TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[Reggie Bartlett]

Why thank you very kindly good sir for the compliment of being asked to sketch you - I hope that you'll help by offering corrections and suggestion in order to make sure the image is as true to life as possible, despite being somewhat hastily constructed to comply with your request.


Reginald 'Reggie' Bartlett

b. September 8th, 1888 VA.

d. July 21st 1925 VA.


- Reginald Bartlett is VERY English by descent and given his name this sentence can safely be described as stating the blatantly obvious; never-the-less it should be stated for the record that his Father's people arrived in Mobile Alabama in 1822, having set out from Sussex (at least according to my idea of things).


- His mother Elizabeth Bartlett nee Grey (b. 1858) of Bartlett VA was actually first introduced to his father Thomas 'Tiger Tom' Bartlett (b. 1849) on the grounds that their mutual friends found the coincidence too good to be allowed to pass unrecognised; luckily the two of them liked each other well enough to marry and so any mild humour at their expense was not begrudged.

It should be noted that they married somewhat later in life than was then the custom and Reggie was their only child (his mother's firstborn and her last, although thankfully he wasn't treated as a Nine Day Wonder).


- While his parents were quite consciously the model of Confederate respectability when Reggie knew them, I quite like the idea that (in contrast with Chester 'Chet' Martin our other Everyman) their pasts were more remarkable than their present state of modest domestic bliss would indicate.

I've gone back and forth on just what their respective careers were like before they settled down together, but at the very least Mr Bartlett was a drummer boy during the War of Secession and a travelling man with a fine turn of phrase after it (he may have been a drummer in more ways than one - rumours of 'Patent Medicine Tonics' and a glib line in sales patter perhaps?) by Sea and by Land, taking him "From Georgia to Virginia by the long way 'round and by way of odd jobs" as he put it.

Mrs Bartlett, by contrast, sought Fame and Fortune on the stage although she was never destined to find more than friendship, as well as a husband in the course of her modest career in supporting roles and on occasion as understudy.


-Mr Bartlett met the future Mrs Bartlett by virtue of his career as a reporter, having come to the career late in life but with a fine line in storytelling and particularly vivid descriptive prose style; his habitual beat tended to encompass the arts only in addition to and in competition for his attention with the sporting world, but his visits to the theatre multiplied exponentially after meeting Miss Elizabeth Grey.


- To say that young Reggie Bartlett was weaned on a fine supply of tall tales and endowed from birth with a certain quality of romantic imagination would be putting things rather mildly; his family, while never destined to enjoy freedom from the need to work was comfortably settled amidst the Confederate middle classes (although lower down the totem pole than some in that order).

Had Reggie been blessed with siblings this would probably have not remained the case for long.


- Reggie himself (named for his grandfather) never really knew family other than his father and mother or their friends; his mother's family were distant, his father's family even more so.

Unfortunately his Father and Mother would seem to have died fairly young (either before the Great War or during it), given that Reggie does not seem to be the sort of fellow who would neglect his parents in thought or deed if they were still around to be appreciated.

Still, he had friends and neighbours so he rubbed along pretty well; he grew to be a young man with charm and a considerable fund of good cheer, without very much in the way of worries or expectations. He served his hitch as a conscript without either disgracing or distinguishing himself and mostly regarded it as his civic duty (enlivened with the admiration a uniform elicits in a certain number of females) and proceeded to find employment as a drugstore assistant, quite convinced that the future would look after itself.

Then the Great War came - after that the Future needed all the help it could get and Reggie did his best; in the end his Luck was not as Good as his heart and that killed him.


- In my mind's eye Reggie Bartlett looks astonishingly like a younger Tom Hanks in a straw boater; the reasons for this should be obvious! (more SAVING PRIVATE RYAN than FORREST GUMP, actually, although both played a part in influencing me).

This is a pretty accurate summation.

Bartlett, in the novels, was described as having dirty-blonde hair, and being around 6 foot tall. He had an uncle Jasper who served during the Second Mexican War as a private.

Reginald also was a Richmond native, in "Blood and Iron" he even heckled a young Jake Featherston in a proto-Freedom Party rally.

 

[Tiro]

I knew there were plenty of good reasons to like dear old Reggie, but I didn't recall that particular one!

