TL-191: Filling the Gaps
- Thread starter Craigo
- Start date
Bismarck Class Battleship "Friedrich Wilhelm", Flagship of the mighty German Imperial Fleet Task Force Krake
A recognition drawing of Friedrich Wilhelm prepared by the Confederate Navy
Description / Specifications
Displacement: 52,600 t (51,800 long tons) full load
Length: 251 m (823 ft 6 in) overall
Beam: 36 m (118 ft 1 in)
Draft: 9.30 m (30 ft 6 in) standard
Propulsion: 3 × geared steam turbines; 3 × screw propellers
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph)
Range: 8,870 nmi (16,430 km; 10,210 mi) at 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph)
Complement: 103 officers, 1,962 enlisted men
Sensors and processing systems: FuMO 23
Armament:
- As built:
- 8 × 38 cm (15 in) SK C/34 (4 × 2)
- 12 × 15 cm (5.9 in) L/55 (6 × 2)
- 16 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK C/33 (8 × 2)
- 16 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) SK C/30 (8 × 2)
- 12 × 2 cm (0.79 in) FlaK 30 (12 × 1)
- 58 × 2 cm FlaK 30
- 8 × 53.3 cm (21 in) torpedo tubes
- Belt: 320 mm (13 in)
- Turrets: 360 mm (14 in)
- Main deck: 100 to 120 mm (3.9 to 4.7 in)
- Upper deck: 50 mm (2 in)
Aviation facilities: 1 double-ended catapult
Background:
The "Fredrich Wilhelm", along with several other Bismarck classes, was a series of Battleships designed in the mid-1930s by the German Imperial Fleet command as a potential counter to the growing British and French Navy in between the great wars. While many nations around the world originally signed to the Hamburg treaty of restricting that governed battleship construction in the interwar period. Though when several nations left the treaty obligations in their construction of battleships, the Germans quickly ditched it themselves in their construction. The Friedrich Wilhelm
displaced 42,900 t (42,200 long tons) as built and 52,600 t (51,800 long tons) fully loaded, with a length of 251 m (823 ft 6 in), a beam of 36 m (118 ft 1 in) and a maximum draft of 10.60 m (34 ft 9 in).[c]Her standard crew numbered 103 officers and 1,962 enlisted men; during the war, this was increased to 108 officers and 2,500 men. She was powered by three Brown, Boveri & Cie geared steam turbines, each driving a screw propeller, with steam provided by twelve oil-fired Wagner superheated water-tube boilers. Her propulsion system developed a total of 163,023 PS (160,793 shp; 119,903 kW) and yielded a maximum speed of 30.8 knots (57.0 km/h; 35.4 mph) on speed trials.[7]
She was armed with eight 38 cm SK C/34 L/52 guns arranged in four twin gun turrets: two superfiringturrets forward—Anton and Bruno—and two aft—Caesar and Dora.[d] Her secondary armament consisted of twelve 15 cm L/55 guns, sixteen 10.5 cm L/65 and sixteen 3.7 cm (1.5 in) L/83, and initially twelve 2 cm (0.79 in) C/30 anti-aircraft guns. The number of 2 cm guns was eventually increased to 58. After 1942, eight 53.3 cm (21 in) above-water torpedo tubes were installed in two quadruple mounts, one mount on each side of the ship.[2]
As built, Friedrich Willhelm was equipped with Model 23 search radars[e] mounted on the forward, foretop, and rear rangefinders. These were later replaced with Model 27 and then Model 26 radars, which had a larger antenna array. A Model 30 radar, known as the Hohentwiel, was mounted in 1944 in her topmast, and a Model 213 Würzburg fire-control radar was added on her stern 10.5 cm (4.1 in) Flak rangefinders.[10]
The ship's main belt was 320 mm (13 in) thick and was covered by a pair of upper and main armored decks that were 50 mm (2 in) and 100 to 120 mm (3.9 to 4.7 in) thick, respectively. The 38 cm turrets were protected by 360 mm (14 in) thick faces and 220 mm (8.7 in) thick sides.
