TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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  2. EnglishCanuck Blogger/Writer/Dangerous Moderate

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    Ages and ages ago I brought up the idea for a "filling in the blanks" naval battle from the Second Great War. Now, some of this does rely on info from the wiki and a hazy memory of the second trilogy, but bear with me, as I'm adding to the idea.

    Firstly, there is the confusing claim about the battle between the Royal Navy and the High Seas Fleet, I'm choosing to interpret this as a fight between the British fleet and the German warships. Tentatively I'm calling this the "Battle of the North Sea" in my idea. Now, I picture this as something akin to OTL's Operation Ten-Go where the Germans (who are deficient in aircraft carriers) launch an attempted naval offensive with their large surface fleet, hoping to force the Royal Navy into decisive battle with their super dreadnoughts. They get their wish, but disastrously.

    The Germans sortie, only to be torn to pieces by British air power from both the British Isles, and the fleet anchored and waiting. The High Seas Fleet suffers catastrophic losses and is all but wiped out, only a massive air battle managing to save the remainder of the fleet, but at great cost.

    Because of this, the British feel confident enough to turn their naval might to challenge the Americans in home waters. Originally my thought was to put this in the Grand Banks, but I figure the British would want to do something big, but the USN would catch on. They allow the British fleet to concentrate at Bermuda, then launch a do or die attack, to drive the British from North American waters for good.

    In my mind this "Second Battle of Bermuda" plays out much like OTL's Battle of Midway, save for it is the US doing the invading. After the British carriers are savaged, the fleet has no choice but to retreat to European waters. The Americans let them go, but retake Bermuda shortly thereafter.

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    These battles sound really good, especially the "Second Battle of Bermuda". That battle should have been made official and given more attention, instead of portraying the U.S. and Japanese fighting each other in Midway. The Turtledove Wiki states that Bermuda had Confederates and British fighting against the U.S.

    Now that I think of it, I'd like to see Bermuda be given some discussion. Alterwright and I were able to give life to the Caribbean Campaign, especially to a U.S.-aligned Jamaica. Why not Bermuda, even if it is one battle?
     
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  4. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    This sounds more like a campaign to me, much larger than just the sea battle itself. Its not a bad thing, I like it, it just sounds larger than just a one time battle. And as part of the co-current Battle of the Atlantic, this one would be a major engagement, on the scale of Midway indeed or even the Battle of Saipan and the Battle of the Philippine Sea. But would it be exactly like Midway? Are we looking at a primarily carrier vs. carrier engagement or is this a capital ship fight? How many ships and how many carriers? We're also seeing multiple sides get involved here too.
     
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  5. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    I've done a bit of thinking on this subject and my own personal theory was that the German fleet tried to do something clever with the Norwegian harbours opened up to them after that little fit of optimism on Winnie's part; possibly using those bases to launch sallies into the Norwegian Sea (chasing the convoys likely to be running between Great Britain and Russia) and quite possibly being inspired by smaller sallies to risk a larger operation that sees them ram headlong into a meat-grinder.

    It's not impossible that the difference between a major defeat and a minor embarrassment for Germany lay in a few hours of clear flying at EXACTLY the wrong time ...
     
  6. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    I agree with both of these ideas - my suggestion would be that the British had committed a number of ships to harassment operations against the United States' points of vulnerability in the Western Hemisphere (in a bid to keep the US Navy too busy covering its bases to poke its nose into the Irish Sea); while the US would, of course, have far more to play with the sheer length of the Atlantic seaboard the Northern fleet would have to cover makes it nearly impossible to cover everything (especially with the Confederate States presenting an almighty distraction of Air Corps assets and the Pacific Fleet demanding resources be committed to the "wrong" side of Cape Horn).

    While the British cannot HOLD very much or hit the juiciest targets, it seems very plausible that the RN could sting the Northern colossus just enough to keep coastal populations screaming to the central government for help - adding to the burdens of the Smith/La Follette Administration; its possible that the Battle of Bermuda flowed out of a (somewhat belated attempt) to upgrade the RN commitment in the Western Hemisphere to the point where it could strike a serious blow somewhere on the Eastern seaboard (one imagines this as a somewhat belated attempt to support Confederate operations in Pennsylvania - a British naval assault launched in tandem with Operation COALSCUTTLE would have made things even nastier for the US and might well have proved unpleasant even after Pittsburg).

    My suspicion is that Confederate commitments to the this particular battle would have been fairly minor - probably submarines and light support, but not much more (given the presumably parlous state of the Second Great War Confederate Navy).
     
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  7. bguy Donor

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    Maybe something akin to the naval battles off Guadalcanal where they are a whole series of battles covering everything from carrier fights to destroyer night attacks to a good old fashion dreadnought clash as the US and Royal Navies try to grind each other down.
     
