TL-191: Freest country

TL-191: Freest country (right before the Great War)

  • Austria-Hungry

    Votes: 5 3.9%

  • C.S.A

    Votes: 11 8.5%

  • France

    Votes: 2 1.6%

  • Germany

    Votes: 10 7.8%

  • Great Britain

    Votes: 28 21.7%

  • Japan

    Votes: 1 0.8%

  • Russia

    Votes: 1 0.8%

  • Ottomans

    Votes: 2 1.6%

  • U.S.A

    Votes: 59 45.7%

  • Other/None/All the Same/Refuse to Answer

    Votes: 10 7.8%
  • Total voters
    129
Georgepatton

Georgepatton

Nerdlinger said:
If you ignore all the black people?
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No, wait, that could really work! If you take the total amount of freedom across the whole country, the higher level of freedom among white people more than cancels out the non-freedom of the black people. They were, so far as we can tell, entirely free from the bureaucratic rationing and control systems of the Prussified United States.

Well, it doesn't work out exactly, because much of the white freedom came at the expense of black freedom (ex. white freedom to murder uppity blacks requires the black to lose his freedom to live unlynched), but it could totally work if you wanted to do the calculation that way.

;)
 

JSmith

Banned
Even without considering the blacks in the CSA-which one couldn't honestly do if considering this question what do you have ?
A society with the economics of the planter aristocracy updated for the 20th century-which I reckon would included lots of non-unionized dirt poor white farmers. Then there is also the fact that white women ,Mexicans ,Indians,Catholics ,Jews (Saul Goldman notwithstanding) and whatever other non- white male minorities the CSA had still wouldn't be quite equal . CSA-still not number one :eek:
USA,USA ,USA!
 
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Zoidberg12

I thought it over, and I decided to vote for the USA out of the major powers. I already explained why it was the most free on my post on the previous page.

Although Trotsky made some good points about Canada, and I kinda agree with him, its not a great power, and at this point in history is pretty much subservient to Great Britain, as it was before the Statute of Westminster. So out of the Great Powers, the USA hands down. Canada and the other British Dominions I'd consider to be the UK's camp here.
 

Zoidberg12

Redcat said:
Yep, just gotta think like a Confederate.
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With that logic, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia would be the most "free" as well. (Which, along with the CSA, there not). :rolleyes:;)

Russia and Ottomans actually got one vote each, and I'm just as surprised that AH got four.
 

Mr.J

Zoidberg12 said:
With that logic, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia would be the most "free" as well. (Which, along with the CSA, there not). :rolleyes:;)

Russia and Ottomans actually got one vote each, and I'm just as surprised that AH got four.
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Nah, if A-H is anything like it was IOTL, the place is full of stifling bureaucracy that lacks only the "Prussian" virtue of efficiency - ever read Good Solder Schweik? :D
 

Mr.J

Trotsky said:
IIRC that was listed as an option in OTL's U.S. Army field manual. So it's not just the Prussia-wannabes of TL-191.
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But we never actually did it, IIRC. Not that we didn't do plenty of other terrible stuff in the Phillippines and similar places...
 

Saladan

too add to the whole CSA not even being all the great to it's non black populations, wasn't one reason Featherston got so much support among the nation's lower and middle class whites was because honestly while you could certainly vote in the CSA (if you were a white male) you still had little actual power or authority when it came to policy matters as well as your vote not really counting much in comparison to the Rich planter class' vote? And though its been ages since I last read any of the TL, Jeb Stuart II's (I think it was him) conversation with Jake lead me to believe the CSA was not only racist but also classist as well though unofficially in that case.
 

JSmith

Banned
Saladan said:
too add to the whole CSA not even being all the great to it's non black populations, wasn't one reason Featherston got so much support among the nation's lower and middle class whites was because honestly while you could certainly vote in the CSA (if you were a white male) you still had little actual power or authority when it came to policy matters as well as your vote not really counting much in comparison to the Rich planter class' vote? And though its been ages since I last read any of the TL, Jeb Stuart II's (I think it was him) conversation with Jake lead me to believe the CSA was not only racist but also classist as well though unofficially in that case.
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Absolutely. One of Featherston's biggest beefs was with the ruling Whigs and the professional army command made up of ruling Whigs. But it was mostly because they had power and he didnt-which in and of itself is class resentment. Sure he thought they went too easy on blacks and the USA but he hated blacks and the USA way more than Whigs and the power they had. In fact once he had power he used it more completely than the Whigs ever did.
 
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modelcitizen

modelcitizen

Trotsky said:
IIRC that was listed as an option in OTL's U.S. Army field manual. So it's not just the Prussia-wannabes of TL-191.
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That is pretty bad. There's so much about that that I find wrong on so many levels. It's an interesting thing to have in the novel, I think I'd be ready to riot if we ever did that in otl.


Mr.J said:
But we never actually did it, IIRC. Not that we didn't do plenty of other terrible stuff in the Phillippines and similar places...
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Plus the ethnic cleansing thing at home, etc.
 

Trotsky

Mr.J said:
But we never actually did it, IIRC. Not that we didn't do plenty of other terrible stuff in the Phillippines and similar places...
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We didn't take hostages in the Second World War, but I want to say it was one of the things that got a shitload of Wehrmacht generals off easy in the Nuremberg Trials. It got dropped from the manual shortly thereafter.

Saladan said:
too add to the whole CSA not even being all the great to it's non black populations, wasn't one reason Featherston got so much support among the nation's lower and middle class whites was because honestly while you could certainly vote in the CSA (if you were a white male) you still had little actual power or authority when it came to policy matters as well as your vote not really counting much in comparison to the Rich planter class' vote? And though its been ages since I last read any of the TL, Jeb Stuart II's (I think it was him) conversation with Jake lead me to believe the CSA was not only racist but also classist as well though unofficially in that case.
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Yes, populism carried Featherston a long ways away. Of course, once in government he just replaced the old Whig aristocratic establishment with one consisting of his own followers. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 

EdM

I voted Germeny and I don't know why. :( Maybe I read "Great War" as "Second Great War" 'coz I thought Germany liberalized between them.

Can I have my vote back? :eek: After reading all the posts, i'd have to say "nobody."
 

Trotsky

EdM said:
I voted Germeny and I don't know why. :( Maybe I read "Great War" as "Second Great War" 'coz I thought Germany liberalized between them.

Can I have my vote back? :eek: After reading all the posts, i'd have to say "nobody."
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If Germany won the Great War it wouldn't have liberalized.
 

JSmith

Banned
Trotsky said:
Yes, populism carried Featherston a long ways away. Of course, once in government he just replaced the old Whig aristocratic establishment with one consisting of his own followers. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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A certainly not freer than the United States despites all the Freedomites.
 

JSmith

Banned
The Kiat said:
Given all the rationing, beaurocracy and government intrusion in the USA, I'd have to say the CSA is actually the freest.... as long as you're a white man. There's always a catch.
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Surely an important component of freedom is how large a percentage of the population it is extended to? Also it has to be repeated that white men in the CSA were less free if they were not wealthy/middle income and not a Whig/Freedomite-depending on when.
 
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