TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Syuzeren Wyyt on DA

    Jul 14, 2015
    T-191b: The Presbyterian Butcher (Part I)

    Divergence within a divergence...

    First, how could the Entente have won the first war? It seems clear that in the beginning of the war, the lack of clear naval superiority was skewed in the Entente's side, with the more numerous and more supplied vessels being able to contain the American and German fleets to relatively contained areas in the North Atlantic, all the while performing with generally unmolested freedom of movement in the rest of the seas, especially with Japan almost certainly tying down any German ships in the Pacific. 1914 can be defined as a good point for a more successful use of modern naval logistics and strategy on the Entente's side for beginning the divergence we need. Only some small differences in battle, and all of the sudden the majority of the German fleet is wiped out, and the American fleet is contained. This leaves the Pacific. But, with the Central Powers all but barred from intercontinental communications, this effectively cuts off the United States from its allies in Europe.

    The Pacific becomes a problem when one realises how little the Japanese were willing to leave their comfort zones in support of the Entente effort. American ships were not harassed in their formations off the Pacific coast, despite the existence of Victoria Island as an excellent staging point for Entente efforts against the Americans. Lobbying by the British government may have promised the Japanese a leg up on negotiations against the Russian Empire, which may have gone stale after the war began, despite the two powers holding conflicting views of north Asian claims and borders. Tokyo, now confident in Britain's future support against Russia, would move up past the Sandwich Isles to Victoria, where a sizable fleet could force the Americans into their ports.

    Issues regarding supplies could be solved for the South. Richmond would be free to ship in manufactured goods from Europe in exchange for crops, which would have been the most important export the CSA was capable of. With food feeding Entente troops, most of the Germans would begin to starve. 1915 would turn into a race to break the stalemate, which favoured the Entente simply by nature of logistics. While the CSA's supplies were inadequate when compared to the USA, the nature of the North's war on two fronts, its inability to trade, and its isolated diplomatic place would mean that any ingenuity cooked up could begin to break it. Not to mention, strategically speaking, the lines of supply were much harsher for the USA. Long trails would have to be maintained to keep supply in as distant places as the underdeveloped New Mexico all the way to the moonscaped Ontario Front. While it is likely that the American assault against Canada would be relatively successful, the ability to maintain such a large front appears more and more unlikely. Confederate assaults would not need to pass the Susquehanna to successfully wear down the Americans.

    The Mormon Uprising in 1915 would have been crucial in isolating the already undermanned Pacific coast of the USA from centres of supply in the east. During this time, it is unlikely that needed repairs and upkeep of ships would have been possible. With full knowledge of the uprising, the Entente would have taken advantage of this, and destroyed what Pacific fleets exist. In a mirror of the Second Mexican War, British troops could land and occupy San Francisco, destroying the morale of the American public in the West, all the while reinvigorating attempts by troops in British Columbia, getting resupply from Victoria, to begin a counteroffensive south, possibly taking Seattle. By the end of 1915, it would have been almost impossible for the US to continue conduct of the war under these conditions unless a major victory came soon. And as promises of Germans reaching Paris and Americans reaching Toronto starting to fade in honesty, the only thing stopping the US was the halt of Confederate forces during the Autumn of 1915 as the Red Rebellions paralysed the CSA.

    Even with a significant portion of the population rising, some estimates saying between a sixth and a fifth of the population acting at least civilly obstinate during this time, the CSA was able to hold the line against only meager counterattacks and unplanned pushes from a disorganised and panicking American general staff. By Spring of 1916, most of the large Red Republics were simply a memory, with effective leadership destroyed or forced into hiding into strategically unimportant areas. Most of the CSA returned to business as usual. In fact, many blacks in the CSA were then given the opportunity to join up to win citizenship, which many took. The newfound swelling of the ranks, especially in artillery and aboard river monitors, made it possible for the CSA, by the Autumn of 1916, to reach the Illinois river, maintain a semblance of control over the Mississippi, conquer the whole of Maryland and New Jersey, and approach the de facto capitol the USA. With Roosevelt refusing to flee, he finally broke down and agreed to an armistice.

    Formation of the dictatorship...

