TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[Batguy01]

What of TTL version of Sultan Mehmed VI, the Three Pashas (Mehmed Talaat, Ismail Enver, and Ahmed Cemal), and Mustafa Kemal?

Also IOTL Ottoman Empire prior to WWI the Sultan was a figurehead and the political power in the Empire was run by the Young Turks lead by the Three Pashas. I assume it would be the same ITTL prior to the FGW. Yet by 1981 with the coronation of Sultan Abdul Hamid III, the political power of the Sultan within the Ottoman Empire is absolute. Was there a coup or something that ended the political power of the Young Turks? (Think of the second question as a crossover with TL-191: After the End.)

 

[German Kaiser Wilhelm IV]

Republic of Quebec post when?

 

[AceOfSpades]

Where would Edward M. Almond be in the Confederate Army?

In OTL, he graduated VMI in 1915. If he survives the Great War, he'll probably throw his lot with the Freedom Party since his hometown was north of the Rappahannock.

 

[Kol]

Regards to Austria hungry I personally don't think that it should've annexed Serbia since it didn't even plan to OTL . they only plan to punish Serbia but not an annex it. humiliating peace for Serbia is more likely than the Austrian annexation of Serbia turtledove apparently thinks that was a option that Austria would've taken but it's unlikely altogether

 

[Lalli]

Regards to Austria hungry I personally don't think that it should've annexed Serbia since it didn't even plan to OTL . they only plan to punish Serbia but not an annex it. humiliating peace for Serbia is more likely than the Austrian annexation of Serbia turtledove apparently thinks that was a option that Austria would've taken but it's unlikely altogether

True. A-H didn't want more land in OTL when it had already enough of doing with its other ethnic groups. They didn't want such headache. But I think that Turtledove didn't realise that when he wrote books. Good example how badly AH writers can do their homneork.

And IMo it is bit unlikely that USA would had been able to re-annex CSA. It had already enough of digesting problems with Canada. And CSA had already been independent 80 years so there would had been quiet strong nationalist feelings. More plausible would had been some level of "Morgenthau Plan<". Perhaps annexing Upper South and making South Carolina "Blakc Republi" for survivors of the genocide. Rest of CSA would had allowed remain independent but de-armed and de-industrialised being under long occupation.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

Regards to Austria hungry I personally don't think that it should've annexed Serbia since it didn't even plan to OTL . they only plan to punish Serbia but not an annex it. humiliating peace for Serbia is more likely than the Austrian annexation of Serbia turtledove apparently thinks that was a option that Austria would've taken but it's unlikely altogether

IMO, I think they would've put a member of the House of Obrenovich back onto the throne or put in another noble family friendly to them.

 

[DeltaEnterprise252]

True. A-H didn't want more land in OTL when it had already enough of doing with its other ethnic groups. They didn't want such headache. But I think that Turtledove didn't realise that when he wrote books. Good example how badly AH writers can do their homneork.

And IMo it is bit unlikely that USA would had been able to re-annex CSA. It had already enough of digesting problems with Canada. And CSA had already been independent 80 years so there would had been quiet strong nationalist feelings. More plausible would had been some level of "Morgenthau Plan<". Perhaps annexing Upper South and making South Carolina "Blakc Republi" for survivors of the genocide. Rest of CSA would had allowed remain independent but de-armed and de-industrialised being under long occupation.

There weren't enough black survivors for a black republic. I mean if we were to compare the killings in the Turtledove books with OTL, it's far easier to identify someone who is black by just looking at them compared to someone who is Jewish. Then consider the restrictions on black people even before Featherson came to office. The conclusion a number of characters seem to draw in the final book is that to some extent the CSA is rotten to the core with everyone either explicit or implicitly behind Featherson and all he stands for. Given the previous wars annexation might seem the only logical way to prevent another war of revenge.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

There weren't enough black survivors for a black republic. I mean if we were to compare the killings in the Turtledove books with OTL, it's far easier to identify someone who is black by just looking at them compared to someone who is Jewish. Then consider the restrictions on black people even before Featherson came to office. The conclusion a number of characters seem to draw in the final book is that to some extent the CSA is rotten to the core with everyone either explicit or implicitly behind Featherson and all he stands for. Given the previous wars annexation might seem the only logical way to prevent another war of revenge.

In fairness, Nazi Germany IOTL had a lot more resources to spare to kill 6 million Jews, and an additional year, neither of which the CSA had. In fact 1944 was the year with the highest kill rates in the death camps due to sheer efficiency of the system. In 1944 in TL-191, the CSA would be in the same position that Germany was in OTL in 1945 if we’re being realistic. I’d wager there’s still a few million survivors from the Population Reduction so a Black Republic could be in one of three places: Chihuahua and Sonora (disconnected from the rest of the former CSA due to Texan independence), Louisiana and Arkansas (the only two states not to vote for Featherston in 1933 and undoubtedly suffered because of it) and Cuba (due to the high level of resistance against the Population Reduction).

