TL-191: Filling the Gaps

I feel like Lynchburg would be the best candidate. Did you choose Danville because it was the final Capital of the CSA in otl?

Exactly - it struck me that this sort of allusion would be very much in the style of The Dean.


interesting ideas! my personal TL-191 fix-up has both governments staying in Richmond, largely because I liked the idea of all the different little groups (Fire-Eaters, pantomime Cavaliers, crypto-Unionist Uplanders, military industrialists, unpaid soldiers, Black militiamen led by Gen. Longstreet, deranged job-seekers hiding pistols, petitioners, cutpurses, sporadic Sumner-style beatings) typically tripping one another up with nobody around to make them behave

it'd also highlight how reliant the CS Congress is on one state to protect them, unlike in the US system

Given that Richmond is still the national capital either way, one suspects it would have more than it's fair share of loons and other enthusiasts, whether it's part of the Old Dominion or what I've come to think of as the 'District of Jefferson' (A nod to Thomas Jefferson and to Jefferson Davis): either way there's plenty of room for Government by the Heavy Mob!;)

On a slightly more serious note, I would be interested in seeing a map that showed the 'No more than 10 square miles' limit around Richmond's Capitol so that we have a rough base on which to sketch the Timeline 191 version of Richmond (Which would, in all likelihood, be strikingly different from our own): it's also interesting to wonder just where the various offices of the US Government would be placed in de facto capital Philadelphia (not to mention speculate on just how many of them would be purpose-built).
 
On a slightly more serious note, I would be interested in seeing a map that showed the 'No more than 10 square miles' limit around Richmond's Capitol so that we have a rough base on which to sketch the Timeline 191 version of Richmond (Which would, in all likelihood, be strikingly different from our own): it's also interesting to wonder just where the various offices of the US Government would be placed in de facto capital Philadelphia (not to mention speculate on just how many of them would be purpose-built).
Since the explosion of the Confederate superbomb on the outskirts of Philadelphia didn't decapitate the US government as intended that would indicate most federal government buildings were in the city center. Probably the same for Richmond but since it was a smaller city perhaps not as much.
 
Well that certainly gives us a general location, but what I'm particular intrigued by is the question of what local buildings may have been impressed into Government service and what sort of purpose-built structures may have been thrown up to host the various branches and departments of the US Government: just how ad-hoc should the de facto capital of the United States actually be?
 
the final Constitution does mention it CAN be done (I had the wrong one), but NOT doing it seems the exact sort of dysfunctionality that'd characterize both the Old and the New South TTL

I do like the issue as a bigger window on the fundamental tensions of CSA-191--it was founded on secession and states' rights, then kiboshed them 1863 largely to just survive; the Second War will just cement the need for tremendous crash industrialization to feed the central Army, with its hierarchy and its book larnin' that goes beyond genealogies of minor county gentry or plantation export ledgerse; it was founded on slavery as a positive good, then its "best friend" England forced Manumission by 1888 (out of embarrassment more than humanitarianism, everyone was on the warpath against the likes of the kings of Dahomey or Tippu Tip); it raves about being the most English of the ex-colonies, but is pretty dependent on French Louisianans and Spanish dynasts; householders are flattered that nobody can push THEM around (and they have every legal right to use lethal force), and it's a police state that'd make Tsar Alexander blush; it admires how generations of French schoolboys are taught there's no higher honor than to die to retake Alsace-Lorraine, but admires Germany's "army with a country"; it's enthusiastically White Supremacist, but the sheriffs and work-gang bosses never have any problem finding a grave for outsiders regardless of albedo; it talks big about the war-whoop and the Rebel Yell and the bushwhacker and the cowboy, but it's run by Whig Party men who are basically purse dogs, snarling and biting at the ankles of the Rad Libs or the pinkos, or standing eyes glazed and clapping their little paws in slavering anticipation of a morsel and a pat on the head from a senator or governor

so even a little thing like Richmond is gonna play a big part in how Freedomism came to happen--how everything came to a head
 
Last edited:
I'm also trying to work out the names of the political parties in Mexico for my fanfiction is it likely that we could see the Radical Liberals & the Whigs in Mexico?
 