    With most international finance existing in London, it cannot be stated how important British loans to the CSA were necessary to keep the country afloat after the war. While not suffering much fighting from enemies, the domestic war fought during the Red Rebellions were enough to damage the Confederate economy and plunge it into a desperate state. Much of the British loans were paid off either in raw gold or extensions of contracts for shipping crops and cotton to the British, which it could in turn sell to Europe for massive profits. The CSA lost two things after the war: a large amount of international credit, now being in debt to London, as well as the ability to rely on its foremost trading partner to continue its underdeveloped agrarian economy. The USA was completely stripped. Superior and most of northern Minnesota, Washington until Seattle, and all of Maine were taken from it. Deseret was freed as an independent "republic", while New Mexico, the southern portion of Missouri (dubbed Ozark), West Virginia (reintegrated into Virginia), and Maryland found themselves in Confederate hands. The rest of the Pacific coast, while still American, was more or less isolated.

    Pittsburgh was in crisis. Resigning, along with most of his cabinet, before the final treaties which ended the war could be signed, Roosevelt moved back to Dakota and died shortly after. Remembered as a national hero, the Socialists who now led the country were blamed. For everything. Although they also took credit for the short-lived recovery in 1919-1922, built by Confederate investment and attempted rejuvenation of the Northern economy so as to build up a reliable economy which could buy Southern exports, the financial crash of February 1923 could not have come at a worse time, as the Socialists were reelected shortly beforehand. The strength of the London market was never questioned, but when speculation and investment into the defeated economies did not return the sums expected, everything came crashing down. By mid 1924, the military, cut in funding and blamed for its failure, managed to work with the Soldiers Circle group and take control of New York City, Chicago, Boston, and most importantly: Pittsburgh.

    General Custer was the head of the junta, known as the Blue Coup, and declared the illegality of the Socialist party, the restoration of the constitution, and the determination of the USA to seek revenge against its neighbours. Confederate troops moved in and surrounded Pittsburgh with the assistance of American Loyalists who disregarded the legitimacy of the Blue Coup. During the event, California, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington seceded to form the United States of Pacifica. The CSA, Deseret, and Japan immediately recognised them. Other nations followed suit. After only eight months, the Blue Coup was disarmed with only a few fights. Most of the military did not support the newfound dictators of the USA. Many of the SC troops which were rallied with the junta were defeated or talked down. Confederate troops withdrew and the USA's Socialist leadership was returned to power. Custer was put on trial, found guilty, and given life in prison, while other lower level members of the coup were executed or fled before capture to Germany, the South, Mexico, or Brazil. During this time, Gordon McSweeney had killed three Confederates, a pack of Reds, and contributed to the Defense of Pittsburgh, only to have been ordered to stand down by his superiors before fleeing to Cleveland. This helped form the McSweeney that would later lead a successful democratic takeover of the USA.

    Abner Dowling had during this period been a rather influential character. Initially supporting the Blue Coup, and rising to its upper echelon through his connection to Custer and decidedly anti-Socialist opinions, it can be said that the failure of the seizure and restoration of the Socialist administration can be pinned on him. He met with both Loyalists and Entente forces in Detroit, a Loyalist stronghold, to try and renegotiate the terms of the Treaty of Washington. Given his escort to these areas, it can be surmised that at least to some unspoken level, the goals of the Blue Coup were not a total restructuring of society from the top down in the USA, but rather a violent attempt to give the USA a better chance at recovering after economic woes seized the country. But, unfruitful, Dowling finally turned in his fellow Blues and worked with Loyalists in securing the captured areas and talking down members of the SC. For this, he was allowed to lead the new Northern war department, after most of the talent had fled or been tried.

    McScweeney, aware of these facts, had a burning hatred evolve in him. One which cast aside huge numbers of his country, including the secessionists in the newfound Pacifica which were trying to stitch themselves back into the United States. California demanded more representation and to move the capital to somewhere more central, such as Chicago or Denver, so that Western needs would be better sought to. In exchange for the rejoining of Pacifica, the capital was de facto and de jure moved to Chicago, where many of the Socialist administration found themselves at home, even though the Defense of Chicago had been the bloodiest and hardest to disentangle, due to the nature of the SC and Blues defending it. The crisis, McScweeney saw, only proved to levee harsher penalties on the USA, and lead to more domestic crisis. Radical leftist groups, some calling themselves Soviets, had begun to seek out and attack anyone who could be called a Blue. McScweeney, hoping to avoid being caught, changed his name to Isaac Langley and moved to Chicago in order to work with other ex-members of the SC and supporters of the Blues in a network known as the Securist Legion. The Securists believed in many different, contradicting ideas. But, McScweeney managed to define the Legion into something specific, digestible, and marketable.