I am also very glad to see that you rather liked my little character sketch devoted to your namesake (I hope you'll forgive me if I imagine you as a distant relation, rather than the man himself since the latter take would make you an unusually well-mannered Zombie!).

With regard to my character sketches, I have to admit that they are intended more as suggestion than summation, but I will be very glad if they can be read as both! (concerning Uncle Jasper, I'm not quite sure where to place him on the Family tree - do you think he should be placed as an Uncle on the Mother's side or on the Father's? He might even be an honorary uncle, although that might be stretching my idea that Reggie is physically distant from his blood relations a bit TOO far).


Oddly enough while I was looking for a useful image to show Reggie as a lanky dishwater blond, I found an image that was nothing like what I was looking for but which might work pretty darned well for him in any case!

http://www.wimpolepc.co.uk/images/skinner_edward3.jpg

^Take a look and please let me know what you think; is this your old Relation?^

(Admittedly I don't really see the Confederate uniform c.The Great War as having a folding collar - instead I see it worn with a kepi above a stand-up collar, like a compromise between the uniforms of the Doughboys seen in our World War I with lingering elements of the French influence on the US Civil War uniforms).

 

[Tiro]

The most prominent British Whig politician was Charles James Fox, so...

You make an excellent point good sir, especially given Fox's expressed partiality for the cause of the American Revolutionaries (opportunistic but not necessarily insincere for all that); I also like the image of the Rad-Libs trying to sell themselves to the everyman by investing their public image with the trustworthy qualities of a good hound, but painting themselves as Running Dogs of the Capitalist System in the process (Which ties neatly into the running theme of Timeline-191 as we know it that the Rad-Libs just can't seem to win ANYTHING!).

It also seems appropriate that the Whigs be represented by a creature consistently hounded by their rivals (foreign and domestic) but frequently crafty enough to give them the slip … the fact that these two very distinctive-looking beasts aren't quite so different as they might like to think they are also seems appropriate.

 

[Tiro]

Nice biography on Burton Mithcell. Have not seen a Confederate profile in a few pages.

I am only sorry that I was unable to equal the likes of Mr President Mahan and Zoidberg by giving a character profile that spanned the entirety of the subject's life in some detail AND managed to include details fleshing out the political situation at the time beyond the obvious.

They are the masters and I am merely a journeyman word-smith!

In all honesty a good part of what drew me into posting on this thread was the masterful biography of Confederate President Semmes that gave a sketch of an abortive coup in Richmond that contained material substantial enough that novels have been built on weaker foundations, which in fact inspired me to imagine a novel focussing exclusively on the twists and turns in Confederate politics between the Wars (entitled AMERICAN EMPIRE: PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS, which I imagine as a tragedy forming a sort of Democratic Response to the Freedom Party focus in the series which likely makes their triumph seem more inevitable than it was ... now if only I knew how to finish it and sell Mr Turtledove on the prospect of a little franchising!).

 

[Tiro]

I was actually prompted to consider the fateful election of a Confederate President in 1927, which resulted in what amounts in the only legitimate re-election of a President in the entire History of the Confederacy and what follows are my thoughts on the matter.

Now I must state here clearly and in all honesty that my grasp of the niceties of American and mid-20th Century electioneering are hazy, but I think that I have the basic questions around which the election revolved and I hope that this will provide a sufficiently solid foundation for some mind better-educated on the topic than my own to flesh out at some future point.


THE '27 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION (CSA)

In a nutshell the election of 1927 was fought out as a duel between Reconstruction Vs Reform Vs Revanchism:-

- Revanchism, in the form of the Freedom Party/Redemption League Axis, having been repeatedly and VIVIDLY branded with the Mark of Cain by the Mitchel Administration from first to last* (to the point where at this point in time 'Simple Mitch' seemed to be Crying Wolf without a single howl by way of answer and justification), was resoundingly defeated but sadly not quite destroyed.

Featherston may well have been humiliated to such a degree the Redemption League would be given cause to wonder if they might not be better off looking for another political partner … assuming any other party could be found that was willing to take them on-strength (given their unfortunate association with the party of the Presidential Assassin), assuming also that the Freedom Party were unable to work out a way to keep them on-side.

As well as deprived by the Whiggish Reconstruction of the semi-hysterical fear which had been and would in future once again be the rocket fuel firing Featherston right up to the very pinnacle of Confederate Politics, which was in many ways the more telling blow.