I'm also trying to work out the names of the political parties in Mexico for my fanfiction is it likely that we could see the Radical Liberals & the Whigs in Mexico?
a lot of the more influential figures of OTL's Mexican Revolution were from Sonora or Chihuahua (even Turtledove's cheap AH injoke about Pancho Villa running for president comes from this, and Madero was also a norteño): so this wealthy, Europeanizing, criollo class would be absent from Mexico City TTL, but be the Western face of the Rad Libs (a party Turt doesn't really cover)

OTL's porifiriato was pretty monarchical--35 years, and standing on the pillars of 1 a landowning Church from the 16th century and 2 Francophile social scientists: this is actually matches the dominance of Comtean Positivists in Brazil and their role in overthrowing the empire there

other TLs here have seconded successors from Maximilian from the House of Iturbide, but he just glues a 30s Spanish Civil War onto Mexico, and it's sorta aggravating because he's a Byzantinist and could really have made something out of the sistema that existed in Mexico before and after its OTL Revolution

ironically by the 20s there was a Catholic federalist/regional army against OTL's anticlerical regimes, until the most revolutionary (and most pragmatic) President settled everything in the 30s: so TTL the Cristeros might even be a third force against the monarchy
 
Last edited:
a lot of the more influential figures of OTL's Mexican Revolution were from Sonora or Chihuahua (even Turtledove's cheap AH injoke about Pancho Villa running for president comes from this, and Madero was also a norteño): so this wealthy, Europeanizing, criollo class would be absent from Mexico City TTL, but be the Western face of the Rad Libs (a party Turt doesn't really cover).
That's really interesting thinking about the impact that the absence of the criollo class would have on the evolution of Mexican politics. Do you have any ideas? Would this lead to Mexico being even further divided into a wealthy land-owning elite versus tenant farmers?
OTL's porifiriato was pretty monarchical--35 years, and standing on the pillars of 1 a landowning Church from the 16th century and 2 Francophile social scientists: this is actually matches the dominance of Comtean Positivists in Brazil and their role in overthrowing the empire there.

other TLs here have seconded successors from Maximilian from the House of Iturbide, but he just glues a 30s Spanish Civil War onto Mexico, and it's sorta aggravating because he's a Byzantinist and could really have made something out of the sistema that existed in Mexico before and after its OTL Revolution.
I briefly looked online at sistema, but couldn't find anything. Do you have any links that I could look at for my TL?
Ironically by the 20s there was a Catholic federalist/regional army against OTL's anticlerical regimes, until the most revolutionary (and most pragmatic) President settled everything in the 30s: so the Cristeros might even be a third force against the monarchy
Great suggestion adding a third force that just makes it seem more realistic, as civil wars tend to be ridiculously complicated events. I'm going to include the Cristeros into the TL - thanks.
 
technically it was just called the porfiriato, keeping the various factions (campesinos, Church, Francophile intellectuals, Army, foreign investors) happy--or happy enough, at least; Diaz's downfall came when he ran again 1910 after saying he wouldn't, and all the people waiting to climb up the political ladder revolted; OTL's Institutional Revolutionary Party (the name's already a spoiler) also managed this trick of absorbing every rival and competing interest (until eventually they can't)

so without El Norte the 1910s will just have Zapata in Morelos in the south-centrer and the Magon Brothers in Los Angeles--and maybe Arango riding on both sides of the border; so that'll hold things off for a generation, to make a Spain analogue for Turtledove
 
other TLs here have seconded successors from Maximilian from the House of Iturbide, but he just glues a 30s Spanish Civil War onto Mexico, and it's sorta aggravating because he's a Byzantinist and could really have made something out of the sistema that existed in Mexico before and after its OTL Revolution
Hey, digging deep into the complexities of Mexican history would have meant sacrificing precious hours the Dean could have spent with those rascally Eastern Romans!😉

On a more serious note, if Harry Turtledove hadn’t left so many intriguing gaps in his coverage of Timeline 191 we wouldn’t get all these chances to fill them in to our complete satisfaction (For one thing, I don’t believe we ever learn whether or not the Confederate States have State Police organisations or if the CS Marshals service was ever assembled: for another there’s complete silence on whether Chihuahua and Sonora had to reorganise their municipalities into counties after their acquisition by the Confederacy).