    Tragedy is a revolution's best friend...

    The newly made Isaac Langley worked with the SL and the underground SC to help bring back notable Blue Coupers from the South and Germany, with Pershing being one. In 1929 they attempted to assassinate Dowling who had been working with the inspection authorities to guarantee the USA's abstention from anti-treaty regulation, or more realistically, to make sure that they were bribed enough to allowed the USA's military to continue to exist in its damaged and demoralised state. The failure of this assassination lead to a widespread panic across the USA. This showed in the 1930 elections, when the Socialists, who pledged to crackdown on domestic traitors and terrorists, won easily, despite their continued blame for the failure of the war and the economic depravity. While most of the world was on the process to recovery, the USA continued to lag behind. Confederate economics had more or less returned to normal, with the government having bought up excess goods and sold them to Europe, itself in need of restructuring, as well as Russia, after its Civil War ended with the Republicans maintaining power and the Bolsheviks being forced to flee their failed revolution.

    Tragedy in the USA attracted some of these fleeing revolutionaries. Soviets in America welcomed them with open arms, and the Soviet Community of Portland, in Oregon, proved to be incredibly efficient at fostering and taking care of these Reds. Langley despised this, and began a series of tirades in the churches he attended and SL meetings he attended. By 1932, the Securist Party was winning seats in the House of Representatives. One from Illinois, one from Indiana, and one from Vermont, to be precise. A number of other parties had formed after the Democrats imploded after the war, including the Farmer's Party, the Constitution Party, the Progressive Party, and the Pacific Party. These all had their own meager shares of the vote, while the Socialists continued to dominate. The Republican Party still existed, and Langley's hope was that he and other members of the Securists could hijack it and reform it into something that could save the USA.


    Here's some musings on a reimagined McSweeney scenario. I like the idea of him ending up as David Judge, the Chief of America, who leads the country to a war against the Rebs, Reds, and Brits.
  2. Syuzeren Wyyt on DA

    Jul 14, 2015
    T-191b: The Presbyterian Butcher (Part II)

    Hijack the system!

    The elections of 1934 were interesting, because for the first time since their formation the DNC was not competitive enough to be a major contendor. Instead, from 1932 to the elections, voters and pollsters alike were surprised to see the GOP return to political relevancy. The Socialists were forced out of office, after the new GOP, headed by a man named David Judge who had seemingly come out of nowhere. The Securists were relatively well known, and their work with the military proved to be popular amongst the bourgeoisie of the urban centres and the religious in the rural ones. The Midwest carried a lot of sympathy with the earlier Blue Coup, and thus when the Republican Party was taken over by Custer apologists, it seemed rather natural. The Pacific coast was also being flooded with disturbed internal refugees. The failures of agriculture meant that these apologists came into conflict with those who were proud of the West Coast's temporary infatuation with independence.

    The startling rise of the GOP and of David Judge did indeed shock everyone. President Joseph I. France, from New England, paid lip service to Socialist ideals, and proved to be a moderate. But his assurance to the landowning class of protection and rescission of some Socialist land reform and tax policies made him stand firmly in the GOP crowd. But no one was watching Mr. France, instead the country was focused on his writhing, preaching, spitting VP. David Judge spoke fury, and was always in the papers. His dedication to the armed forces, his work with France to pardon all those involved in the Blue Coup, and his harsh talk to the CSA and former Entente made him immensely popular. Soon, the message began to spread: the country is in the gutter because of the Reds, who were waiting to take over! They let the Mormons rise up, they rose up, they let the Confederates win! They stalled advancements in Canada! The American flag would be flying over the whole North American continent if not for the Reds!

