TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. TITUP Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Location:
    St. Louis, Missouri

    I can certainly see this aspect being played up. German tourism in the USA between the Wars is certainly not to be understated given the "special relationship" between Germany and the United States. Given the Kaiser's affinity for both Roosevelt and the romance of the American west, the idea of Sauerkraut Westerns is perfect as I can see him playing heavy handed with post great war "Kultur." Just another enjoyable by product of the Teuto-American alliance.
     
    Alterwright and Odinson like this.
  2. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Why not have Herr May make his Winnetou member of a tribe that sided with/was employed by the United States during the period of plausibly deniable border raids between the North & the South? (I remember the Comanches being mentioned by Custer as Border Reavers working under sponsorship for the US in the opening chapter of HOW FEW REMAIN).

    This would allow Our Heroes to make pleas for Greater Toleration of the First Nations, while remaining poised to do their relations with the Confederate States absolutely BRUTAL harm.
     
  3. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    By the way, excellent article on Northern Holidays of note TITUP!:)
     
    TITUP and Alterwright like this.
  4. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
     
    Zoidberg12 likes this.
  5. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
     
  6. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    This needs to be a thing in the TL-191 fandom. I love it!

    I find New Year's Day, Union Day, Remembrance Day, Fourth of July, May Day, and Christmas to be holidays that can easily exist in TL-191. Nice explanations, Polish Eagle!

    However, Thanksgiving is a bit more uncertain because in real-life, it was officially made into a holiday by Lincoln in 1863. I'm inclined to view Thanksgiving as a minor holiday with varying days of celebration and for different reasons, both in the public square and in the private one. Washington's Birthday... ehh… I see it becoming a minor holiday, albeit still being officially recognized by the USA government.

    I can definitely see European holidays/traditions having more of an influence in TL-191 USA before, during, and after the Second Great War.

    Perhaps Leif Erikson Day is a bigger deal of a holiday on par with Columbus Day? :p
     
    Odinson and rob2001 like this.
  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
     
    Zoidberg12 and Odinson like this.
  8. TITUP Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Location:
    St. Louis, Missouri
    You are very right about Thanksgiving in OTL. For my article I quoted from President Mahan's outstanding Henry Cabot Lodge narrative found in post #1382 (link below for your reference) which specifically describes the modern creation of Thanksgiving celebrations in 1914.


    BL: Thanksgiving had long been a regional new England holiday, and even if we did not consider President Mahan's work canon on par with Craigo's (as I do!) I do not think it that far of a stretch to see TL-191's Roosevelt pulling an analogous move similar to OTL's Lincoln.


    I do agree with your thoughts on Washington's birthday. Was a federal holiday long before the point of divergence but I don't see it being actually celebrated much outside of the federal workforce.


    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-filling-the-gaps.148857/page-70#post-10984157
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
    Alterwright likes this.
  9. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
    These were very good either way. Thanks for the doing them! The new holidays here were especially fun to read.
     
    Odinson likes this.
  10. Spencer Pease Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    I think it should be that after the Great Wars, Remembrance Day evolved into a fusion of OTL Veterans and Memorial Day, commemorating those who served and died for the United States.
     
  11. TITUP Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Location:
    St. Louis, Missouri
    I can see that!
     
    Alterwright likes this.
  12. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
    With how prevalent the Remembrance Ideology was in the United States, it could indeed be a major US holiday - a super "Veterans'-Memorial Day", one where it is readily observed and taken rather seriously. Seeing as there were two devastating wars that took place on the continent, this version of Remembrance Day be seen as a day of healing perhaps? Instead of one of anger and revenge.
     
    Odinson likes this.
  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
    You know, I know its not technically canon for TL-191, but I do imagine that Black-Americans or Black-Confederates joined the US Army and fought at the front. I don't know, I just feel like that would be a thing even in this timeline. Would be nice at least. I know they fought as guerrillas and scouts, but I mean as part of the actual US Army, like the USCT from the Civil War.
     
    Zoidberg12 likes this.
  14. TITUP Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Location:
    St. Louis, Missouri

    Only issue I see is in TL-191 the USA's black population is considerably smaller than OTL given no "Great Migration" as we saw in our own timeline. The books also make it pretty plain that US Blacks were not admitted into the regular US. Army until 1944. In "The Grapple" Flora Hamburger pushes for the admittance of US Blacks into combat positions after the discovery of Camp Determination, but it is not until "In At The Death," as the war was drawing to a close, that President La Follete issued an executive order barring discrimination in the armed forces on the basis of race. He also pledged to introduce civil rights legislation into Congress to protect all blacks under U.S. jurisdiction. The first time we see direct reference to Blacks being accepted into the US Army is page 171 of "In at the Death" when Maj Moss and Capt Cantarella are informed of the new policy after their liberation in the spring of 1944.

    The books are pretty clear that black citizens of the USA did serve in the Navy as cooks and in other support roles, but before President La Follette's 1944 executive order I don't see there being enough political pressure (or even the population to support) entire units comprised of African Americans on par with OTL's USTC. US Blacks did serve the US Army in non-combat roles like Cincinnatus Driver (who admittedly did see combat during logistical operations gone wrong), and Confederate Blacks did fight alongside the US Army in an auxiliary/scouting role, but this is very different than dedicated combat units.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
    Odinson and Joshua Ben Ari like this.
  15. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Location:
    The Constitutional Monarchy of Virginia
    I am not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I've been wondering: could Irving Morrel possibly pull a Grant and become president of the United States at some point?
     
  16. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Location:
    Santa Marta,Magdalena,West Venezuela
    If he wanted it, he could, he could be both Grant and Eisenhowher(well Ironwher is there too) ITTL, dunno if he wanted, he did was political but was mostly a career militaryman...is 50/50(i remember of irony the other thread use adenaer photo as old morell)
     
    Joshua Ben Ari and Odinson like this.
  17. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Location:
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Alterwright, I've really been enjoying your posts on the reputations of pre-POD historical figures, as well as your post on German soldiers in the American West. I thought it was very interesting how the different biases amongst those in different nations have shaped the collective national views of different historical figures.

    Speaking of pre-POD historical figures, what are the portraits on the money of this world's United States and Confederate States? I think it the book it mentioned John Adams was on a US dollar coin, but what about the other units of USA and CSA currency?
     
    Historyman 14 and Odinson like this.
  18. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    Become president? Yes.

    He already is in my headcanon.

    Pull a Grant? No, he pulled an EISENHOWER.
     
    Nivek and Odinson like this.
  19. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Location:
    The Constitutional Monarchy of Virginia
    Grant, Eisenhower, same difference. Both were great generals.
     
    Nivek likes this.
  20. dmg86 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Grant however was a poor president.
     
    Nivek and Dante like this.