This is because Harry Turtledove, a writer who knows how to get a book DONE, is wise enough not to throw in every possible detail.
 
the final Constitution does mention it CAN be done (I had the wrong one), but NOT doing it seems the exact sort of dysfunctionality that'd characterize both the Old and the New South TTL

I do like the issue as a bigger window on the fundamental tensions of CSA-191--it was founded on secession and states' rights, then kiboshed them 1863 largely to just survive; the Second War will just cement the need for tremendous crash industrialization to feed the central Army, with its hierarchy and its book larnin' that goes beyond genealogies of minor county gentry or plantation export ledgerse; it was founded on slavery as a positive good, then its "best friend" England forced Manumission by 1888 (out of embarrassment more than humanitarianism, everyone was on the warpath against the likes of the kings of Dahomey or Tippu Tip); it raves about being the most English of the ex-colonies, but is pretty dependent on French Louisianans and Spanish dynasts; householders are flattered that nobody can push THEM around (and they have every legal right to use lethal force), and it's a police state that'd make Tsar Alexander blush; it admires how generations of French schoolboys are taught there's no higher honor than to die to retake Alsace-Lorraine, but admires Germany's "army with a country"; it's enthusiastically White Supremacist, but the sheriffs and work-gang bosses never have any problem finding a grave for outsiders regardless of albedo; it talks big about the war-whoop and the Rebel Yell and the bushwhacker and the cowboy, but it's run by Whig Party men who are basically purse dogs, snarling and biting at the ankles of the Rad Libs or the pinkos, or standing eyes glazed and clapping their little paws in slavering anticipation of a morsel and a pat on the head from a senator or governor

so even a little thing like Richmond is gonna play a big part in how Freedomism came to happen--how everything came to a head

An excellent point, well-argued: it does occur to me that the districting of Richmond as a National Capital might well be the sort of small detail that might be addressed much later than it really ought to have been as a way of showing that the Confederate Government actually DOES pay attention to the Constitution, no need to worry that pretty little head of yours, Dixie.

Bonus points if the CS President who finally gets wise to marking out the Capital District is Burton Mitchel, making a rather sad effort to balance out his rather appalling subversion of the Law of the Land (In the interests of that second term and keeping the rabble/pinkos/fascists out of power).

Admittedly I tend to imagine Mitchel as the sort of profoundly scrupulous (though not necessarily admirably scrupulous) man who would feel at least a little guilty about his most notorious mistake - even while exploiting his previously impeccable record to get away with it.
 
Put another way - this take on President Mitchel is a man who will always sweat over details and little scruples of conscience, but who allows himself to become worrisomely slipshod over general principles out of a burning need to be the Indispensable Man.
 
Last edited:
presumably Mitchel doubles down on Whig austerity, rules by decree, and packs the Supreme Court after promising to save the South from all that by preventing a Featherston win 1927 ... he even made Pinkard (a literal SS camp guard) interesting (though not sympathetic) but after Blood and Iron it's not really AH, it's just a bunch of walk-on 30s Germany expys bouncing around in some colorless place we're told to pretend is Alabama or Virginia or NYC

(personally I don't believe the Whigs and Rad Libs would even survive the CSA being crushed, they're both clearly "vote for us and then go home again for 23 months until we whip you up again" parties that would've been no stronger than the Republicans in 1883)
 
Last edited:
Well given that FILLING THE GAPS was born and bred to expand on Timeline-191 while operating on the understanding that all sorts of interesting things were going on for which Harry Turtledove simply didn’t have the time or the proper POV to depict properly, I feel that your remark should be only half correct (In that President Mitchel talked the Supreme Court around by pointing out that it was either him or the Old School Whigs would be obliged to accept either Featherston, Knight or - quite possibly worst of all, by their lights - a Reform Whig).

If nothing else, I feel that the interbellum CSA can borrow very profitably from the Reconstruction Era of US history (Given the parallels - at least in the Southern states - between that period and the rise of Fascism in Germany*).

*I don’t think it’s at all inaccurate to suggest that the undercurrent of violent racism and white power nationalism which generated waves of murder, political violence and the deliberate subversion of the democratic process is horribly easy to compare to the unhappy history of post WWI Germany: while Rutherford B. Hayes was no Adolph Hitler, the devil’s bargain that got him into the White House arguably saw a comparable change for the worse in the former Confederacy.
 
(personally I don't believe the Whigs and Rad Libs would even survive the CSA being crushed, they're both clearly "vote for us and then go home again for 23 months until we whip you up again" parties that would've been no stronger than the Republicans in 1883)
I tend to feel that there are two possible explanations for this:-

- Firstly, that the Whigs stacked the odds in their favour so cold the cards froze in the ballot box (I.E. They had to cheat to win, but had so firm a control of the machinery of Confederate politics that there wasn’t much the opposition could do to stop them without triggering a war that would bring in the Yankees, which nobody wanted).


