TL-191: Filling the Gaps

I was talking about during the peace negotiations and the possible impact it could have on the negotiations and on the final peace treaty. It seems vanishingly unlikely that either the Union or the Confederacy would withdraw from occupied territory while treaty negotiations are still on going.
They withdrew after the treaty was signed. It's not strange; the British withdrew from US territory before the Treaty of Paris was ratified.
 
These are maps I drew for the Second Great War, based off of what I've read in the books and previous posts. The first shows the farthest Confederate advances at the height of Operation Coalscuttle, while the second shows the situation at wars end.

second_great_war__farthest_confederate_advances__by_freedim-db4nlw5.jpg

second_great_war__situation_at_wars_end__by_freedim-db4no7c.jpg
 
These are maps I drew for the Second Great War, based off of what I've read in the books and previous posts. The first shows the farthest Confederate advances at the height of Operation Coalscuttle, while the second shows the situation at wars end.

second_great_war__farthest_confederate_advances__by_freedim-db4nlw5.jpg

second_great_war__situation_at_wars_end__by_freedim-db4no7c.jpg
That's a pretty good depiction of how it looked during and after the Second Great War.
 
Hey guys. Sorry for the long wait on the next installment of "Army Group East". Just got a new job which has sucked up all my time. I hope to have the next part out in the next week or so.
 
Can someone do a page on the Battle of Richmond? I would ask if someone could do a page for the Battle of Pittsburgh, but the page for Third Army honestly does that itself.
 
It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, so I thought I'd make another one of my leader lists.

List of Governors of New Mexico

1. William C. McDonald (Democratic) (1912-1914)
2. George W.P. Hunt (Democratic) (1914-1916)
3. Ezequiel Cabeza De Baca (Democratic) (1916-1917) †

4. Thomas Edward Campbell (Democratic) (1917-1919)

5. George W.P. Hunt (Democratic) (1919-1921)
6. Washington Ellsworth Lindsey (Democratic) (1921-1923)
7. Octaviano Ambrosio Larrazolo (Democratic) (1923-1925)
8. Merritt C. Mechem (Democratic) (1925-1927)
9. James F. Hinkle (Democratic) (1927-1929)

10. Richard C. Dillon (Socialist) (1929-1931)
11. Arthur T. Hannett (Democratic) (1931-1933)
12. Arthur Seligman (Democratic) (1933-1935)
13. Andrew W. Hockenhull (Socialist) (1935-1937)
14. Clyde K. Tingley (Socialist) (1937-1939)
15. John J. Dempsey (Democratic) (1939-1941)

16. Sidney Preston Osborn (Socialist) (1941-1945)

17. Thomas J. Mabry (Democratic) (1945- )

† = Died in Office
 
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List of Governors of Washington

1. Elisha P. Ferry (Democratic) (1889-1893)
2. John McGraw (Democratic) (1893-1897)
3. John Rankin Rogers (Socialist) (1897-1901)

4. Thurston Daniels (Socialist) (1901-1903)
5. Henry McBride (Democratic) (1903-1907)
6. Albert E. Mead (Democratic) (1907-1909)
7. Samuel G. Cosgrove (Democratic) (1909) †

8. Marion E. Hay (Democratic) (1909-1911)
9. Ernest Lister (Socialist) (1911-1915)
10. Louis Folwell Hart (Democratic) (1915-1919)
11. Roland H. Hartley (Democratic) (1919-1927)
12. Clarence D. Martin (Democratic) (1927-1935)
13. Monrad C. Wallgren (Democratic) (1935-1943)
14. Arthur B. Langlie (Democratic) (1943-)


† = Died in Office
 
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Can someone do a page on the Battle of Richmond? I would ask if someone could do a page for the Battle of Pittsburgh, but the page for Third Army honestly does that itself.

I'll try to cover parts of the battle in the "Army Group East" piece I'm writing..........if I ever find the time to finish it.
 
Belated happy Remembrance Day. I will have Remembeance Day gift by the end of the week.

Battle of Richmond
It can't be as big as Berlin, Obviously. It's a smaller city, so probably more like the OTL battle of Richmond. By the time the US reached Richmond it had suffered heavy aerial bombing, a ghetto riot, an attempted Freedom Party Stalwart and a military coup.