Service History- Great War
When the Second Great War broke out in Europe in June of that year when Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany died and the Entente states of Britain, France, and Russia, hoping to capitalize on the confusion of the ensuing change in the German government and regain territory, money, and prestige lost in the Great War, 24 years earlier, launched a series of coordinated assaults on Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Netherlands. The fleet was mobilized in Hamburg and sent out into the Atlantic Ocean to contest the British and French Navy, but a much smaller navy was sent was held back with a different goal in mind. The debacle of the British Invasion of Norway, thus driving the nation into Germany's camps and access to their ports helped with phase one of the plan for the operation. The "Friedrich Wilhelm", along with a few other Bismarck class vessels with a couple of destroyers, cruisers, and one aircraft carrier the Rhein were able to use Norway ports and resources to stockpile fuel before making the trek across the Atlantic to rendezvous with an American Navy Taskforce. The group was labeled Taskforce Krake, where the task force's objective was to raid Entente trading in the Atlantic to damage their war effort. While the journey across the Atlantic was not easy, a small skirmish happened between a British patrol fleet near the Faroe-Iceland Rise of the Atlantic Ocean. A few ships were damaged but all of it was repairable when they managed to link up with the American Task Force and were led toward Boston Port to undergo repairs. While repairs were delayed by two months by Confederate Bombing attacks and directing valuable resources toward the Eastern Front against the Confederate forces dragged the repair process, by December of 1941, all preparations were complete before the German Task Force was released. The main objective was to disrupt Entente trading networks across the Atlantic Ocean while forcing the Entente nations to respond and take away key naval assets to support the hunt. The goal was relatively mixed in its outcome. While there was trade between the World World and European nations, the Entente wised up and diversified their trade important and built up some of their colonies, resulting in the trade interdiction being less effective. The second issue was the Entente nations did not pull any of their ships away to deal with them, instead of focusing to crush the Central Power navies quickly instead, which eventually became reality in 1942 a major sea battle was fought between the Royal Navy and German High Seas Fleet where the High Seas Fleet was defeated decisively. With the main fleet now regulated in protecting the German coast from any attempted Entente landings and denying any coastal bombardment, Task Force Krake was given a new objective in the region. Partake in American naval operations in the region, especially with the oncoming British fleet into the western Atlantic to challenge the US Navy for supremacy in the area. Most of the heavier assets of the Task Force were taken to partake in the battle, with most of the destroyers and few cruisers regulated to raiding the coast of the Confederacy for the duration of the conflict. The titanic battle between the two navies, called the Battle of Bermuda, drew in many from both sides into conflict and Task Force Krake made up the composition. The "Friedrich Wilhelm" was the flagship of the German composition of the American Naval Forces. William Frederick "Bull" Halsey Jr., who was in charge of the upcoming battle, held the fleet in reserve along with other American Warships, with the exception being the Rhein which was grouped up with the available American Aircraft carrier group, as a part of Halsey's overall strategy. The group was stationed 100 klicks away when the two navies clashed, with the frequent chattering from the radio from the Americans detailing what the situation was happening. The battle raged for a complete day and a half, with the remainder of the battle raging on the chatter from the radio and the distant sounds of cannons. When the sun rose on the next day, and the clock struck around 11:47, Halsey executed the rest of the plan by calling the rest of the fleet. Both sides were severely mauled in the fighting and tired. The introduction of fresh pristine warships into the battle would surely break the resolve of the British fleet. A flanking maneuver was executed, with the reinforcements attacking the right flank of the British fleet with the Wilhelm Friedrich leading the charge. She opened her guns on a wounded Cruiser of the HMS Thomas, hitting the waterline and prompting her to sink below the depths. The British attack group scattered as the reinforcements plunged themselves deeper into the formation, whatever stragglers couldn't escape fast enough were shot up until they looked like holed cheese. While the maneuver was successful, the crew of the "Friedrich Wilhelm" was not exactly prepared for the sister ship the "Ludwig" being dealt with harshly by a Battleship from the British. As the sister ship "Maximilian" moved toward the "Ludwig", the crew of the "Friedrich Wilhelm" set their targets on the vessel that retaliated against them. The HMS Warspite, affectionately called the "Grand Old Lady" by the Entente, and "Grey Old Hag" by the Central Powers wanted nothing better than to sink her. With the shocking appearance of a pristine held back British Battleship, the scattering British Fleet, ones that could still fight, rallied to draw as much of the reinforcement's attention to allow their shipmates the chance to survive and deal some pain to them. The german flagship immediately turned toward the Warspite and unleashed a full broadside against her, with the British Vessel responding back in kind. The "Friedrich Wilhelm" guns were able to fire faster, but the Warspite was larger and dealt more damage. The duel between the two mighty ships was like a clash between two giants as each respective ship fought to deal mortal wounds to the other. The only ace up the sleeve for the German Battleship was the installed torpedo tubes she had on board, so when the range came close enough she unleashed her payload against the HMS Warspite. Some of them struck against the vessel, and she fired another broadside in anger against the "Friedrich Wilhelm." By the time the duel between the two vessels was over, and the rest of the British Fleet retreated from the battle both ships were severely mauled. While they were able to limp back to their respective port, the "Warspite" was in no position to do so as she was surrounded by the American fleet. Though her sacrifice was not in vain, she formally surrendered and was tugged back to US Ports, along with "Friedrich Wilhelm. The "Friedrich Wilhelm" would be knocked out of commission for the rest of 1942 and 1943 undergoing repairs, being put back into action during the early years of 1944 bombarding the Confederacy shore along with Task Force Krake and the American Navy. When the war ended she returned back home to Germany and to this day remained as a museum ship in the port of Hamburg.
