TL-191: Freest country

TL-191: Freest country (right before the Great War)

  • Austria-Hungry

    Votes: 5 3.9%
  • C.S.A

    Votes: 11 8.5%
  • France

    Votes: 2 1.6%
  • Germany

    Votes: 10 7.8%
  • Great Britain

    Votes: 28 21.7%
  • Japan

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Russia

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Ottomans

    Votes: 2 1.6%
  • U.S.A

    Votes: 59 45.7%
  • Other/None/All the Same/Refuse to Answer

    Votes: 10 7.8%

  • Total voters
    129
In the CSA, whites, hispanics, indians and such were enfranchised. Blacks, not so much.

The US had no problems discriminating against and shooting Mormons.

I can't see many "Good guys" in this, but when is there any?
 

JSmith

Banned
In the CSA, whites, hispanics, indians and such were enfranchised. Blacks, not so much.

The US had no problems discriminating against and shooting Mormons.

I can't see many "Good guys" in this, but when is there any?
There are those that were better than others on the whole however.The USA treated Indians very harshly as per OTL and that is comparable to what the CSA did to blacks-but still not the same. But the way the Mormons were treated in the United States isnt really comparable to the way blacks were treated in the CSA-especially in considering the comparison as to the reasons that the USA did it and the severity of the Mormons treatment by the USA. If the Mormons had remained loyal to the USA and hadn't taken up arms -several times-their treatment would have been essentially equal. Could the same be said about blacks in the CSA-no matter what they did or didnt do ? Also while a forced relocation to Hawaii was considered for the Mormons,killing them all was never on the table.

Also in the modern USA all of those groups ( which all had low numbers) were enfranchised as well-including women . Im not sure women had the franchise in the CSA- was tht ever stated one way or the other?
 
Last edited:
Liberalized compared to pre -Great War or say OTL Germany pre or post WW1/pre WW2 ?

Best case scenario, it remains the constitutional, conservative autocracy it was up to 1914. Likeliest case, the military retains the considerable power it gained during the war and all but sidelines the other organs of government.
 
There are those that were better than others on the whole however.The USA treated Indians very harshly as per OTL and that is comparable to what the CSA did to blacks-but still not the same. But the way the Mormons were treated in the United States isnt really comparable to the way blacks were treated in the CSA-especially in considering the comparison as to the reasons that the USA did it and the severity of the Mormons treatment by the USA. If the Mormons had remained loyal to the USA and hadn't taken up arms -several times-their treatment would have been essentially equal. Could the same be said about blacks in the CSA-no matter what they did or didnt do ? Also while a forced relocation to Hawaii was considered for the Mormons,killing them all was never on the table.

Also in the modern USA all of those groups ( which all had low numbers) were enfranchised as well-including women . Im not sure women had the franchise in the CSA- was tht ever stated one way or the other?

But this isn't the modern USA we are talking about.

We are talking about two seperate American nations that existed in the late-19th and early-20th centuries in an alternate universe.

In the pre-Freedomite CSA, there are class problems and race problems, but if you are not black you can still make a name for yourself, even if the aristocracy still holds the reigns much of the time. Had Featherston never come to power, this could have changed, gradually.

In the pre-Freedomite CSA, there didn't seem to be de-jure segregation, just de-facto towards blacks and they were treated as an underclass, even after the Socialist Rebellions, the outright killing of all blacks wasn't on the table.

It wasn't until the Freedom Party took over, and with Jake Featherston's flame fanning of populism (which ironically enough created TTL's version of the Tennessee Valley Authority and pretty much completely improved the situation for hispanics in the country) that made the push for exterminating the blacks, to this day I think this was a stupid idea by Turtledove and that he was running out of ideas for storytelling, making the CSA kill off 1/3 of it's own people? Good GOD!