Featherston chose to abandon his capitol unlike Hitler. There are probably a few Freedom Party guard fanatics that the US Army has to clear but the bulk of the Freedom Party guard will retreat to protect Featherston. Either way the US Army is expending what ever it needs to crush any confederate resistance. The US is in a much better position to firebomb Richmond to the ground as aposed to the CS airforce in Pittsburgh
 
Belated happy Remembrance Day. I will have Remembeance Day gift by the end of the week.

Battle of Richmond
It can't be as big as Berlin, Obviously. It's a smaller city, so probably more like the OTL battle of Richmond. By the time the US reached Richmond it had suffered heavy aerial bombing, a ghetto riot, an attempted Freedom Party Stalwart and a military coup.

Featherston chose to abandon his capitol unlike Hitler. There are probably a few Freedom Party guard fanatics that the US Army has to clear but the bulk of the Freedom Party guard will retreat to protect Featherston. Either way the US Army is expending what ever it needs to crush any confederate resistance. The US is in a much better position to firebomb Richmond to the ground as aposed to the CS airforce in Pittsburgh
Keep in mind this is a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. It's not unlikely that over the course of 80 years the Confederates built up the city to resemble a national capital. And the battle'd certainly be as symbolic as Berlin. I'd imagine the Confederates fortified it by taking advantage of the numerous bombed out sections of the city. I see Hank Coomer filling the role of Helmuth Weidling, who commanded Berlin's defence.
 
Just wanted to drop in and say that I'm impressed this is still going. I haven't read the last - thirty, fifty...holy shit, seventy pages? - but appreciate everyone who's contributed and commented. Thanks for keeping it alive!
 
Great to hear from Craigo!!! We are all just fan-fiction to his fan-fiction.

Keep in mind this is a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War. It's not unlikely that over the course of 80 years the Confederates built up the city to resemble a national capital. And the battle'd certainly be as symbolic as Berlin. I'd imagine the Confederates fortified it by taking advantage of the numerous bombed out sections of the city. I see Hank Coomer filling the role of Helmuth Weidling, who commanded Berlin's defence.

So this is the underlying question how big was Richmond at the start of GW2?

In 1940 OTL Richmond was 193,042.
In 1940 OTL Berlin was 4,338,756.
Obviously Tl-191 Richmond was a very different place than OTL's Richmond. it's a major national industrial center, government hub, financial center ( remember Anne Colleton routinely refers to the Richmond Bourse) and military center. Still I doubt it's population was an where near as large as 4 million. I can imagine Richmond growing to 1 perhaps 2 million by the outbreak of the Second Great War. That would be roughly the size of OTL Philadelphia in that period.

That capture of Richmond would still make it a huge battle. Still i do not believe it would be as big as the OTL Battle of Berlin. OTL Battle Berlin was an intentionally apocalyptic final stand and arguably the largest Battle in the history of the world. Richmond defenses more than likely was designed to hurt the US as badly as possible but the Confederacy was still planning to continue fighting on after its loss. The Nazis obviously weren't.
 
Now that is a terrible, Terrible dilemma to be afflicted with!:cool:

After Craigo himself posted his commendations it would have seemed entirely churlish not to pop in and Thank Him in turn for providing not only the spark but the fuel which has kept us weaving away adding some new embroidery to the Tapestry Doctor Turtledove gave form to in the first place (and hopefully enriching Timeline-191 in the process); so Thank You most kindly Craigo and may your publications flourish wheresoever they might be sold!

Also, Best Wishes to all the rest of you good Fellow Creators; I have been absent an unconscionably long time, but fear that I haven't anything worth posting to begin making amends for that long absence. I might just have to work on doing something about that, but would prefer not to make any promises I may not be able to keep at this moment in time.:)
 
Confederate Submersible Program

The Confederate Submersible Service grew out of the realization that the Confederate Navy could never hope to defeat the U.S. and it was becoming increasingly unlikely the Royal Navy would be coming to its rescue. Beginning in 1904 the Confederate Naval Staff began investing in weapons it believed would negate the U.S. Navy’s overwhelming superiority. While originally disdained as ungentlemanly, some forward thinking officers such as lieutenant Commander Chester W. Nimtiz came to see the submersible as the weapon of the future.