    Although technically having died in 1929, George Custer was more alive than ever. Soon, construction began on his memorial. Custer's Legion formed, and replaced the 1st Divsion. This honour system continued. The rest of the American military began this process. The Union blues began to be passed out again. Washington's Legion (7th Infantry Division) caused an international ruckus when in the Spring of 1936 they were found to have been forcing Mormons out of Salt Lake City, and were given permission to settle their families there. Soon, the practice of the Mormon faith, as well as other "subversive and alien practices" were highly regulated and outlawed. The courts saw fit to challenge the legality of this after a series of synagogues were targeted by the unofficial, but de facto paramilitary wing of the GOP, Soldier's Circle. President France simply put enough judges in to let this happen.

    Dissent is un-American!

    On July 5th 1937, France resigned. Judge was made president. The country was different. Everyone knew it. The conscription acts had flagrantly disregarded treaty restrictions. Industry was being forcibly built across the nation. Mormons, Catholics, and Jews were being arrested and shipped to work camps in the Rockies and mines in Appalachia. The governor of Massachusetts, a prominent Socialist, was assassinated by a man recently discharged from Roosevelt's Legion (56th Infantry Division) who had worked as an officer alongside the Blue Coup and who battled the Confederates in Ohio. Since, the man named Gregory Adams, had been going by the name Yeshuah Adamson. He was released without pardon by federal officials in the newfound Central Intelligence Bureau. Judge granted the CIB unconstitutional levels of power, and allowed them to spread across the country.

    One particular example of abuse came with a Yiddish family, the Tralowitz family, in San Francisco in December of 1937. A CIB agent, having gotten confirmation of the production of "alien" materials, specifically Hebrew and Yiddish learning books, dispatched a notice to the primarily minority neighbourhood of Pearly Gardens in the lower East Cut. Two police wagons pulled up outside of the Tralowitz residence on a Saturday, sure that the family would be home, and out came a mix of members of the SFPD and CIB. They found in the building a number of offences, some from the previous administration, including "hoarding of ration tickets" and "alien materials". Abraham Tralowitz, who was the brother of a rabbi and head of the household, was killed while resisting arrest. His daughter, of only fourteen, was also killed for trying to leave the scene without permission. A neighbour, named Miguel Duranguez, was shot and later died while leaving his home and "scaring" a CIB agent who was standing guard. None of this was revealed to the public. But, this was the machinations of the new administration.

    A reinterpretation of the constitution found that the freedom of religion really only intended for the freedom to practice religions not in control by "alien powers", such as Papalism or Judaism. As well, the practitioners and followers of Joseph Smith were declared false in their belief, because Joseph Smith was obviously a liar. Official documents were brought to light and widely publicised which proved this case in the newspapers, many of which were being harsh fines for sedition, or being appointed editors by locally set up Publication Approval Groups which usually reported to a local Republican in state government or head of a Soldier's Circle troop. In reality, only Protestant religions were tolerated, and even those who practised Anglicanism were routinely harassed. Another few groups, Baptists and Methodists, came under attack for their "admiration of the enemy; the Confederacy and its Evil", with many Baptist churches being forced into new locations or monitored by CIB agents. Pastors who did not follow the move were prosecuted.

    Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, Refuge of None!

    With so much focus being pinned on aliens, the Judge administration also sought to find and deport as many un-Americans as possible. The Bureau for American Affairs (BAA) was set up and was given the power to extrajudiciously imprison and put to trial anyone accused of un-American activities. The first large, and widely broadcasted through radio, trials took place with a coordinated effort of the CIB to find and detain and the BAA to try and sentence members of the Portland Soviet. Other Soviets in Boise and Los Angeles were caught and tried. In New York City, the headquarters of two Socialist candidates in the city were taken with use of eminent domain to be reutilised as office space for the BAA. In the upper floors of some of these town-house condos trials took place without an elected judge or sheriff present. Only appointed members of the BAA.

    Immigrants were immediately suspect. Those not willing to adapt to American standards did not belong in America. English was passed as the official language, and immigration all but stopped. Schools began dropping foreign language from their curriculum, but on the insistence of senior members of the Securist faction of the GOP, a new "Dialect Class" was added in place of foreign language. This taught children how to speak with and spot foreign accents, especially focusing on Southern, Canadian, English, and French accents. Judge was no fool, he hoped this would come in handy in raising a generation of new spies.