As far as annexation into the USA goes, I don’t think it’s likely the US annexes all of the Confederacy when they also planned to annex the British and French Caribbean. I have no doubt the African-Caribbean majority population there would not want to be part of the same country as the former CSA. And then there’s holding down both the Confederacy and Canada through military force. The massive levels of resistance would cause costs of the American occupation to skyrocket. Hence I agree that annexing the upper South (Houston, Kentucky, and Seqouyah) plus Tennessee due to a likely high percentage of pro-Union anti-Freedomite people (and anti-Population Reduction by extension), particularly in the eastern half of the state. So annex those four states, grant Chihuahua/Sonora, Arkansas/Louisiana, and Cuba independence, and establish a Morgenthau Plan analogue for the rest of the CSA.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

IMO, I think they would've put a member of the House of Obrenovich back onto the throne or put in another noble family friendly to them.

I'm also inclined to agree with this statement. Probably would've happened if the latter two sets within TL-191 weren't an exercise in parallelism.

 

[RickyCrash]

At what point do you guys think Canadian resistance would burn itself out?

 

[PGSBHurricane]

At what point do you guys think Canadian resistance would burn itself out?

A lot sooner than Confederate resistance. I think the US will have a decision to make to annex either one or the other and not both.

 

[wilji1090]

A lot sooner than Confederate resistance. I think the US will have a decision to make to annex either one or the other and not both.

I think it's more likely that the USA will at least take Virginia and Tennessee and then spin the rest of the CSA as a puppet republic while gorging itself on that sweet Canadian maple syrup.

 

[vesica]

I recall that Tennesse was explicitly being mentioned to being readmitted to the Union by Senator Taft in 43 prior to his assassination. I think ultra long term the US plans on readmitting all of the former Confederacy, much like eventually Utah was readmitted, but this will likely take decades.

I imagine the Canadian provinces are something the US is eager to formally annex , and admit eventually if for no other reason then formally cement their power, and eventually to crush the Canadian identity and bring them firmly into the American fold and to relieve the needs for occupation forces in the north that are desperately needed in the former Confederacy.

I think the most likely candidates for admission first are the Maritime Provinces. They are explicitly not mentioned as having joined either of the Uprising and being entirely cut off from the rest of Occupied Canada and thus being almost entirely dependent on the United States and Quebec for trade it would lead to eventually knuckling under.

My head Canon has the Republic of Quebec annexing northern New Brunswick and most of the Acadian Coast, with southern New Brunswick and Nova Scotia being annexed and eventually admitted to the Union as the first States (Saint John and Halifax are both critical Ports and Halifax specifically is likely the most northern base for the US Navy and Marine Corps.

Labrador is probably given to Quebec while Newfoundland is kept as an "overseas" territory similar to the Sandwich Islands and Bermuda.

 

[Marklin]

So a random question that's probably already been asked regarding Europe:
Considering the lack of genocide (that we know of) in the European theater, sans the Pogroms in Russia, would this mean that Europe, particularly Central and Eastern Europe, would have a higher population by the present day compared to OTL?

 

[vesica]

So a random question that's probably already been asked regarding Europe:
Considering the lack of genocide (that we know of) in the European theater, sans the Pogroms in Russia, would this mean that Europe, particularly Central and Eastern Europe, would have a higher population by the present day compared to OTL?

That's a Fair assessment to make. The Russians deplorable tactics aside at continuing to rely on human eave tactics, the war in the East was, from the looks of it, relatively civil affair compared to IOTL, in addition to the fact that the Austro-Hungarian Empire remained an intact political entity (even if apparently the partisan activity was atrocious). So on the whole the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and even the Russian Empire are probably still quite population heavy with it being likely that the most populous nations in Europe go

Russia
Germany
Austria-Hungary

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

I tried to see if this had been discussed before, but couldn't find anything, so: anyone know what kind of place names would have come into being in Russian Alaska after 1867? I was thinking of an Etolingrad after A. A. Etolin somewhere, maybe even where Anchorage stands in real life.

 

[MaxGerke01]

So a random question that's probably already been asked regarding Europe:
Considering the lack of genocide (that we know of) in the European theater, sans the Pogroms in Russia, would this mean that Europe, particularly Central and Eastern Europe, would have a higher population by the present day compared to OTL?

I would think so just like Canada and the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii)likely do but from migration in those 2 cases.

 

[Marklin]

Just another musing, I wonder how controversial the superbombings are in TL 191. Seeing how controversial things like the Atomic bombings and even the bombing of Dresden seem to be these days.

 

[Pangur]

Just another musing, I wonder how controversial the superbombings are in TL 191. Seeing how controversial things like the Atomic bombings and even the bombing of Dresden seem to be these days.

I suspect that in US not all controversial at least for any generation born , following generations maybe n the why is that the existing generations seem quite hard-nosed about war

 

[vesica]

Just another musing, I wonder how controversial the superbombings are in TL 191. Seeing how controversial things like the Atomic bombings and even the bombing of Dresden seem to be these days.

Considering both the US and Germany extensively used them, probably not as controversial as it IOTL. It probably depends on how wide spread an environmental movement became after the war, how widespread Atomic/Nuclear energy became after as well for how acceptable it was. Unlike IOTL I doubt Germany and the US did any major arms race to gather as many as they could, so who can say.

My assumption... itll be like the Fallout Universe.. just as an accepted part of war and life.