TL-191: Filling the Gaps
- Thread starter Craigo
- Start date
I don't think were any references. But I do feel same enough to say that Hampton was also the first to die in office. I have no proof of this, but I have the vague feeling that at some point a character might have said, "a President hasn't died since...." or something like that. And on a different note, I looked at the dates given in How Few Remain, and I would say that the Second Mexican War started on June 28, 1881, and Britian and France entered the war on July 1. I could be off completely by a few days, maybe a weak, but I think the dates work pretty well 
According to arithmetic...
1. 1862-1868: Jefferson Davis
2. 1868-1874:
3. 1874-1880:
4. 1880-1886: James Longstreet
5. 1886-1892:
6. 1892-1898:
7. 1898-1904:
8. 1904-1910:
9. 1910-1916: Woodrow Wilson
10. 1916-1922: Gabriel Semmes
11. 1922: Wade Hampton V
12. 1922-1934: Burton Mitchel
13. 1934-1944: Jake Featherston
14. 1944: Don Partridge
I agree with Trotsky. And Craigo, just wondering, how did you make those presidential election maps on page 14?
14?That's if no one died or resigned. One of my potential Confederate presidents (the list is still a work in progress, obviously) died of natural causes during the term I had him slated for.
At least twice in Blood and Iron it says that no one had murdered a Northern or Southern President, but I can't find any reference yet to none dying in office.
I agree with Trotsky. And Craigo, just wondering, how did you make those presidential election maps on page
I found an outline map somewhere (I'm not sure where, If I find it I'll post it on Photobucket). My laptop doesn't actually have any neat cartography or art software, so I use SumoPaint's online image editor. It's fairly versatile.
For the US and CS, I just erase the states that are not a part of that country. For territorial changes within states, I'll just have to make the changes freestyle - I'm planning on portraying the post-GW northern Virginia border realistically, for example, instead of that awful diagonal slash.
Burton Mitchel's "re-election" and the big constitutional question that it spawned could probably imply that, since this was the first time in Confederate history such an event had happened, that all previous C.S. presidents save for Hampton had served full single terms.
bguy
Donor
And if a previous CSA Vice President had ascended to the Presidency and then not run for election on his own then Featherston would have been citing that as a precedent and screaming about how Mitchel needs to act like good ol' President Whoever and stand down. So yeah it does seem likely that all the CSA Presidents before Hampton served out their full terms.
Sweet, thanks. And I was looking at the proposed Confederate Presidential list a few pages ago. I don't think John Tyler Morgan would match the description from the book. Morgan, an insane expansionist in OTL, would probably be even more expansionist in this 191 since the Confederates won the war (sort of a victory syndrome). If he were President from 1892-1898, he would deal with the Canal Crisis. It's obvious he would support the canal (as he did in OTL), but I don't think he would let the U.S. tell him no. I think he would be stupid enough to go to war over it, no matter what the odds were because of his blind belief in Manifest Denstiny. I think the person were looking for to fill the 1892-1898 Presidency slot would half to be mainly focused on domestic policy, agree to the canal when it was proposed by Congress, and then shoot it down as soon as he recieved the threat from America out of pure weakness and fear. I believe the person would be focused on domestic policy (specifically the economy) because once the Great Depression was starting, Clarence Potter mentioned a big recession in 1888 (along with 1902). So if you can think of any economic reform, spineless, southern politicians from the 1890s, that would be great Just my thoughts on the matter.
Just my thoughts on the matter.That was actually why I wanted to do it - I've been thinking more and more about what-ifs inside the series. But in any case, I've got options if I don't use him.
Sweet, thanks. And I was looking at the proposed Confederate Presidential list a few pages ago. I don't think John Tyler Morgan would match the description from the book. Morgan, an insane expansionist in OTL, would probably be even more expansionist in this 191 since the Confederates won the war (sort of a victory syndrome). If he were President from 1892-1898, he would deal with the Canal Crisis. It's obvious he would support the canal (as he did in OTL), but I don't think he would let the U.S. tell him no. I think he would be stupid enough to go to war over it, no matter what the odds were because of his blind belief in Manifest Denstiny. I think the person were looking for to fill the 1892-1898 Presidency slot would half to be mainly focused on domestic policy, agree to the canal when it was proposed by Congress, and then shoot it down as soon as he recieved the threat from America out of pure weakness and fear. I believe the person would be focused on domestic policy (specifically the economy) because once the Great Depression was starting, Clarence Potter mentioned a big recession in 1888 (along with 1902). So if you can think of any economic reform, spineless, southern politicians from the 1890s, that would be great
My reasoning was that, as you said, it's extremely unlikely that a Confederate president would back down just a decade or two past the Second Mexican War. The only plausible explanation I had was if he lacked Anglo-French support. So I needed someone who was so bellicose and outrageous that his behavior would drive his allies away and leave him standing alone. I chose States Rights Gist because, well, just look at the name, but Morgan would fit as well.
