TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

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    In the defense of Harrison, Taylor, and Scott
    • William Henry Harrison spent much of his life in Ohio. He's listed as Ohio on his ballet.
    • Taylor was a strong opponent of southern succession and disliked the crompramise of 1850.
    • Winfield Scott was one of the longest serving generals in US history, and spent most of his time in the North.
     
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  2. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    Zoidberg, I wanted to pop in and compliment you on your C$/U$ Currency ideas - it's a subject I toyed with myself once or twice but could never quite work out to my satisfaction - and while one will raise a few quibbles, I am definitely keen as mustard to see your further thoughts on the subject!:)

    - The first quibble I would like to raise is the suggestion that Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson be depicted on both the C$5.00 note AND the coin, for the sake of neatness (though this is, admittedly, probably far more tidy than real world currency!).


    - I would also like to suggest putting Thomas Jefferson on at least one Confederate coin or banknote; if memory serves the Confederate States were pleased to regard themselves as the TRUE heirs of the American Revolution (somewhat questionably, it might be argued) and it seems reasonable to deduce that the first President Jefferson would be well-enough regarded in the South to win a place on their currency (if this were on a banknote, Monticello or the University of Virginia might be on the other side).


    - I enjoyed the little in-joke of putting John C. Calhoun on Andrew Jackson's denomination; I'm shameless enough to suggest that the C$50.00 note should have a general from the War of Secession on it (possibly Robert E. Lee himself, as the most appropriate foil to Grant, or PGT Beauregard who - as FILLING THE GAPS would have it - followed a similar career path into the Presidency). I'm also tempted to suggest putting Jefferson Davis on the denominations where Mr Lincoln can be found in Our Own timeline!


    - One idea I've toyed with is that Confederate currency would use slightly higher denominations, to represent a slightly weaker currency VS the US dollar (so the smallest banknote in circulation might be a $5 rather than a $1); this may, however, be hard to support given that the books usually indicate a rough parity and mighty require a bit too much finicky detail work to keep straight besides.


    - Finally, I just wanted to note that I rather like the use of "Greybacks" for Confederate bank notes; the name makes particular sense as an equivalent to "greenbacks" hung on their Southern equivalent to avoid the unfortunate associations likely to be invoked by hand-sized strips of brown paper ...
     
  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh, what bill would he be on you think?
     
  4. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    Excellent question - I'd have to study the history of US currency and take a look over their short lived Confederate counterparts, but my natural instinct would be to take the path of least resistance and stick him on the five cent coin & two dollar note; as you may have gathered I'm a shamelessly lazy world builder in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" style.;)
     
  5. bguy Donor

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    Also Andrew Jackson (defeated the hated British at New Orleans and successfully faced down South Carolina while President.)

    There's really no reason the highly militaristic, nationalistic TL-191 U.S. should dislike any of these men as they were all military heroes who regardless of their southern birth faithfully served the United States their entire lives. (With Jackson, Taylor, and Scott in particular all having impeccable anti-secessionist credentials.)

    And to return to Washington, even putting aside his military record, his support for a strong central government and the commercial interests while President should also have made him popular in the Remembrance era, since those were key aspects of the Remembrance platform.
     
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  6. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    Winfield Scott also the general who lead America's last successful war (The first Mexican-American War which would itself have greater focus.) till the first Great War. Same for Zachary Taylor. There also John Paul Jones, von Steuben (Which @Alterwright made some good posts about), Wayne (Martyrdom) Jacob Brown, Oliver Hazard Perry, (DON'T GIVE UP THIS SHIP), and plenty of others the Remembrance Movement would uplift once you look around.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Confederates and Northerners are basically competing with each other over Washington and his legacy.
     
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  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it's because one narrative over another becomes popular to the common people.

    To scholars, Washington was certainly a person to be praised for his military exploits, regardless of his ancestry. To the rest of the average American populace, perhaps it matters more where you're from than what you do. As wrong as this narrative may be, someone could have used it to downplay a "Southern-born" politician for petty reasons and it just continued to remain popular once the idea of the Confederacy being its own country became more real and distinct, while winning wars against the USA. Insert "All Southerners are the same" mentality and you'll have a plausible scenario in which Washington declines in general popularity, except to the more educated individual.