- Unfortunately Reform, in the form of the Radical Liberals (quite possibly in the form of 'Wilson Whigs' as well, that faction newly come of age and doubtless looking to thank President Mitchel for his services as caretaker then pension him off into comfortable retirement) suffered an equally serious defeat; my guess would be that the Rad-Libs faltered based on their hopes of reconciliation with the United States and a new line in 'Separate yet Equal' rhetoric concerning their nice new crop of Black voters, added on to the ex-Mexicans (as a way of balancing out the loss of the Native American vote along with Sequoya).

I'd imagine that a policy of reaching out to New Money (primarily in the form of Big Business, not quite the Power it was in the USA but growing steadily) served them well enough at the time but would come back to bite them when the collapse turned such associations into a liability and not an asset - at least for a financial quarter or a season in the political life of the Confederacy.


- If there were Reform Whigs, then my guess is that they foundered on the rock of Reconstruction and muted in the interests of party solidarity (although doubtless their voices would be the loudest in condemnation of the man who cost them their chance of forming an Administration focussed on their policies and then faltered himself in the face of a crisis, along with all his own policies) after a faction of the Party declared its commitment to completing the task of bringing back the older, better days of the Pre-War Confederacy, no more change and disruption necessary Thank You Kindly.

Unfortunately the greybeards were able to move from minority into plurality (through the enchantment of the undecided) by putting forward President Mitchel - one of their own and at this point in time the living incarnation of Confederate Security - as their candidate and confounded the Wilson Whigs with the Supreme Court's expressed willingness to allow what amounted to a re-election in practice, if not in theory.

While Mitchel had been something between a figurehead and a battering ram to the Whig ship of state during his Administration (he was far from the brightest star in the Party, but he knew where he was going and he knew how to get there), seen as a placeholder who would allow The Whigs to set their House in order while they sought out a brighter guiding star to lead them into the '27 Election, he had distinguished himself beyond all expectations in the course of his Presidential career to date and had acquired considerable popularity in the course of his restoration of Law, Order and Equilibrium to the badly-battered Confederacy.

Against the Hero of the Hour (backed up by an entrenched opposition and all the tectonic potency of Confederate Conservatism) even the most dashing young progressives in his party could only struggle in vain; The Radical Liberals chances of beating out a proven quality with any of the unknown quantities put forward as their candidates that year were slim and in the end a significant Opportunity for peaceful reform in the Confederacy came to nothing.

Political Reform was by no means the panacea for all ills, but a more open-minded Whig Administration than that of President Mitchel MIGHT have been able to soften the impact of the Crash (or at least offered new ideas that would have offered some plausible alternative to the Freedom Party); a Radical Liberal Administration (unlikely but not unthinkable) would have left the wilder spirits of the Rad-Libs far less likely to talk in terms of Revolution (with the inevitable consequences for their chance of electoral success) than yet another defeat at the Presidential polls for their agenda of 'baby steps' reform.

In fact such a great leap forward as the election of a Radical Liberal President would have offered yet another plausible alternative to the Freedom Party (however popular or unpopular), much more so than a party that had never once been able to win out in a contest with the Establishment and its handmaidens the Whigs.

In short through his decision to accept the chance to transition from a merely remarkable figure to a truly Great Confederate President Burton Mitchel proceeded to prove that it would have been far better had he limited himself to a single term rather than gamble Double or Quits . . . and lost.

In the end, good man though he was, the stuff of Greatness simply was not in him and the disillusionment that followed amongst his party and the general population when this was realised would in the end prove catastrophic.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

This is the map I have for the 1927 CSA election.

Burton Mitchel III/???? (Whig): 124 EV
Jake Featherston/Ferdinand Koening (Freedom): 59 EV
Joseph Robinson/Cordell Hull (Radical Liberal): 20 EV

I assume the Freedomites barely win second place in terms of popular vote.

 

[Tiro]

A Few Thoughts on the Whig/Rad-Lib Rivalry:-

- From what I have gathered in the pages of this thread, it seems that the Radical Liberals are a very young political party; according to Craigo they are not much older than the 20th Century (probably formed in advance of the 1904 Presidential Election, possibly in time for the Mid-Term Elections which I assume still take place in the CSA, all the better for the waters to be tested in advance of a full election).

