hispanic by white Confederates can be expressed by the OTL saying- If you're White you're alright; If your Brown stick around; If you're Black get to the back.
They tolerated Hispanics mainly because they werent black and met economic and ( in the case of the former Mexican states and Cuba) territorial needs of the Confederacy. They did not see them as equals for the most part by the Second Great War.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

I still dont see this happening in the United States of this timeline. The idea that every Mormon had to die wasn't widely present in the United States. I dont think this was addressed but were there Mormon communities outside of Utah ( ie Nevada,Idaho,Colorado)in TL 191? If there were surely all of them weren't in rebellion against the USA. For that matter surely all the Mormons in Utah werent in rebellion against the USA. I just dont see the same level of vitriol in USA about Mormons or any other group that is comparable to what blacks faced in the CSA.Gordon McSweeny was as much an outlier in the USA as Adolf Hitler was in the Germany of TL-191. Jake Featherston on the other hand had lots of company in the CSA.

The USA won WWI, if they had lost the Mormons are a logical scapegoat for why they lost the war, attitudes can change a lot in a few years

 

[JSmith]

Are you then also somehow suggesting the idea that every Jew had to die was widely present in 1914 Germany? I mean, I literally have no idea what you're saying.

There was certainly widespread anti-Semitism present in Germany when Adolf Hitler came to power and he was able to work with that. However what Im saying is that the widespread hated and dislike of Mormons,Jews and other ethnic groups in the TL-191 United States did not compare to the hated against blacks in the CSA. Therefore to me that makes genocide against those groups in the United States very unlikely even with a Gordon McSweeny at the helm.

 

[Trotsky]

There was certainly widespread anti-Semitism present in Germany when Adolf Hitler came to power and he was able to work with that. However what Im saying is that the widespread hated and dislike of Mormons,Jews and other ethnic groups in the TL-191 United States did not compare to the hated against blacks in the CSA. Therefore to me that makes genocide against those groups in the United States very unlikely even with a Gordon McSweeny at the helm.

Hitler came to power after Germany was defeated in WW1.

 

[JSmith]

Hitler came to power after Germany was defeated in WW1.

Right but the anti-Semitism in Germany and Europe as a whole preceded Hitler by hundreds of years. If we are talking about North America in TL-191 the only thing that I see thats really analagous is the position of blacks in the CSA. Blacks,Jews ,Mormons, Indians and other ethnic groups were not universally loved in the United States but they were not hated with the same level of vitriol as Jews in OTL Europe or blacks in the TL-191 CSA. Again I really don't see the USA conducting any sort of genocide in the 20th century even with a Gordon McSweeny type at the helm after a defeat by the CSA in the Great War.

 

[scourge]

I still dont see this happening in the United States of this timeline. The idea that every Mormon had to die wasn't widely present in the United States. I dont think this was addressed but were there Mormon communities outside of Utah ( ie Nevada,Idaho,Colorado)in TL 191? If there were surely all of them weren't in rebellion against the USA. For that matter surely all the Mormons in Utah werent in rebellion against the USA. I just dont see the same level of vitriol in USA about Mormons or any other group that is comparable to what blacks faced in the CSA.Gordon McSweeny was as much an outlier in the USA as Adolf Hitler was in the Germany of TL-191. Jake Featherston on the other hand had lots of company in the CSA.

Boris Lavochkin hated the shit out of Confederates from what I remember. Dude was so fucked up I don't think he would've minded reducing the white Confederates population like they had done to the black Confederates.

I recall in Settling Accounts : Return Engagement plenty of Mormons left Utah when the Mormons rose up yet again. The Mormons that left were fanatics , but the ones that stayed scared even them.

 

[JSmith]

Boris Lavochkin hated the shit out of Confederates from what I remember. Dude was so fucked up I don't think he would've minded reducing the white Confederates population like they had done to the black Confederates.

Im sure there were some who felt that way about Germans OTL but no one seriously conisdered doing the same to them-not even the Soviets.

 

[Trotsky]

Right but the anti-Semitism in Germany and Europe as a whole preceded Hitler by hundreds of years. If we are talking about North America in TL-191 the only thing that I see thats really analagous is the position of blacks in the CSA. Blacks,Jews ,Mormons, Indians and other ethnic groups were not universally loved in the United States but they were not hated with the same level of vitriol as Jews in OTL Europe or blacks in the TL-191 CSA. Again I really don't see the USA conducting any sort of genocide in the 20th century even with a Gordon McSweeny type at the helm after a defeat by the CSA in the Great War.

Yeah, and your TL-191 counterpart can't see the Germans of 1914 wishing to kill off Europe's Jewish population.

 

[JSmith]

I recall in Settling Accounts : Return Engagement plenty of Mormons left Utah when the Mormons rose up yet again. The Mormons that left were fanatics , but the ones that stayed scared even them.

Then only Utah ,for the most part, seemed to be the place they were causing serious problems .-I think there was the rare people bomb here and there as well.

 

[Trotsky]

I recall in Settling Accounts : Return Engagement plenty of Mormons left Utah when the Mormons rose up yet again. The Mormons that left were fanatics , but the ones that stayed scared even them.

I don't recall that. About the only thing remotely approaching this line was that guy assuring Potter that when the time comes, the die-hards will take care of the dissenters.

 

[JSmith]

Has the USA won yet

 

[JSmith]

Yeah, and your TL-191 counterpart can't see the Germans of 1914 wishing to kill off Europe's Jewish population.

Probably but in this case I'm right and hes wrong

 

[scourge]

I don't recall that. About the only thing remotely approaching this line was that guy assuring Potter that when the time comes, the die-hards will take care of the dissenters.

I must've misremembered that scene then. Because I remember the head of the Mormon church was saying the ones that left didn't love the United States , but they feared the die-hards even more.