    Andrew Jackson would be an exception to this due to stronger political reasons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes. There were Southerners that supported the union and were vehemently against secession, all committed to the idea of a United States --- I'm also sure that there would have been Northerners that would have supported the idea of secession or the encroachment of a central government or supported slavery. If anything the issue of remembering American historical figures for the people of TL-191 would be a complicated and messy issue. This is the consequence of having such a closely shared history and a major issue in nation building not only for the South, but for the North as well --- how do you create (or in the North's case re-create or adopt) national heroes when so many of the ones you want to revere are also revered by your hated enemy? And that shouldn't be an easy question to answer.

    Very good points. I still believe Washington would be lionized more by the Confederacy, but specifically he would be revered the most in Virginia. The rest of the South might look upon him with respect and admiration as well, but they would never take it as far as a Virginian perhaps --- War of Secession generals and Second Mexican War heroes however would be more relevant and much more highly praised in many states, but especially in their home states.

    For the North's view on Washington --- honestly, to me, its going to be complicated. Washington would be one of the most controversial and hotly contested presidents in terms how each side should remember him. United States scholars will acknowledge his political efforts during his actual presidency and perhaps even respect him for establishing the conduct of how a president should act - setting a precedence and such. But to revere him the same way as a Southern Virginian would? That would either be out of the question or highly, highly frowned upon in the United States academic sphere, discouraged even. And in a time where espionage, suspicion, and intense national rivalry could easily culminate into wars, where differences in opinions on how to view certain things can plausibly result in you getting hurt, it would be hard for a Yankee to openly praise Washington.

    While presidents like Jackson and Taylor were southerners, the real clincher there is that yankees could more easily embrace them just for the fact that they supported the union of the United States and would be especially hated by southerners because of it. Actions in their case would speak very loudly. Someone like Washington though... again, he'd be more complicated, especially since southerners would still look upon him in high regard, while in the North there is a more cynical view of Washington. Sure the North could embrace him more perhaps and venerate him through the Remembrance ideology, but it shouldn't be underestimated that the north has more relevant warrior heroes to embrace than previously thought of. Teddy and Custer for example, the few commanding officers that saw success in the Second Mexican War, the veneration of foreign revolutionary war heroes like Von Steuben and Pulaski and others --- the veneration of rank and file soldiers even.

    For sure though, the legacy of Washington would be one of contention and competition between the two sides --- about how to remember him, how to venerate him, and how to interpret his actions to fit in nicely into their national narratives post-War of Secession.
     
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  9. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    I think that's the more interesting part: North and South sorting Pre-War of Secession figures and it being far more then the lines of where they was born. An good case being James L. Petigru. Mr "South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum." An man who stood against both SC during the Nullification crisis and then the War of Secession. Southerns like Polk, Winfield Scott, Taylor, and most of all Andrew Jackson represents those who would be uplifted as 'True Americans and not those lot of Arnolds down South.' Same for I mention for John Sevier and Sam Houston. (They named that part of Texas after the man so...)

    Another thing to think about is the North having an great deal of love and respect for German, immigrant, and Non-American figures while the South is largely 'homegrown' aside for some Freach and British figures like Napoleon III and Queen Victoria. (And love for Freach and British culture.)

    I would truly love to explore the 'Case for Washington' of how the North and even the South deals with and looks at Washington. As you said how to remember him, how to venerate him, and how to interpret his actions. Same for maybe even there always an group in the Union that still holds George Washington deal or something like that.
     
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  10. TR1 Well-Known Member

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    Calhoun was on the dollar note. American Front, pg. 138.
     
  11. TR1 Well-Known Member

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    Daniel Webster was on the quarter. Breakthroughs, pg. 141.
     