In many ways this makes their abysmal electoral record (in terms of having never secured the Presidential Mansion) far more understandable than in the case in the original books; they are likely to have foundered in the election of '04 by virtue of the doctrinal compromises needed to bridge the gap between Reactionary Agrarians (Liberals) and Yankee-Loving Socialists (Radicals) sending out the sort of mixed messages that can kill enthusiasm in an audience one desperately needs to seduce.

I'd guess that the harsh necessity of dispensing with the more extreme spirits at the fringes of both parties in order to remove the obstacle to the coherence of the newly-formed whole which they represented left a small but ultimately significant portion of the Party's supporters alienated for the nonce; it is likely the Socialists found more widespread support across the Colour Bar and it is not impossible that the Reactionaries (likely fiery advocates of States Rights at the expense of the common good of the Confederate States) sowed the seeds that would flower only after The Great War.

I think we can guess what form they might have taken …


- I have, in the course of my peregrinations across the Internet, come across some comments to the effect that Woodrow Wilson is a peculiar candidate to be put up for the position of CS President by the local conservative party; there is some logic in this, given the Whigs' aristocratic hauteur and habit of facilitating change only when it is in their best interest to do so (the "ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset).

However I suspect that by 1910 the Whigs were beginning to recognise that while the Populist Tidal Wave had long since receded, a progressive current had established itself in the waters of Confederate politics (certainly in politics across the Mason-Dixie line and possibly all across the World); while Confederate Citizens had enjoyed the long nineteenth century they were finally growing willing to enter the 20th in serious numbers and those numbers were increasingly steadily year-by-year.

If the Radical Liberals were not making serious efforts to associate themselves with this movement then they can only be called blithering idiots and given their recorded successes in reaching out across the lighter end of the colour bar, as well as their approaches to New Money and the periphery indicate that they were very far from being that.

Rad-Lib lack of success in Presidential Elections should not blind us to the possibility that they did far better in local and congressional elections, so the Whigs might have had serious grounds for concern - especially if the Radical Liberals were to turn themselves into the Party of Friendship with the United States (in fact I am morally certain that a major reason The Rad-Libs ran Doroteo Arango for President was that he was the most convincing war-hawk their Party could produce at short notice, which says something about the state of Martial Spirit in the Radical Liberals).

At this point I think the Whigs decided to move from the 'Watchful' to the 'Purposeful' phase of their customary 'Wait and See' approach and start head-hunting a candidate who would appeal to the pacifist, progressive, 'respectable' Radical Liberal voter and thereby infinitely lessen Rad-Lib chances of becoming inextricably linked with the Progressive tendency in the CSA at the expense of the Whig Party.

Mr Wilson, buttressed by the Whig reputation for firmness with the Yankees and keeping a steady hand on the tiller so as not to rock the boat, could arguably do far more for the sake of Reform than another progressive might at the head of the Radical Liberals - given that he at least would not have to worry about ardent conservative opposition from the Grand Old Party of the Confederacy.

Does this line of reasoning make sense?


- Finally I suspect that the Radical-Liberal failure to capitalise on the epochal changes following the Great War is founded on the irony at the core of the Party; The Radical Liberals are quite simply not radical enough to seem like the strong medicine a Confederate Population are looking for, while being too liberal for those seeking reassurance in the pattern of past glories to take comfort in.

Quite frankly the Whigs get the benefit of nostalgia, while revanchist groups profit from popular hysteria and the Radical Liberal lack of success in Presidential Elections (which has to hurt their chances of being taken seriously as a credible alternative).

Further I would suggest that the 'baby steps' approach to progressive change so essential in the mindset of a party looking to achieve widespread popularity in the intrinsically conservative Confederacy is likely to linger even after the cataclysmic impact of the Great War and the Red Rebellions shook things up - in fact it is not impossible that a party whose entire history has been one long struggle for legitimisation in the eyes of Confederate Society would not wish to risk a great leap forward (even to their own benefit) if they thought it would bring the shaky edifice of Confederate Society crashing down (and the consensus of which the Rad Libs, as loyal opposition, were a not inconsiderable part).

A worthy attitude, under the circumstances; the problem is that it may have affected the willingness of The Rad-Libs to meet newly-enfranchised coloured voters and the angry young men of the Confederacy, looking to settle scores with a Whig Government that had failed them, with the enthusiasm that might have won their undivided and quirt crucial loyalty.