The submersible had a long history in North America with experimentation in both the War of Independence and War of Secession. The modern submersibles grew out of the research of John Phillip Holland an Irish born American inventor who dream of creating warships to sink the Royal Navy and free his native Ireland. The first modern submersible was launched on 17 May 1897 at Navy Lt. Lewis Nixon's Crescent Shipyard in Elizabeth, New Jersey, the Holland VI was purchased by the United States Navy on 11 April 1900, becoming the United States Navy's first commissioned submarine and renamed USS Holland. Mr. Holland sold his designs to the Electric boat company in 1901. The success of Holland VI created a demand for follow-up models (A-class or Plunger class) that began with the prototype submersible Fulton built at Electric Boat (EB) in New London Connecticut. By law the company was not allowed to sell military technology to Britain, France or the Confederacy. Britain’s First Lord of the Admiralty Fischer, an early proponent of the submersible, convinced the Russian Empire to purchase a Class A-Boat from the Electric Boat Company. The first British Model Submersible was completed at the Vicker’s shipyard. Through the spread of this technology over 500 submersibles would be active in over 17 Navies.

With word reaching the Confederate Naval Staff that a new class of Battleship being constructed in Britain, that was likely to accelerate the Naval Arms Race. The Confederate Congress authorized the purchase of four submersibles from Britain. By 1906 the Confederate Congress ordered an additional 20 boats to be built entirely in the C.S.A. The winner was Hampton Roads Shipyard, in Hampton Va. Named after the famous battle between the Ironclads USS Monitor and CSS Virginia. It was there that the first homemade design the cuttlefish class was created. (This established the convention of naming submersibles after fish and other aquatic predators). Over the next 8 years new shipyards would be constructed in Wilmington, Cape Fear, Charleston and Habana.

1914
By 1914 the Confederate submersible service had 65 boats active or under construction. More than the 62 French, 58 Russian, 55 German, 40 US and only smaller than the Royal Navy, which stood at 77 boats. Thanks to close British Confederate cooperation on naval technology, the most common Confederate boat snapping turtle class comparable to the British E- class. While the Confederate Submersible service was highly regarded throughout the worlds Navies. At home it was often considered beneath the more aristocratic officers. It quickly became a ladder of promotion for capable officers from impoverished backgrounds and as result it was led by a highly capable and innovative officer corp.

In 1914 the submersible’s chief advantage was to submerge; surface ships had no means to detect a submarine underwater, and no means to attack even if they could, while in the torpedo the submersible had a weapon that could sink an armored warship with one shot. Its disadvantages were less obvious, but became apparent during the campaign. While submerged the submersible was virtually blind and immobile; boats of this era had limited underwater speed and endurance, so needed to be in position before an attack took place, while even on the surface their speed (around 15 knots) was less than the cruising speed of most warships and two thirds that of the most modern dreadnought. Few in the High Command could see their utilities, especially when fighting with the Army for the Confederacies limited industrial resources.

At the outbreak of the war the Submersible primary mission was to target enemy surface warships and act as scouts. Through out the summer and fall of 1914 Submersibles were tasked with screening fleet movements, entering Yankee waters to track enemy ships and patrolling Confederate waters to prevent surprise attacks. This role met with limited success, because of their slow speed submersibles had to hide and water for their prey. Using these tactics the C.S. Navy submersibles were able to sink two destroyers and two aged armored cruiser, at the cost of six submersibles. Because of these poor results the high command seriously restricted their employment and many were questioning whether they were worth the investment. They did however prove their worth as a defensive weapon when in August 18th two submersibles sunk two armored cruisers sent to raid the Virginia coast. For the next two months submersibles were deployed primarily in a defensive and screening role.

All of this changed in November 1914 when the CSS Sand Shark cornered four U.S. civilian ships and intimidated them into surrender with its deck guns and torpedoes near Acapulco Mexico. The Pacific theater was ideal for the use of submersibles against merchant ships. The Confederate surface fleet operating out of Guaymas was small and unlike in the Atlantic the US continued to have substantial trade with South American nations. From November 1914 to March 1915 the C.S. submersible fleet captured or destroyed thirty-two U.S. or neutral merchantmen.