  12. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    I really do like the idea, whatever else, that George Washington gets a massive rehabilitation post-Second Great War even if I can respect the idea he never regains mythic status. He was southern aristocrat but did once state in a North-South split he'd support the North and he came to view slavery as distasteful. He also supported the ultimately Northern-leaning Federalist Party.

    In many ways, rehabilitating his image as someone who despised the south's worst excesses while admitting he was the pinnacle of what southerners hoped to be - the ultimate American - works well for a re-united USA mythos. Same for the capital eventually moving de-facto back to Washington, DC to complement its de-jure status. He helped unite all the states in OTL, why couldn't he do it a second time in TTL, yanno?

    EDIT: Forgot to mention Jake Featherston despised Washington and actually considered him a damnyankee. If THAT'S not a plus in his favor as a figure to re-unite all good-minded-and-hearted people in all the states...
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  13. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    When did he predict about a possible North-South split?

    I don't remember reading about Featherston not liking Washington. Which book did he say this?

    I do concur with the idea that Washington, D.C. becomes the capital of the United States, again.
     
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  14. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes. It would have to be the capital again, wouldn't it? I guess the question is whether or not the US Federal Government would agree to move there again, after the city has been rebuilt and cleared of debris of course. Shouldn't be a problem I don't think.
     
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  15. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    Question to everyone. (@Alterwright, @Allochronian, @Joshua Ben Ari, @Tiro, @bguy.)

    Any idea for why the name of Operation Blackbeard? Yes, he was an fearsome Pirate and the most well known of them all, but why name what was supposed the Confederate knockout blow to the Union after an Pirate who was the terror of the Carolinas?
     
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  16. bguy Donor

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    From a Doylist perspective Operation Blackbeard was the TL-191 equivalent of OTL's Operation Barbarossa. And Barbarossa literally translates as "Red Beard." Thus it's just a play on that name.

    From a Watsonian perspective, there's no real way to know since military operation names aren't suppose to follow any logical naming criteria. And certainly Blackbeard is a more impressive name for a military operation than some of OTL's most famous military operational names. (Seriously, who thought Market Garden was a good name for a serious military operation?)
     
  17. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    Barbarossa made sense for the Germans given Frederick Barbarossa legacy status among medieval emperors and for Germany. And although your right that military operation names don't always follow logical naming, Longstreet seem more likely. Why? Because Longstreet the one who lead the Confederates to beat the Americans two times in an row. (War of Secession with Lee and the Second Mexican-American War as President.)

    One thing I think I remember is here on the site an Blackbeard movie was made in the South and it was so well love even Featherston liked it to the point of naming the Invasion of the North Blackbeard.

    The other reason is maybe given Blackbeard's fearsome reputation and terror and infamy, it would be alike of the Confederacy 'terrorizing' the Union into giving up. (Not that it worked...)
     
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  18. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

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    It's a reference to Hitler's Opperation Barbarossa: Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.

    Barbarossa was a German king, famous for his red beard.

    Blackbeard has, well, a black beard.

    EDIT: oops, sorry, didn't see that there were responses on the next page
     
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  19. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh! That be an easy one!

    Harry Turtledove wanted to make the Confederate offensive into the United States have allusions to the German invasion of the Soviet Union in OTL - Operation Barbarossa. In Italian, the name Barbarossa means "red beard" - a physical trait the northern Italians that Frederick Barbarossa ruled over didn't miss. The Germans he ruled over popularly named him Kaiser Rotbart, or "Emperor Red Beard". So in english the German invasion of the Soviet Union can be roughly translated to Operation "Red Beard".

    Turtledove, I assume, wanted some allusions to the invasion in OTL, possibly to draw a comparison to how massive and important this Confederate invasion was in this timeline, but also to score some brownie historical reference points with history buffs. Even the start date for the invasion of the United States is the same - June 22nd. Red Beard, Black Beard, same thing.
     
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  20. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I am assuming that you want an in-universe answer to this question, correct ?

    I've thought about it for a while, but I'd like to think that Featherston found a book on Blackbeard the Pirate by chance somewhere in a library after becoming president, read it, liked the character, and decided use the name when planning for the Confederate invasion of the USA.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019