Making a successful push for female enfranchisement wouldn't have hurt their chances either, had such a thing been attempted and possible.


- FInally, I suspect that the Radical Liberals cannot have been as unsuccessful electorally-speaking as some readers might think from their abysmal failure to get their man into the White House; had they been utterly useless it is hard to imagine why The Whigs would have conceived a spirit of rivalry fierce enough for them to utterly fail to reach across the floor and join hands in the face of the threat from the Freedom Party, a threat to the Rule of Law in the Confederacy and all who stood up for it, Radical Liberals and Whigs.

 

[Tiro]

I assume the Freedomites barely win second place in terms of popular vote.

Nothing there seems incompatible with my own take on things and it does indeed seem to be a fine map.

One thought I had was that while the Rad-Libs almost certainly placed third (or more likely a distant joint second, just to drive home the idea that Freedom Party ascendancy wasn't written in the stars) in the presidential election they did better than the Freedom Party in the congressional elections (where the electorate vote for known, rather than unknown quantities).

Not that either of them did spectacularly well, but if almost nobody in the Freedom Party is sitting in the Confederate Congress when the Crash comes down upon the Confederacy like a hammer mushing a ripe melon, then the Freedom Party is PERFECTLY placed to take advantage of the hysterical reaction against the sitting Congress without risk of being tarred with the same brush.

Do you think this makes sense?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Makes sense. Oh, and backing your theory of the Rad-Libs, a character in the books once said "the House is divided right down the middle between Whig and Rad-Lib" or something to that effect. Can't remember when, though, but it seems to prove your point.

Oh, and the election you're talking about is the 1903 election, not 1904.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Ah! Found it!

American Empire: Blood and Iron.

"Split as near down the middle between Whigs and Radical Liberals as makes no difference? And a couple of Socialists elected from Chihuahua and one from Cuba, and even one from New Orleans for Christ's sake?"

Now, I expect there'll be some "Independent Nationalists", a forerunner of the Freedom Party, Tin-Hats, Redemption League, etcetra.

 

[President Mahan]

Tiro, I have yet to read your character sketches, but I'd recommend having Jake Featherston being born on April 20, 1886. This would make him eligible to run for President of the CSA in 1921, what with him turning 35 that year.

Speaking of elections, I'm currently working on the 1908 election article. In the meantime, heres a map of the 1908 election. This map was originally made Turquoise Blue. The only change I made was having Indiana go Democratic instead of Socialist, as in President Mahan's Henry Cabot Lodge article it was mentioned that Indiana went for Aldrich and the Democrats.

I think we need to make a decision about the Socialists. In my latest Mahan Article I have the Socialists winning New York for the First time in 1916. It's also the first time they win a preseidential election east of the appalachians. Based on dialogue the books, the vast majority of the pre- great war generations view the the socialists as a minority party and not to be taken seriously. In the books all the older guys including steel workers Stephen Douglas Martin, treat the Socialists like dangerous radicals. Even older members of Flora Hamburg's family and members of the more socialist Lower East Side vote Democrat. It takes the post war recession, the horror of the great war and the loss of the Democrats raison d'etre to suddenly make the socialists seem like a viable alternative. As late as 1916 the Democrats had huge majorities in both Houses. They are not the equivalent of the Democrats in the north in OTL. They are more like if the Democrats were split into three parties.

In the Remembrance period I think the Socialist party generally only won smaller western and midwestern states, until Illinois in 1904. Remember the Sociliast don't elect their first Senator until Debs in 1908. So they are not likely to win big eastern states that are heavily remembrance. I think the center of Democrat power is in the more populous Eastern states and the border states, unlike the Republicans and Socialists. This is sort of what makes this timeline different then OTL where midwestern Republicans were the dominant force in the OTL Republican Party. Occasionally they would choose a New Yorker or New Englander.
Also New York is a border state, it also has a very well organized political machine in New York City that is good at providing for incoming immigrants. Craigo's Al Smith hints that Tammany Hall is still around.


Tiro great to have a new poster. Your character sketches are very interesting. My one pet peeve with Turtledove was the use of so many fictional characters in places of power the later books. It makes more sense in the CSA where people are being used to create allegories to Nazi figures, but I found his making Hosea Blackford President annoying.