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  8. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    Now that sounds like quite the epochal clash - a real heart breaker.
     
  9. EnglishCanuck Blogger/Writer/Dangerous Moderate

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    Interesting! Can you direct me to some of these posts on the Caribbean Campaign?

    Bermuda would be the culmination of a larger campaign. I've got some rough notes on it down (the British and the CSA conspiring to lock the Yankee's out past the Florida straights, British air power harassing the Yankee coast to pin down the American flyboys, codes being broken) but essentially it involves the British trying to 'bait' the Americans into a decisive battle, and then things really not going their way.

    The Confederates are bit players (committing with light forces) while the British do most of the heavy lifting with carrier groups. I think the US would have had many of its carriers out in the Pacific so the British (after their defeat of the Germans) decide to try and inflict another such on the US.
     
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  10. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    TL-191: Rivals - Confederates, Yankees, and the Banana Wars - 1900-1914, 1917-1939
    Yankees and Confederates in Mexico and the Caribbean: circa 1920-1938
    Confederates in the Caribbean: Second Great War -- 1941-1944
    Confederate Marines landing in Haiti under heavy fire in 1941
    Rafael Trujillo
    Charlie White Shooting down a Confederate Houndog
    Anastasio Somoza GarcĂ­a's visit with Jacob Featherston
    Confederate Cubans
    Jamaican soldiers during the Second Great War
    U-Day: The Invasion of Haiti - Crowne Beach, King Red Sector, 1941

    "The Bahamas - little more than sand, trees and a small Confederate Military base. Miller's reconnaissance team landed there almost a week ago. Since then - we've heard nothing. The waiting's over, we're going in. For all we know they're already dead. If what little we know about what the Confederates are doing to the Colored folk, it better not be true."
    "Years after the raid on the Bahamas, we're heading up an all-out assault on Confederate-occupied Haiti... No POW's to rescue this time... Our mission: take the airfield and find proof of their atrocities. Alongside familiar faces, fresh faced recruits. The older guys like Miller, Sergeant Sullivan and myself, we're known as "The old breed". "Old"... we're not even out of our twenties."


    "We're all numbed by all those dead Colored bodies. We just never knew anyone could be capable of doing that; I still can't believe it. Most of its population, in a blink of an eye, gone. Now it's down to me and me alone, to lead these men, my brothers, safely through this campaign. AA fire from Port-au-Prince airfield is knocking our planes right out of the sky. Taking this airfield is our only priority. Whatever the cost."

    "Though we've taken the airfield, the enemy still holds onto most of the inland areas of the island. A maze of trenches and artillery positions run right through this whole Godforsaken rock. The enemy's dug in deep and we have to get our hands dirty. Flamethrowers. We'll burn 'em out."

    "Getting this far has been tougher than any of us could ever have imagined. Taking the airfield and the mortar pits showed us that the enemy will fight to the death for every last inch of this rock. They're making their last stand in the jungles and caves that surround the heavy guns on the point. We take them... and we take back Haiti."

    "The Battle of Port-au-Prince finally came to an end in November of 1943. Three bitter months after it was supposed to. When we shipped out for Cuba, the airfield became a vital asset in the campaign. Among those stationed there are the crews of the US Navy Black Panthers. Men who would risk everything before they would leave any of us in enemy waters."

    "Status report? The last few months on Cuba have taken their toll... Morale is low. It's the rain, sir... and the mud. Barrels are getting bogged down. Supplies aren't getting through. We can't even get the wounded out. Yes, sir... Understood... "

    "Everything that was asked of us - we've done. Every night we lay in a filthy foxhole - prayin' the enemy won't slit our throats. Every day we spent crawling through the mud and the dirt while bullets whistled all around. But this is the last time we're gonna have to put our lives on the line. This is the enemy's last stand. When we take Habana, we go home. All of us."

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...federacy-tl-191.185493/page-155#post-17835517

    General J. Lawton Collins
    Map of the Caribbean Before the First Great War, 1914
    Modern Jamaican soldiers
     
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  11. RaspingLeech Member

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    One thing I've always wondered and could be elaborated upon would be the potential role of Franz Sigel in formulating the German-American alliance. Since the Civil War ends in 62, Sigel wouldn't have left the corps and even if he wouldn't have an active role after the war could still be influential in getting German immigrants to join. There could even be the idea of raising him up and giving him more credit than he deserves to maybe push the angle of "Germans and Americans are natural allies."

    Perhaps I Goes to Fight Mit Sigel would be a fairly popular trench song in the Great War as a result.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019 at 8:31 AM