I think in TTL because the CSA gained it's independence that it provoked the Mormons to do the same a few times more. Each time the church was pounded into the dirt, it's temples and wards destroyed, rebuilt, and then destroyed again. All ending with a forced relocation, Utah pretty much becoming TTL's Canada alongside the CSA.
 
How exactly were Hispanics treated in the CSA? Hip Rodriguez seemed to be treated okay for the most part (except for some whites calling him "greaser" once in a while).
 
It wasn't until the Freedom Party took over, and with Jake Featherston's flame fanning of populism (which ironically enough created TTL's version of the Tennessee Valley Authority and pretty much completely improved the situation for hispanics in the country) that made the push for exterminating the blacks, to this day I think this was a stupid idea by Turtledove and that he was running out of ideas for storytelling, making the CSA kill off 1/3 of it's own people? Good GOD!

Turtledove came up with those ideas years before Settling Accounts got published. He said he decided to make Featherston the Hitler parallel about halfway through Walk in Hell.
 
How exactly were Hispanics treated in the CSA? Hip Rodriguez seemed to be treated okay for the most part (except for some whites calling him "greaser" once in a while).

Farther East in the CSA before the Great War, they were referred to as "greasers" and likely didn't have too many opportunities, but certainly more than the blacks.

Farther West in the CSA, like in Texas, Sonora and Chihuahua they seemed to be full fledged accepted into that part of Confederate society.

During the rise of the Freedom Party and GWII they were fully enfranchised and had a huge voting bloc in favor of the Freedomites because they brought modernization to the farthest reaches of the CSA.

Turtledove came up with those ideas years before Settling Accounts got published. He said he decided to make Featherston the Hitler parallel about halfway through Walk in Hell.

It still didn't seem all the creative to me. It'd been alot more interesting if there were no Hitler parallel, like putting little populists in the CSA like Huey Long becoming president of the CSA.
 
It still didn't seem all the creative to me. It'd been alot more interesting if there were no Hitler parallel, like putting little populists in the CSA like Huey Long becoming president of the CSA.
Problem is anyone but a Hitler parallel won't be stupid enough to think they can win a fight with the US, so no Settling Accounts and no resulting War, and conflict sells books, he would have to have restyled the series and done more work, at a time when he needed to keep publishing to put his kids through school

Edit: He was originally going to make Gordon McSweeny the Hitler parallel, then he figured out that there was no way in hell the CSA even with Canadian backing could beat a Central Powers allied USA
 
Farther West in the CSA, like in Texas, Sonora and Chihuahua they seemed to be full fledged accepted into that part of Confederate society.

Huh? :confused: Texas is probably the place in the Confederacy that has whites most hostile toward Hispanics.

It still didn't seem all the creative to me. It'd been alot more interesting if there were no Hitler parallel, like putting little populists in the CSA like Huey Long becoming president of the CSA.

Aside from all the observations saying that Long was but a colorful, educated, local version of Jake Featherston, he wouldn't have made a very good example for HT's thesis that Americans too are capable of doing the monstrous things that the Nazis did in the old world.

I thought Harry Turtledove mentioned some kind of liberalization.

Not that I recall. Besides, it wouldn't make any sense.
 

JSmith

Banned
Edit: He was originally going to make Gordon McSweeny the Hitler parallel, then he figured out that there was no way in hell the CSA even with Canadian backing could beat a Central Powers allied USA
I think I had heard this but it seems very far-fetched. For example where would the Holocaust analogy had been-surely not the Mormons?
 
Huh? :confused: Texas is probably the place in the Confederacy that has whites most hostile toward Hispanics.



Aside from all the observations saying that Long was but a colorful, educated, local version of Jake Featherston, he wouldn't have made a very good example for HT's thesis that Americans too are capable of doing the monstrous things that the Nazis did in the old world.



Not that I recall. Besides, it wouldn't make any sense.

Are you sure? I'm not certain that anything was ever stated about the condition of hispanics in TTL's Confederate Texas. But it certainly touched on in regards to Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba.
 
Top