Thanks for giving the Southern charactes more depth. I am glad somone liked the Semmes Article. When I reread it i get nervous that i went a little nuts, with my Knapp Coup Dixie style. I especially like your Burton Mitchell III article, why don't you write up the Mitchel article as a bio article. i think on Center Cannot Hold Turtledove is starting to suggest a shift in the power struture of the CSA elite. Anne Colleton seems to be saying that alot of the planter elite's power had been destroyed in the Red Rebellion. They were being replaced by Oil men and industrialists. I tried to suggest that in my Semmes article. I think we are of the same mind on this issue.

I have a history of the Whig Party that I am working on. So far its alot of copying and pasting of Craigo's stuff but i think I have a few ideas to tack on. If you go to the first page of the thread Craigo lays out the origin of the Radical Liberals.

District of Jefferson is an interesting idea. Is Richmond then still the capitol of Virginia? I can't remember it being mentioned in the book. An article on the Development of Richmond would be interesting. I have one I am working on for Philly.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=3116456&postcount=11

 

[President Mahan]

Battles and Skirmishes of the Second Mexican War

Lead Up
April 14th 1881 The CSA takes possession of Sonora and Chihuahua

April
War Begins April 25th, 1881
Bombardment of Washington DC

May
US Raid into CS Indian territory
Battle of Winchester

June
Invasion of Kentucky
• Siege of Louisville
CS Capture of Contention City New Mexico

July
Battle of Madera Canyon
Battle of Tombstone
General Hoods raid on Wichita

August
Invasion of Pocahontas
Great Britain and France Declare War
Battle of Sable Island*


September
Battle of Tiptonville
Royal Navy Bombardment of the East Coast Cities
• Portsmouth
• Boston
• New York
• Providence
• New Haven
Royal Navy Bombardment of
• Rochester,
• Buffalo,
• Erie
• Cleveland
French Navy Attack
• Los Angelos
• San Diego

October
Royal Navy Raid on San Francisco
Battle of Plattsburg
Battle of Eddington
CSA Counter Attack in Louisville
Second Cease Fire Late November
Battle of Teton River

November
Cease Fire
US draws out negotiation

War Ends April 22, 1882.



* A failed attempt by the US Navy to intercept a British Fleet trying to ferry reinforcements to Canada.
Missing Anything?

 

[bguy]

CS Capture of Washington DC

I don't believe the CS captured Washington D.C. in the Second Mexican War.

 

[rob2001]

I don't believe the CS captured Washington D.C. in the Second Mexican War.

No they didn't. But the city did come under cannon fire on day one, and that's why the government moved to Philadelphia.

 

[Tiro]

Oh, and the election you're talking about is the 1903 election, not 1904.

Dash it all, I keep forgetting that the Election occurs in the year before candidates take office - please accept my apologies for such inflicting such a Rookie Mistake upon you.

Tiro great to have a new poster. Your character sketches are very interesting.

Such praise from one of the Masters of this thread is everything that I hoped for but was terrified that I might not deserve!

It makes more sense in the CSA where people are being used to create allegories to Nazi figures, but I found his making Hosea Blackford President annoying.

In all fairness and in all likelihood Mr Turtledove used President Blackford in place of characters from our own History so that he might avoid incurring odium for misrepresenting persons who were still within living memory when he wrote the novels (and to a degree still are); I believe this approach also allowed him more flexibility when outlining the course of events that led into the Second Great War.

I have to admit that I don't mind the fictional characters so much myself because it allows far more leeway when writing them!

I especially like your Burton Mitchell III article, why don't you write up the Mitchel article as a bio article.

I shall consider doing so, but I'm not sure that there is very much to add beyond the fact that I consider Mr President Mitchel to have married into serious money (probably Texas oil or similar) which allowed him to really get his feet on the path to Congress and build bridges in the Western States.

I see his career in politics as honourable but not distinguished; he voted Conservative when the Whig Party decided on its leadership but voted in accordance with the Party Line otherwise - he was a man who placed loyalty highest of all the virtues, although only just in advance of Civility - and tended to keep his mouth shut about his actual opinions since he tended to express his opinions in such a way that those who disagreed with them tended to be offended.