Edit: Would Morgan be too old? He would have turned seventy in the middle of his term.
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Well Reagan was about 70 when he was elected, but that might be pushing it. William Henry Harrison was 71 when he was elected, and we all know what happened to him
The withdraw of Britian and France's support would definately change the equation. Maybe this is what happens: Morgan proposes and Congress passes the bill to build the canal. The U.S. opposes it, and threatens war if the canal is built. Morgan laughs in their faces, and shows what he's like on the international stage. Britain and France, although stating they will support the Confederacy economically and politically, they will not join the war of give troops (I think its a little unlikely to remove their support completely). Morgan still wants to go to war, and asks Congress for a declaration of war against the United States. Congress, already lukewarm about the canal idea in the first place because of the cost, and now without the full support of the Confederacy's foreign allies, fails to pass the measure and war is averted. The canal bill is struck from the books. A furious Morgan gets the blame politically, and he fails to get anything of value done in the last 4 years of his Presidency.
Thats just a thought of what might happen.
The withdraw of Britian and France's support would definately change the equation. Maybe this is what happens: Morgan proposes and Congress passes the bill to build the canal. The U.S. opposes it, and threatens war if the canal is built. Morgan laughs in their faces, and shows what he's like on the international stage. Britain and France, although stating they will support the Confederacy economically and politically, they will not join the war of give troops (I think its a little unlikely to remove their support completely). Morgan still wants to go to war, and asks Congress for a declaration of war against the United States. Congress, already lukewarm about the canal idea in the first place because of the cost, and now without the full support of the Confederacy's foreign allies, fails to pass the measure and war is averted. The canal bill is struck from the books. A furious Morgan gets the blame politically, and he fails to get anything of value done in the last 4 years of his Presidency.
Thats just a thought of what might happen.
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Wolfpaw
Banned
I think he'd be seen sort of like Reagan was seen in the '80s--an avuncular/grandfatherly type who nonetheless embodies the zeitgeist of the era at the time of his election.
I think Turtledove personally filled all the gaps dealing with the Population Reduction in the books. I really want to see a post about Featherston's early life.
JSmith
Banned
Oh I disagree here. Some I can think of off the top of my head are the role eugenics/social Darwinism would have played in justifying the Population Reduction, the Confederate occupation of Haiti,other death camps not mentioned,some examples of blacks who escaped due to the few merciful whites,more info on the War Crimes trials,the relations between Confederate-Mexicans and the remaining blacks,where the most blacks survived/were eliminated etc,etc.
I admit some of those points would be good to get more detail on, but I think Turtledove filled in a lot of information. I don't think social Darwinism came into play. Thats kind of how the Nazis justified killing the Jews and the Slavs in the Holocaust. But the Freedom Party wasn't very mystical. All they wanted to do was make the Confederacy a better place by killing the blacks, and not carry out a global killing of them like the Nazis. In the Confederacy in the series, whites were considered superior over blacks and no one cared whether or not blacks died or not. In the books, the Confederacy didn't care whether or not blacks existed, as long as they didn't exist in their country. And its mentioned that over a million blacks died in Camp Determination alone. Throw in Camps Humble and Dependable, and its doubtful a lot of camps would exist. I would guess blacks would be eliminated in the places where they caused the most damage in the Red Rebellion and where the populations were high, such as Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Virginia. But ya, I would like to hear more about the war trials too. And I think only a handful of whites would help hide the blacks in the series. And the biggest reason they would hide them would be to spite the Freedom Party and Featherston.
Question: Just wondering, in the Confederate Presidential elections of 1921 and 1927, Ferdinand Koenig was Jake Featherston's running mate. But they were both from Virginia; the Confederate Constitution specifically forbids the President and Vice President being from the same state. Any explainations people can think of?
Question: Just wondering, in the Confederate Presidential elections of 1921 and 1927, Ferdinand Koenig was Jake Featherston's running mate. But they were both from Virginia; the Confederate Constitution specifically forbids the President and Vice President being from the same state. Any explainations people can think of?
Interesting, you certainly have the capabilities for making a timeline and show good amounts of Historical competence.
A new Thread in the Pre-1900 Forum is a must. Your style can easily be used for writing Timelines and is somewhat similar to other excellent timelines like IchBinDieKaiser's A Long and Flowing Whig.
I am also interested in this being elaborated on.
This is one that I really want to do, along with the Russian Civil War. In due time, I don't want to rush it. A series of articles would be most likely.