1915

By early 1915 it was clear that if the High Command wanted to seriously commerce raiding commerce operations similar to those in the Pacific it needed a submersible with a faster surface cruising speed and 4 torpedo tubes. Their answer was the Hornshark class, based on the British H-class launched in May 1915. Over the summer of 1915 the Hornshark’s longer range and speed allowed them to harass US shipping as far north as the Grand Banks and Canadian Maritimes. During this periods the confederate submersibles like most other nations attempted to minimize civilian causalities as much as possible. They primarily relied on the threat of force and intimidation to force civilian vessels to surrender. The U.S. responded by cabling their own submersibles to neutral ships. After the US sunk three CS submersibles by this method Confederates stopped surfacing or giving warning before firing their torpedoes.

The most successful of the Hornshark class submersibles was the CSS Bonefish commanded by Captain Roger Kimball. In a daring raid, the CSS Bonefish infiltrated the subnets protecting the entrance to the Chesapeake. The CSS Bonefish sunk the US coastal defense battleship USS Bonhomme Richard.

By the end of 1915 the Confederate States launched 140 Submersibles, however 42 had been lost. Including seven submersibles that were destroyed by Marxist guerrillas when they were converted in gunboats during the red uprising. Defensive measures, such as arming merchant ships, and advising them to either run, or turn towards the U-boat in order to ram, or force it to submerge, were the most effective. From arming ships for self-defence, the next step was arming ships for the purpose of engaging the submersibles in gun battles. The U.S. also began flying aerial patrols, these included US dirigibles patrols. The U.S. constructed 8 of these vessels and one actually successfully destroyed a submersible with a bomb dropped in 1916. The most effective counter measure introduced by the US Navy was the depth charge, perfected by the Edison lab in April 1915 and equipped on most surface vessels by October 1915.

As a result of these early defeats the US began to ramp up the production of destroyer escorts. The US Fleet of the first Mahan administration had been almost entirely cruisers and battleships. The successes abroad with anti-torpedo boat destroyers escorts led the US to introduce destroyer escorts in 1901. The success of the 1914-1915 CS submersible campaign led to the ramp up of production destroyers by the end of the war 230 Wilkes and Clemson class destroyers were completed.

1916

With the war deadlocked on land and at sea the Confederate Naval High Command turned to submersibles. The Confederacy had 105 submarines ready for action on 1 February: 46 at Norfolk; 23 in Charleston; 23 at Habana; 10 in Guaymas; and 3 at Acapulco. Fresh construction ensured that, despite losses, at least 120 submarines would be available for the rest of 1916. The Confederacy adopted the German policy of unrestricted warfare declaring anything within 100 miles of the US coast and the sea lanes of the Pacific between the US and South America a warzone. The Confederacy developed the grid method where by a submersible was designated to patrol a certain box. They would then pass on information of convoys to adjacent patrol boxes.

Despite their high numbers and increased production, Confederate submersibles were unable to stop the US Navy’s summer offensive. By the end of August the US had neutralized the Royal Navy base at Bermuda and was putting pressure on British supply convoys in the South Atlantic. As a result the bulk of the submersible fleet was deployed southward to meet this threat.

The Confederate Navy again tried to use the submersibles to erode the US Navy’s numerical superiority; they staged operations to lure US battleships into a submersible trap. Because submersibles were much slower than the battle fleet, these operations required submersible patrol lines to be set up in advance; then the battle fleet maneuvered to draw the Battleships onto them. These did not prove successful. As a result the Naval High Command approved a dangerous raid into New York harbor, proposed by the Confederacy’s most successful submersible skipper Roger Kimball. The New York raid resulted the disabling of two US dreadnought battleships for the rest of the war.

In an attempt to draw more ships away from the South Atlantic offensive the autumn 1916, Confederate Submersibles attacked shipping bound for Canada on the other side of the St. Lawrence. Five submersibles operated in the St. Lawrence and Gulf of the St. Lawrence. Specially designed minelaying submersibles laid minefields in the throughout Canadian waters. These boats sank 34 ships before winter ice closed the area for operations.