- Secondly, that the Whig Party persisted in name only after the Great War, with fringe elements in the party moving under the umbrella of the Party name and fame to turn the Whigs into a very different animal, keeping them more competitive at the ballot box (As mentioned above, this would help explain Mitchel taking a death grip on power in 1927: he’s an Old School Whig who wants to see the CSA run on old school laissez faire lines - a restful policy which the Party establishment and just enough of the country likes the idea of, but which proves fatally reliant on nothing major ever, ever changing).
 
the 1840s-50s Whigs were more Hamiltonian/Clayite/Unionist and the Democrats' opponents; I even have an atlas of the Confederate Congress (now why did I ever buy that?) and they have a strong presence in the Lowcountry as well as the Appalachians; 1861-84 the Southron treasonists were divided between a Pro- and an Anti-Administration faction; in the 1860s and 70s the CSA could still play that "we have no parties" card

even without Reconstruction the post-'83 Whigs have the "Redshirts" as "ballot watchers" and "spycatchers" before the Second War--while the most famous generals (Beauregard, Longstreet, and Forrest) were people who were two-faced enough to lead armies of freedmen against the Redshirts OTL (these founding generals of course have many statues raised in the 1900s and 10s as OTL, but after all bronze doesn't talk back); so these might be the founding seeds of the two parties, but the factions wouldn't really have names until 1883

everything about the Rad-Libs screams "Wilsonianism" to me (not a fake nobleman, able to read books other than diaries and family trees, went to the "border state" of NJ, demands that hillside peasants in Honduras or Formosa submit entirely to a country that can't even speak their language), so I have him down as technically the first R-L pres, then a fusionist once the war starts ("we're all one people!"), recreating the 1860s' Pro-Administration/"Confederate" Party: so I guess that'd let Turt carelessly list him as yet another Whig

[and likewise I have a National Union Party (ironically named for Lincoln's compromise with Johnson) as the name for the Dems after 1883-4 to absorb all the other factions, though either Bryan or TR forces them back to the old name by 1912]
 
Last edited:
@MisterP, your points are well-made: for the record, I tend to agree that President Wilson would have been a more natural fit with the Rad-Libs but was more or less suborned by the Whigs as a way to put a new face on the same old party (and allowed himself to be suborned because he wanted power NOW not “later, perhaps” - probably believing he could outwit the Old Guard).

I’m also very much of the opinion that the name ‘Whigs’ was originally stuck on the party as an insulting nickname that became something like a badge of honour through the mysterious processes of tribalism (As was the case with the original ‘Whig’ and ‘Tory’ labels).

As you suggest, it’s almost certainly not the official name of the Party, but they just can’t seem to shake it!
 

bguy

Donor
@MisterP, your points are well-made: for the record, I tend to agree that President Wilson would have been a more natural fit with the Rad-Libs but was more or less suborned by the Whigs as a way to put a new face on the same old party (and allowed himself to be suborned because he wanted power NOW not “later, perhaps” - probably believing he could outwit the Old Guard).

The Whigs seem to be a broad tent party since while the party clearly has a strong conservative wing, it also appears to have a populist/progressive wing as well which is strong enough to get its people on the national tickets. (As shown by it having Woodrow Wilson and Hugo Black on national tickets.)

I suspect what happened is that the Whigs were becoming increasingly progressive in the early part of the twentieth century (probably to counter the rising Radical Liberal party), which cumulated in the election of progressive Whigs to the presidency in 1909 (Wlison) and 1915 Semmes (I'm assuming Semmes was a progressive since he pushed through allowing African-Confederates to join the army and get their citizenship), but then the progressive wing of the party was badly discredited by the Red Rebellion and loss the First Great War and because of that (and to counter the rising strength of the Freedom Party and other actionist groups) the conservative wing of the party became dominant again in 1921, after which the martyrdom of President Hampton and the success of the first Mitchel administration allowed the conservatives to keep control of the party throughout the '20s until the Great Depression hit, and they proved unable to respond effectively. It seems likely that the Whigs then tried to swing back to the left in the 1933 election (hence the presence of Hugo Black on their ticket), but by that point it was too little too late. Indeed by swinging back to the left in 1933 they probably just guaranteed the election of Featherston, since doing so would have weakened the Rad Libs, and also probably caused a lot of the conservative Whigs to jump ship to the Freedom Party.