(Man I need to become better at writing these plot things but hey practice makes perfect. Tried to do a more fanon thing in the history of a ship too. Might not be the best but gotta start something.)
That list generally seems a bit weird to me. No Socialists before 1929? Democrats and Republicans winning when Sinclair probably carried the state? Capone (or an expy of him) being there at all? It could probably use redoing.
@Hexcron
Out of curiosity how do you think politics would end up developing in the occupied former Confederacy and to what extent do you think the Population Reductions will become the former country's "Great Shame" among Southerners born post-war compared to how things ended up developing in Germany in OTL?
Out of curiosity how do you think politics would end up developing in the occupied former Confederacy and to what extent do you think the Population Reductions will become the former country's "Great Shame" among Southerners born post-war compared to how things ended up developing in Germany in OTL?
I don’t really know what the south would look like politically after the war, and I’ve kinda given up on predicting things past 1945 after the mess that was my last attempt at that. The only thing I really have to say is that I strongly disagree with After the End’s take that the South becomes a conservative Democratic bastion; if reconstruction fails, the South will never vote for a party that advocates so strongly for the Union, and if it succeeds Southern conservatism will be swept away along with the rest of the former Confederacy’s identity, resulting in a region where Socialists can make significant inroads.
As for the Destruction, I think that regardless of whether or not the South regains it’s independence, it will be condemned by the Southern populace, but circumstances will dictate whether it tars the Confederacy as a whole, or if Confederate restoration efforts succeed in making it a crime of the Freedom Party alone.
Ggddaano
Banned
I think that Reconstruction succeeds in this timeline no matter what. The crimes of the Freedom Party are just too blatant to be ignored and autonomy would not be given back to the South after that.
bguy
Donor
US Senate Elections from 1916-1944
So I was looking over your Senate results, and I have a few questions.
In regards to the 1924 elections, where you have the Socialists winning 8 senate seats, is that maybe too big a swing to the Socialists? By my calculations, after that election going from your results the Senate makeup would b e 21 Democrats, 9 Republicans, and 38 Socialists. That gives the Socialists a huge senate majority which seems inconsistent with the novels where the Democrats were able to successfully filibuster major Socialist legislation throughout the '20s and '30s.
Likewise as to the 1938 elections where you have the Democrats losing 11 seats. Those are catastrophic losses. (If I calculated correctly the Democrats only have 14 seats afterwards which is barely more than the Republicans have.) Why did you have the Democrats get crushed that badly that year?
And finally as to 1942, it looks like you have the Socialists gaining seats that year, but do you think that would happen? I would think the public would largely blame the Socialists for the Richmond Agreement and the country getting whacked so hard by Operation Blackbeard and would take it out on the Socialists at the polls that year.
Other than those questions though I thought it looked pretty solid.
My dear fellows, I wanted to pop in and apologise for my long 'radio silence', as well as compliment those of you who have been keeping FILLING THE GAPS a going concern: Keep Well and please keep up the Good Work!
(Also, Hexcron, I specifically wanted to compliment you on that vision of C. Burton Mitchel III - he's got a slightly too-good-to-be-true 'Picture Perfect President' feel which makes me think of Warren G. Harding: I tend to imagine Mitchel as being a more successful politician, than Warren G., but one suspects his Administration would be nearly as crooked, not least due to the amount of wheeling-dealing required for the Establishment to turn a blind eye to his second term*).
*I've gone back and forth on my characterisation of the man a little, but I tend to see him as a decent politician who got into the habit of thinking himself was a Great Man and (disastrously) managed to convince the Knowing Ones that he was indispensable (by hook & by crook) just in time for the prestige of the Whig Party to go up in flames along with the Confederate economy: all this bolstered by his hatred of the more extreme elements in Confederate politics and a fear of drastic change.
(Also, Hexcron, I specifically wanted to compliment you on that vision of C. Burton Mitchel III - he's got a slightly too-good-to-be-true 'Picture Perfect President' feel which makes me think of Warren G. Harding: I tend to imagine Mitchel as being a more successful politician, than Warren G., but one suspects his Administration would be nearly as crooked, not least due to the amount of wheeling-dealing required for the Establishment to turn a blind eye to his second term*).
*I've gone back and forth on my characterisation of the man a little, but I tend to see him as a decent politician who got into the habit of thinking himself was a Great Man and (disastrously) managed to convince the Knowing Ones that he was indispensable (by hook & by crook) just in time for the prestige of the Whig Party to go up in flames along with the Confederate economy: all this bolstered by his hatred of the more extreme elements in Confederate politics and a fear of drastic change.