Despite increased numbers the 1916 Confederate submersible campaign failed to halt the US offensive or change the balance of power in the Atlantic. Further the deteriorating condition of the Confederate Army meant that submersible construction had to be curtailed.

1917

Like the Confederate Army the Navy’s growth had peaked 1916 and was in decline by 1917. From a peak of 120 submersibles in operation in July, the submersible fleet had declined through attrition and cutbacks in production to only 78 operational boats. The Confederacy was also becoming increasingly strategically isolated. With Bermuda neutralized and the US Navy now operating in the Southern Atlantic, the Confederacy was finding itself isolated from Britain and France the way the U.S. had been from Germany. Throughout the first two years of the war the Confederacy had been apart of a web of trade with its European allies, trading oil and food for artillery ammunition and airplane engines. To bring in important engine designs and personnel the Conference constructed three submarine merchantmen to be used as a blockade runners.

The main objective of the Confederate Navy at the beginning of 1917 was to end US operations in the South Atlantic. The Confederacy managed to sink twelve destroyers. However the increasing numbers of US destroyers and the introduction of a convoy system, meant the confederacy suffered more irreplaceable losses.

To protect these convoys from C.S. Submersible attacks, the U.S. began operations against C.S. Submersible pens on the East Coast. The U.S. Navy targeted several important C.S. Submersible pens with marine raids and mine laying. The culmination of these raids was the subpen raid at Hampton Roads the most important Confederate submersible manufacturing and repair facility on the Atlantic Coast in May of 1917. This effectively shut down the Confederacy’s biggest submersible base on the Atlantic for the remainder of the war. This was followed up by a smaller raid on the Naval Yard at Willmington North Carolina.

The attacks on Hampton Roads and the destruction of twenty submersibles in one month led to May being called the “Black Month.” By July the Confederacy could only keep no more than fifty submersibles operational at any one time. By mid-1917, submersible losses had reached unacceptable levels, and the morale of their crews had drastically deteriorated; by the June it became clear that the Quadruple Entente could not win the war.

The Quadruple Alliance insisted that an essential precondition of any armistice was that the Confederacy surrender all her submarines, and on August 16th all Confederate submersibles were ordered to cease offensive operations and return to their home ports. The Quadruple Alliance stipulated that all seaworthy submarines were to be surrendered to them and those in shipyards be broken up.

The only one known incident of a Confederate Commander willfully disobeying the armistice order, was the infamous CSS Bonefish. While based out of Habana, Cuba, the Bonefish crossed paths with the destroyer USS Ericsson. The Ericsson's narrow escapes infuriated its commander Roger Kimball. After the Confederate States had capitulated, Kimball ordered the torpedoing of the USS Ericsson, which he sunk with all hands. From all reports he and his crew reveled in the thought of being war criminals. Only the boat's executive officer, Tom Brearley, objected to the attack. Brearly would later disclose the incident in an attempt to derail Kimball’s political career. Kimball would later be killed by a widow of one of the USS Ericsson ‘s crewmembers, but not before orchestrating his former XO’s death.

As apart of the Treaty of Arlington all Confederate Submersibles were interned at US Ports and destroyed. Most Submersible officers were dismissed from the Navy during treaty enforced downsizing. In a postwar naval assessment the Submersible strategy was heavily criticized. Though the Navy was able to deter attacks on the Confederacy by the US Navy until the last months of the war, the submersible fleet alone could not stop the US Navy. The Confederate Navy produced 253 Submersibles during the war and lost 177, a 50% attrition rate. With nearly all Submersible officers dismissed there was little defend the Confederate submersible program. The Confederacy did stay up to date on submersible technology through boats constructed in friendly Latin American countries and Great Britain. When the Confederacy began rearming in 1936, the CS Navy immediately began constructing submersibles. Though many of the lessons learned were not fully implemented. Though led by submersible ace Chester W. Nimitz , the Submersible arm in GW2 was not as large as it could have been. Without a forceful advocate in the Featherston administration, the submersible production was given a low priority.
 
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