    The director of the BAA, Herbert Yardley, began coordinating with the CIB, who he had helped form before being hand-picked to lead the BAA, expanded the powers of the federal government to unprecedented levels. The BAA bypassed state laws and ignored state governments in their actions. They also proved very successful at dragging out or sidestepping court cases or accusations of abuse. Although it was clear in many of the memos and statements of Yardley that the actions of the BAA were outside of the reach of the constitution, it was also important to remind those working under him that the "future of these United States depends on us... divided we fall, so undivided we must stand. Action will circumvent the so-called legal status of this Agency's operations... actions will speak for the effectiveness of the Bureau." Because of this, many were sentenced to death or deportation. Treason or sedition.

    Recently immigrated individuals found themselves immediately harassed. What use are they? Would they be willing to move? Immigrants realised the path to citizenship had become much different than the USA of before. Now, the federal government claimed immigrants as "non-citizen dependents" and assigned them jobs and housing. The Bureau for Dependent Housing (BDH) came to fruition to work with local authorities in buying or acquiring property to house "dependents" as they were forcibly moved to farms in the Midwest, factories in Chicago, and along the Mason-Dixon Line, where border towns were being built and encouraged by local state governments. Judge ordered this protocol to make sure that ample supply depots existed close to the front in the inevitable outbreak of war. Most just figured it was easier for business, since after all, the CSA was still the USA's biggest trade partner. Some even thought, despite all the humbug and huzzbuzz in Philadelphia, that war with the Southern neighbour was now thoroughly impossible, after recovery had begun. The arms build up did not solidify this.


    A look at the inner workings of Judge's (McSweeney's) first term and the changes to American society. Most of his ambitions are falling into place, and upon reelection he can hope for his war.
  3. TITUP Active Member

    Jun 1, 2017
    St. Louis, Missouri

    Syuzeren, well done sir! I appreciate what you have done to flush out some of the details behind the divergence within a divergence (especially the work regarding Custer).

    Having said that, and as much as I enjoyed reading it, might I suggest this post and continued "alternate-alternate history" be continued in one of the other forums better suited to the topic? I know the spirit of this Filling the Gaps Thread has been pretty consistent over 150 pages (and many years) of attempting to stay true to the spirit of Turtledove's original work and then that built upon by Craigo. There are some other really excellent threads dealing with the Presbyterian Butcher (one started by our very own Trio) which I will post below.

    I would simply suggest this Thread remain dedicated to its original intent which is to fill in the Gaps of the original TL-191 universe and your great work be posted in a more apropos forum.
    New Cleo Genesis and Syuzeren like this.
  4. Syuzeren Wyyt on DA

    Jul 14, 2015
    Thank you for the compliment! Sorry, I got a little excited with the talk of the McSweeney topic and wanted to toss a few ideas into the ring. I've read Trio's work, and it is great inspiration to everyone who thinks of the what-if within the what-if. I will make my thread regarding the topic and leave the FTG free of off-topic talk of the like in the future.
  5. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2015
    A Very Happy New Year to one and all!:)
  6. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Nov 27, 2018
    I don't know if it's already been mentioned or not, but it's states in How Few Remain that the American bison has been hunted to extinction.
    New Cleo Genesis likes this.
  7. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

    May 4, 2009
    Santa Marta,Magdalena,West Venezuela
    Damn..and no Ted Turner to saved them....
  8. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Nov 27, 2018
    It also mentions the passenger pigeon is even closer to extinction in the 1880s
  9. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, so I figured why not finish up and post some governor lists that I've been working on. I hope to have the lists of the governors of every US and CS state done soon. I also hope, sooner rather than later, to finish up and post some articles that I have saved on a word doc that currently unfinished. Anyways, enjoy!