Since the requirements for cloture used to be higher, the Dems and Reps can still hold up Socialist legislation with only 1/3 of the Senate. Sinclair's coattails are strong here due to his landslide victory, and 1924 needs to have as many Socialist gains as it does so the Socialists can still feasibly retain enough Senate seats through incumbency in 1930 to have a shot at the Senate in 1934, when they canonically win.
1938 is less an instance of a wider "Red Wave", than it is a case of several different localised red waves making inroads on a senate map where the Democrats have no room to make gains (from 1932). In the east, seats in NY, PA, and IL revert to the Socialists due to Smith's relative popularity at this point, KS goes red for plot reasons (I need Browder to be a senator in the mod), the mountain states flip red because of the Mormon vote, and the west coast flips because Chester Martin says they canonically do. Not sure about your counting here, since by my estimate the Dems still have 20 seats after this, while the Reps has only 6. The Socialists still don't have >2/3 of the Senate.
I have 1938 and 1942 go as red as they do because in 1944 the Socialists manage to keep their Senate majority despite Dewey's win. I figure the strongest anger towards the Richmond Agreement will probably subside while the war is going on, in the immediate aftermath of Smith's death, while there's a "rally 'round the flag" effect. I would have liked to do things like give IL in 1942 to the Democrats, but I can't really afford to if the Socialists are to still win the Senate in '44.
Reconstruction is less a question of whether the US will ever willingly let up on the South, and more a question of whether the Confederate national identity will ever be destroyed and subsumed. Given how strongly four years of Confederate independence impacted the South's identity, what does 80 years do?
Do you have any thoughts on the big US politics speculation post I made earlier?
Ggddaano
Banned
There will still be regional differences, to be sure, but the blatant neo-Confederate imagery that is so prevalent even in 2023 OTL will not be permitted to exist. Same as how you can't even make the Heil Hitler/Bellamy salute in OTL Germany w/o a fine or possible jail time.
Ggddaano
Banned
also, sidebar, did HT ever specify what the Freedom Party salute looked like? Is it the Bellamy Salute or something radically different?
bguy
Donor
That’s true but the thing about the filibuster is it will only last as long as the majority in the Senate is willing to tolerate it because it doesn’t take a 2/3 vote to abolish the filibuster. And it really doesn’t make sense that the Socialists would tolerate the filibuster being used to block their legislative agenda for 20 years when they held the presidency and Congress for most of that time. The political history of the US in TL-191 only makes sense if we assume the Socialist “majority” in the Senate was dependent on Republicans (and maybe a handful of conservative Socialists) who would not agree to abolish the filibuster and that in turn means the Socialist numbers can’t have been too great in the Senate because if their caucus gets too big it won’t need the support of the Republicans and the conservative Socialists.
D’oh! Not sure how I miscounted like that. Still while the book does mention the Socialists making gains in the 1938 election it doesn’t suggest it was anything like an 11 seat gain.
Also would their even be that much of a Mormon vote in the other mountain states? I would have thought the Mormon population would have been largely hounded out of those states after the Mormon uprising in the FGW.
I suppose though at least in OTL history there’s been little evidence of a rally around the flag effect during midterm elections in wartime. (The governing party got pasted in 1862 and 1942 and also performed poorly in 1950, 1966, and 2006). Still, your point about having to reconcile the results with the book result of the Socialists retaining the Senate after 1944 elections is valid.
I thought along those lines too, but ultimately the need to match up with what the books say in terms of majorities takes precedence. If I was rewriting TL-191 as a whole, I would do things quite differently, and make more use of what Turtledove says in the Great War trilogy in terms of Socialist party discipline. Its also mentioned that the Socialists may still have a working majority after 1930, which means I need to find the seats somewhere.
1944 kinda needs it for the Dems to not take the Senate. Considering how bad the map is for Dems I can accept it as a sort of "quiet landslide". It's also "only" an 8 seat net gain, once you account for Utah's seat being filled before the election, and the loss of Indiana to the Republicans.
Given that there are enough Mormons around to help cause riots in NYC in 1915, and do People-Bombings in Philly in the '40s, I'd expect there to still be a few scattered around the west.
1862 is probably the best comparison here, seeing as GWII is very different to any other modern war the US has fought. I'd have the Socialists do worse if I could, but again, 1944 really ties my hands here, and by November 1942 the Confederates are pretty much locked in place, so things aren't actively getting worse.
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I'm fairly sure it's mentioned that the US lodged a diplomatic protest against the Ottomans, but otherwise didn't take any significant action.