I tend to feel that there are two possible explanations for this:-

- Firstly, that the Whigs stacked the odds in their favour so cold the cards froze in the ballot box (I.E. They had to cheat to win, but had so firm a control of the machinery of Confederate politics that there wasn’t much the opposition could do to stop them without triggering a war that would bring in the Yankees, which nobody wanted).


- Secondly, that the Whig Party persisted in name only after the Great War, with fringe elements in the party moving under the umbrella of the Party name and fame to turn the Whigs into a very different animal, keeping them more competitive at the ballot box (As mentioned above, this would help explain Mitchel taking a death grip on power in 1927: he’s an Old School Whig who wants to see the CSA run on old school laissez faire lines - a restful policy which the Party establishment and just enough of the country likes the idea of, but which proves fatally reliant on nothing major ever, ever changing).

Those are both plausible explanations. I suspect the Whigs also benefited greatly post-FGW just from the opposition to them being divided (in a first past the post voting system having a divided opposition is a huge advantage to the ruling party) and because both the Rad Libs and Freedom Party have attributes that would make them utterly repugnant to a lot of Confederate voters. The Rad Libs are easily characterized as wimps (if not outright traitors) because they favor accomodating the United States, while the Freedom Party and other actionist parties look like absolute maniacs since they regularly engage in political terrorism (and not just against blacks and socialists either as the Stalwarts are shown to be perfectly willing to attack Radical Libs and even Whigs). Thus I imagine there were a lot of Confederate voters in 1921 that felt disilusioned with the Whigs, but ultimately decided to stick with them because they still seemed the better choice than the weak Rad Libs or the thuggish Freedom Party.

everything about the Rad-Libs screams "Wilsonianism" to me (not a fake nobleman, able to read books other than diaries and family trees, went to the "border state" of NJ, demands that hillside peasants in Honduras or Formosa submit entirely to a country that can't even speak their language), so I have him down as technically the first R-L pres, then a fusionist once the war starts ("we're all one people!"), recreating the 1860s' Pro-Administration/"Confederate" Party: so I guess that'd let Turt carelessly list him as yet another Whig

Wilson might have been an awkward fit in the Radical Liberals just because his white supremacist views wouldn't fit well in a party that got so much of its strength from the Confederate Spanish speaking states (and also presumably from Sequoyah.)
 
Mr B, as ever your points are very cogent: with regard to specific remarks:-


(I'm assuming Semmes was a progressive since he pushed through allowing African-Confederates to join the army and get their citizenship)
A plausible suggestion, though I've always wondered if Semmes was an unusually pragmatic Conservative - on the theory that "Only Nixon could go to China" - in that, by recruiting the Black Regiments and enfranchising their survivors, he helps improve the Confederacy's international image (It's a lot easier to counteract any damage the Red Rebellions did to Dixie's reputation by showing that there are Black Confederates willing to fight for the South, as well as fight against it), turns a potentially dangerous element in the population against the enemy nation that has a historic interest in sponsoring violent uprisings amongst that population and potentially gains a new constituency for a Whig Party that will have lost a LOT of friends after the Great War, one way or the other.

I tend to favour the notion of his being a cold-blooded pragmatist with a tendency to throw ice water on warm, fuzzy Southern illusions (Hence his having been landed in the historically inconsequential office of Vice President*). This also ties into the notion of Wilson being (relatively speaking) a 'kinder, gentler' Whig, since the Old Guard might want a man of their own on the ticket (and Wilson might want to make sure the man in question is somebody he's in no great danger of being shunted aside for).

*Note that this is partly inspired by my mental image of him as a sort of mirror image to Theodore Roosevelt (Who in our own history seems to have been selected as McKinley's Vice President mostly so he could be safely shooed away from the levers of power ... in theory).


Thus I imagine there were a lot of Confederate voters in 1921 that felt disilusioned with the Whigs, but ultimately decided to stick with them because they still seemed the better choice than the weak Rad Libs or the thuggish Freedom Party.
I'd bet money that the Whig Party has spun-spun-spun Confederate political history to make it seem that there has never been a non-Whig president (Making it harder for the electorate to imagine that there could ever be a President from outside the party is the first step to persuading them either that the Whigs will always be the winning side that it's best to join OR that there's simply no point in voting at all).