    List of Governors of Wisconsin

    8. Edward Salomon (Republican) (1862-1864)
    9. James Taylor Lewis (Republican) (1864-1866)

    10. William Robert Taylor (Democratic) (1866-1872)
    11. Cadwallader C. Washburn (Republican) (1872-1878)
    12. Harrison Ludington (Republican) (1876-1878)
    13. William E. Smith (Republican) (1878-1882)

    14. Charles Durwin Parker (Democratic) (1882-1887)
    15. Jeremiah M. Rusk (Republican) (1887-1889)
    16. William D. Hoard (Republican) (1889-1891)

    17. George W. Peck (Democratic) (1891-1895)
    18. Charles Jonas (Democratic) (1895-1896)
    19. David Stuart Rose (Democratic) (1896-1899)

    20. Edward Scofield (Republican) (1899-1901)
    21. Robert M. La Follette, Sr. (Socialist) (1901-1908)
    22. James O. Davidson (Socialist) (1908-1910)

    23. Francis E. McGovern (Democratic) (1910-1915)
    24. Emanuel L. Philipp (Republican) (1915-1919)
    25. John J. Blaine (Democratic) (1919-1925)
    26. Fred Zimmerman (Republican) (1925-1929)
    27. Walter J. Kohler, Sr. (Democratic) (1929-1933)
    28. Albert G. Schmedeman (Democratic) (1933-1935)

    29. Philip La Follette (Socialist) (1935-1939)
    30. Julius P. Heil (Republican) (1939-1941)
    31. Orland Steen Loomis (Socialist) (1941-1942)
    32. Walter Goodland (Socialist) (1942- )

    † = Died in Office

    List of Governors of Iowa

    5. Samuel J. Kirkwood (Republican) (1860-1864)
    6. William M. Stone (Republican) (1864-1868)
    7. Samuel Merrill (Republican) (1868-1872)
    8.Cyrus C. Carpenter (Republican) (1872-1876)
    9. Joshua G. Newbold (Republican) (1876-1880)
    10. John H. Gear (Republican) (1880-1882)

    11. Horace Boies (Democratic) (1882-1886)
    12. William Larrabee (Republican) (1886-1890)
    13. Samuel Lucius Bestow (Democratic) (1890-1892)
    14. Frank D. Jackson (Republican) (1892-1896)
    15. Francis M. Drake (Democratic) (1896-1900)
    16. Leslie M. Shaw (Democratic) (1900-1904)
    17. Albert B. Cummins (Democratic) (1904-1910)
    18. Warren Garst (Democratic) (1910-1911)
    19. Beryl F. Carroll (Democratic) (1911-1915)

    20. George W. Clarke (Republican) (1915-1919)
    21. William L. Harding (Republican) (1919-1923)

    22. Daniel Webster Turner (Democratic) (1923-1927)
    23. John Hammill (Republican) (1927-1931)
    24. Clyde L. Herring (Democratic) (1931-1935)
    25. Nelson G. Kraschel (Democratic) (1935-1937)
    26. George A. Wilson (Democratic) (1937-1941)
    27. Bourke B. Hickenlooper (Democratic) (1941-1943)
    28. Robert D. Blue (Democratic) (1943- )
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  10. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    List of Governors of Nebraska

    1. Julius Sterling Morton (Democratic) (1867-1873)
    2. Robert W. Furnas (Republican) (1873-1875)
    3. Silas Garber (Republican) (1875-1879)
    4. Albinus Nance (Republican) (1879-1883)

    5. James E. Boyd (Democratic) (1883-1887)
    6. James W. Dawes (Republican) (1887-1891)

    7. Lorenzo Crounse (Democratic) (1891-1895)
    8. Silas Holcomb (Republican) (1895-1899)
    9. William A. Poynter (Republican) (1899-1903)

    10. Ezra P. Savage (Democratic) (1903-1905)
    11. John H. Mickey (Republican) (1905-1909)
    12. George L. Sheldon (Democratic) (1907-1909)
    13. Ashton C. Shallenberger (Democratic) (1909-1911)

    14. Chester H. Aldrich (Republican) (1911-1915)
    15. John H. Morehead (Democratic) (1915-1917)
    16. Keith Neville (Democratic) (1917-1919)

    17. Samuel Roy McKelvie (Republican) (1919-1923)
    18. Charles W. Bryan (Democratic) (1923-1925)
    19. Adam McMullen (Republican) (1925-1929)
    20. Arthur J. Weaver (Republican) (1929-1931)

    21. Charles W. Bryan (Democratic) (1931-1935)
    22. Robert Leroy Cochran (Democratic) (1935-1941)
    23. Dwight Griswold (Republican) (1941-1945)
    24. Ralph G. Brooks (Democratic) (1945- )