During his brief career as Whip he tended to play the role of Good Cop; beyond that I cannot really say very much about his life beyond a vague suspicion that he read Law, rather than attend a military academy (something which may have affected his chances of rising in the Pre-War Confederacy) and I don't think he ever saw military service.

One more thing - I tend to think of him as a man who made few Friends but no Enemies during his pre-Presidential career; he was regarded as loyal and useful (particularly as a living Encyclopaedia of Confederate Law and Politics in general (as well as the Whig Party in particular) but not held to be an especially interesting prospect.

He was picked out to be Wade Hampton's VP because he was regarded as a useful tutor in Civilian Politics and the Whig Party for the fledgling president, because he was too much a senior statesman to be ignored but was not required elsewhere to hold down one of the Cabinet Offices.

In other words something of a moderately distinguished and useful non-entity; perfect VP material! (and as it turned out surprisingly useful as a President in a State of Emergency, owing to his commitment to Law & Order as well as his utter fearlessness).

I think we are of the same mind on this issue.

I agree, although I would place this caveat on the agreement - I tend to imagine that the Radical Liberals were also in competition for the Big Business money-types (I tend to imagine Whigs reaching out to Confederate new money, while the Rad-Libs were more hospitable to foreign investors, especially from the US - I also tend to see CSA/USA accommodation as a traditional plank of Rad-Lib policy).

I have a history of the Whig Party that I am working on. So far its alot of copying and pasting of Craigo's stuff but i think I have a few ideas to tack on.

I will be very glad to see that when you have it ready to post!

One thought that occurred to me today regarding the Whigs Vs Rad-Libs was that it might be amusing to use Gold for Whigs and Silver for Radical Liberals (to push the ongoing theme of the poor old Rad-Libs tending to come off second best!).

This is more of a whim than a conviction; I have to admit that I'm ruminating on Party Colours throughout Timeline-191 North America and have to date only been able to conclude that the Socialists (US) are definitely Red...

If you go to the first page of the thread Craigo lays out the origin of the Radical Liberals.

I actually tried to take that into account when constructing my suggested theories, but I hoped to add a little to our understanding of the Rad-Libs side of things; did I do tolerably well?

Is Richmond then still the capitol of Virginia?

Given that it remains the Capitol of the CSA I would guess that it is not; as I understand it putting the National and a State Capitol in the same city could only result in a great deal of confusion!

If Richmond is NOT the State Capitol then it is not impossible that The Old Dominion might return to Williamsburg (the ex-Capitol) although this would be a process requiring extension of the railway lines to that city and a considerable civic refurbishment to boot.

It is possible that they would prefer to set up in a city that had never before been given the honour of hosting the Capitol (if only as a temporary measure while Williamsburg was being renovated), although I'm not sure where the most likely candidate city would be.

Somewhere fairly central to the State and with good rail & river communication lines perhaps? (I fear my knowledge of Virginian Demographics and Geography is not up to the task!).



I shall do my best to come up with some other articles of interest to be posted and until then I hope that you all stay very well.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

The convention regarding the TL-191 US colors are...

Socialist red: Red is the traditional color of socialism.
Democratic blue: They would use the US flag colors, but since red is taken by the Socialists and white is a "neutral" color, blue would end up their default one.
Republican green: Green is the color of agrarianism, which reflects their Plains base.

Although I recall Turtledove once said that the GOP had yellow. I'll check.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

I'm wrong. It's Republican green, which backs the normal color scheme.

"Posters praising candidates for the upcoming Congressional elections sprouted like toadstools on walls and fences and telephone poles: Democratic red, white and blue, Socialist red and here and there, Republican green."

 

[Trotsky]

The GOP doesn't have a Plains base. Their support is largely limited to the Upper Great Lakes. Green would still be an appropriate color, probably.

 

[Tiro]

Thank you very kindly for explaining this Turquoise Blue; out of curiosity, may I please ask if there is any similar convention for the Confederacy and if there is just what the logic underpinning the choice of colours is? (I must admit that I love such little tidbits of 'Behind the Scenes' knowledge).

 

[Turquoise Blue]

The GOP doesn't have a Plains base. Their support is largely limited to the Upper Great Lakes. Green would still be an appropriate color, probably.

No, they have an agrarian base. They're pretty much explictly Midwest. Although you could debate what Midwest means.

Right after the previous quote.

"Outside of a few states in the Midwest, Republicans had a hard time getting elected."