Wilson might have been an awkward fit in the Radical Liberals just because his white supremacist views wouldn't fit well in a party that got so much of its strength from the Confederate Spanish speaking states (and also presumably from Sequoyah.)
Woodrow Wilson being a pretty obnoxious racist even by the standards of early 20th politics does seem a plausible multiversal constant ...
 
my Whigs and Rad-Libs aren't really parties in the sense of "a group of politicians and voters comprising an organization with candidates, platforms, and allied media, then on one day everyone goes to the booths": it's more like the traditional duopolies in Latin America: an election is a public festival for the endorsement of a single list/slate of candidates--they barbecue a steer, hand out hard liquor, and pass out convertible scrip or raffle tickets (so they’re TECHNICALLY not bribing voters): the name of the faction doing this depends on the state (though you’re quite free to double-dip as long as you don’t actually vote twice, your employer and the state militia can see the ink on your finger)

there's the Tocquevillean cracker-barrel orators and brawls between readers of different newspapers, but it's mostly about the direction the Party should go, not which party to choose freely between--electoral violence is a way to discipline the public, not to prevent a rival like OTL's Wilmington 1898 against the Populists and Republicans; this system's probably content-free and resilient enough to keep the parties tottering onwards past 1917, like a sports team[1]

my TL has basically a Confederate near-civil war 1863-68 as the Anti-Administration faction gathers everyone from states’-rights Fire-Eaters to militarist war heroes leading Negro janissaries against Davis’s men--OTL Grant singled out Lee and Johnston for praise, and Beauregard, Longstreet, and Forrest were downright Reconstructionists (utterly out of personal self-interest): so the bedrock of this CSA is already riven from the start, and each "historic compromise" by the Pro-Administration/Whig Party requires more infilling: the original generals will have their statues raised 1900s and 10s, but only because they're simply safer dead and bronzed

so Wilson looks and smells and quacks like a Rad-Lib, but 1909 could just be seeing the parties at a low ebb so you just have a single list of candidates and one of them gets the E-votes (like how all the 1824 candidates were Dem-Reps)

because of patrimonialism freedmen, Uplanders, and vets vote 50/50 (or more like 30/30/40 if you add the socialists who actually bother courting them[2] with more than the elite parties’ “vote for me and imagine I’ll do something really nice, but don’t ever talk to me in person you smelly peasant”); without Reconstruction[3] Black people voting is, itself, NOT a fear of the political class

[1] Richmond also has to present a nice face to the British and French, so they'll stay on their side (I mean that little matter of the S-word is all cleared up, now right?)
[2] even the socialist Confederate Workingman’s Party formally segregates meetings, but there’s always a dinner at the end where they happen to walk around and try and hash out race vs. class
[3] which, to reiterate, I believe should had lasted to at least 1965, specifically just to rub the anniversary in their faces
ultimately I based the party systems on Imperial/Old Republican Brazil, Japan throughout the first half of the 20th, and the funny coincidence Liberia's one party 1869-1980 was called the True Whigs (fused with the Masons, which in turn fused with West African men’s societies): I had the cerebral misfortune of seeing two rival parties where one was described as "liberal conservative" and the other as "conservative liberal"
 
Last edited:
as for race, realistically we're facing two different flavors of white supremacism--a Anglo one that's just Black and White[1] and a Franco-Spanish one that carefully shades its oppression by something like the casta system--a Sequoyan noble spanning back generations with several disavowed sons off of free women will be different from someone like Homer Plessy[2]--but they'll all have their place; basically if you’re a landowner, sheriff, plantation overseer, or ballot ruffian you’re a Whig; if you’re a city dweller, longshoreman, cotton factor, Italian or Mexican recruited to “whiten” the CSA, peanut grower, lawyer, professor, artilleryman, or military engineer you’re a Rad-Lib

a gallery of people who wouldn't have to sweat laws about "passing" in Sonora or Louisiana:
220px-Enrique_C_Creel.jpg
R.de52309cd430df1d716d4d8661b6b7ec
R.cb43b1348f803b02468880e11ef5d87e
1686289672735.png

[1] and if you go to an Ozark holler or the Mississippi Delta you'll get only one or the other
[2] no coincidence his famous OTL case was in a state with Latin rather than Anglo law
 
Last edited:
Top