    List of Governors of West Virginia

    1. Francis Harrison Pierpont (Republican) (1863-1867)
    2. Arthur I. Boreman (Republican) (1867-1871)
    3. William E. Stevenson (Republican) (1871-1873)

    4. John J. Jacob (Independent) (1873-1877)
    5. Henry M. Mathews (Democratic) (1877)
    6. Jacob B. Jackson (Democratic) ()
    7. Emanuel Willis Wilson (Democratic) ()
    8. Aretas B. Fleming (Democratic) ()
    9. William A. MacCorkle (Democratic) ()
    10. John O. Pendleton (Democratic) (1897-1901)
    11. Albert B. White (Democratic) (1901-1905)
    12. William M. O. Dawson (Democratic) (1905-1909)
    13. William E. Glasscock (Democratic) (1909-1913)
    14. Henry D. Hatfield (Democratic) (1913-1917)
    15. John J. Cornwell (Democratic) (1917-1921)
    16. Ephraim F. Morgan (Democratic) (1921-1925)

    17. Matthew Samuel Holt (Socialist) (1925-1929)
    18. Howard M. Gore (Democratic) (1929-1933)
    19. William G. Conley (Democratic) (1933-1935)

    20. H. Guy Kump (Socialist) (1935-1939)
    21. Homer A. Holt (Democratic) (1939-1941)
    22. Matthew M. Neely (Socialist) (1941-1945)
    23. Daniel Boone Dawson (Democratic) (1945- )
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  11. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    List of Governors of Maryland

    32. Augustus Bradford (Republican) (1862-1866)
    33. Oden Bowie (Democratic) (1866-1869)
    34. William Pinkney Whyte (Democratic) (1869-1872)
    35. James Black Groome (Democratic) (1872-1876)
    36. John Lee Carroll (Democratic) (1876-1880)

    37. Thomas Swann (Republican) (1880-1882)
    38. William T. Hamilton (Democratic) (1882-1884)

    39. Robert M. McLane (Democratic) (1884-1886)
    40. Henry Lloyd (Democratic) (1886-1888)
    41. Elihu E. Jackson (Democratic) (1888-1892)
    43. Frank Brown (Democratic) (1892-1896)
    44. Lloyd Lowndes (Democratic) (1896-1900)
    45. John Walter Smith (Democratic) (1900-1904)
    46. Edwin Warfield (Democratic) (1904-1908)
    47. Austin L. Crothers (Democratic) (1908-1912)
    48. Phillips Lee Goldsborough (Democratic) (1912-1916)
    49. Emerson C. Harrington (Democratic) (1916-1920)
    50. Albert C. Ritchie (Democratic) (1920-1935)
    51. Harry W. Nice (Democratic) (1935-1939)

    52. Herbert R. O'Conor (Socialist) (1939-1943)
    53. Theodore McKeldin (Democratic) (1943- )

    List of Governors of Delaware

    39. William Burton (Democratic) (1859-1863)
    40. Gove Saulsbury (Democratic) (1863-1869)
    41. James Ponder (Democratic) (1869-1873)
    42. John P. Cochran (Democratic) (1873-1877)
    43. John Hall (Democratic) (1877-1881)
    44. Charles C. Stockley (Democratic) (1881-1885)
    45. Benjamin T. Biggs (Democratic) (1885-1889)
    46. Robert J. Reynolds (Democratic) (1889-1893)

    47. Joshua H. Marvil (Democratic) (1893-1895)
    48. William T. Watson (Democratic) (1895-1897)
    49. Ebe W. Tunnell (Democratic) (1897-1901)
    50. John Hunn (Democratic) (1901-1905)
    51. Preston Lea (Democratic) (1905-1909)
    52. Simon S. Pennewill (Democratic) (1909-1913)
    53. Charles R. Miller (Democratic) (1913-1917)

    54. John G. Townsend, Jr. (Democratic) (1917-1921)
    55. William d. Denney (Democratic) (1921-1925)
    56. Robert P. Robinson (Democratic) (1925-1929)
    57. C. Douglass Buck, Sr. (Democratic) (1929-1937)

    58. Richard C. McMullen (Socialist) (1937-1944) †
    59. Elbert N. Carvel (Socialist) (1944-1945)

    60. Walter W. Bacon (Democratic) (1945- )

    † = Died in Office

    List of Governors of Missouri

    16. Hamilton Rowan Gamble (Republican) (1861-1864)
    17. Willard Preble Hall (Republican) (1864-1865)

    18. Thomas Lawson Price (Democratic) (1865-1869)
    19. John Smith Phelps (Democratic) (1869-1871)

    20. Joseph W. McClurg (Republican) (1871-1873)
    21. Silas Woodson (Democratic) (1873-1875)
    22. Charles Henry Hardin (Democratic) (1875-1877)

    23. Gustavus A. Finkelnburg (Republican) (1877-1881)
    24. Thomas Theodore Crittenden (Democratic) (1881-1885)
    25. Nicholas Ford (Republican) (1885-1889)
    26. Albert P. Morehouse (Democratic) (1889-1891)
    27. Lawrence Vest Stephens (Democratic) (1891-1893)

    28. William Warner (Republican) (1893-1897)
    29. Alexander Monroe Dockery (Democratic) (1897-1901)
    30. Cyrus Walbridge (Republican) (1901-1905)
    31. William Strother Cowherd (Democratic) (1905-1909)
    32. Herbert S. Hadley (Republican) (1909-1913)
    33. Elliot Woolfolk Major (Democratic) (1913-1917)
    34. Frederick D. Gardner (Democratic) (1917-1921)

    35. Arthur M. Hyde (Republican) (1921-1925)
    36. Samuel Aaron Baker (Republican) (1925-1929)
    37. Henry S. Caulfield (Republican) (1929-1933)

    38. Guy Brasfield Park (Democratic) (1933-1937)

    39. Lloyd C. Stark (Democratic) (1937-1941)
    40. Frank Gaines Harris (Democratic) (1941-1944) †
    41. Walter Naylor Davis (Democratic) (1944-1945)

    42. Forrest C. Donnell (Republican) (1945- )

    † = Died in Office
    Archangel likes this.
  12. Polish Eagle AntiFa Supersoldier

    Apr 11, 2009
    Where the skies are so blue
    In that case, I can imagine the Germans sending a few breeding pairs of Wisent across the sea after GW2 to repopulate with a nearly-identical species.
    New Cleo Genesis and Zoidberg12 like this.
  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Aug 28, 2018
    California, USA
    So I recently stumbled across an amazing find online - a compilation of dispatches from both the Union and Confederate generals made during the Civil War. Its part of a series called "The War of the Rebellion" published back in 1886 as a record of the Civil War at the time. What I've read so far from the correspondence between the generals is very enlightening and fascinating. The message are most of the time, but they give a valuable insight into the strategic, tactical, and logistical planning of the armies of the time. Lincoln is even in these dispatches as well as tries to get more information from his commanders in the field, trying to piece together events as they unfold.

    Here are a few dispatches made in September 1862 in Kentucky, only a few weeks before TL-191's Battle of Camp Hill on October 1st, 1862. They are messages detailing the events of Kirby Smith's incursion into Kentucky, his advance into Lexington, with Braxton Bragg's location unknown to the Union at that time.


    Louisville, Ky., September 2,1862—9.45 p. m. Hon. E. M. Stanton:

    The operator at Lexington has just bid good-by. He says the enemy were within 3 miles at 7 this evening. The loss of Lexington is the loss of the heart of Kentucky and leaves the road open to the Ohio River. I want artillery and equipment for six additional batteries.

    O.P. Morton


    Louisville Ky., September 3, 1862

    The President :

    The panic still prevails. Lexington and Frankfort in hands of the rebels. Unless the state is reinforced with veteran troops Kentucky will be overrun.

    THOS. H. CLAY.


    Cincinnati, Ohio, September 4,1862—11 a. m.

    Col. A. Stager :

    Paris [Ky.] operators just left. Rebel infantry and cavalry entering town. Cynthiana again threatened this morning. We are ready for them here.

    Chief Operator.


    Cincinnati, Ohio, September 4,1862.

    Col. A. Stager:

    General Wright has information that the enemy is within 16 miles of the city. Citizens rapidly arming. There has been no circuit south of Covington since 12 noon.

    Chief Operator.


    War Department, Washington, D. C., September 7, 1862.

    General Boyle, Louisville, Ky.:

    Where is General Bragg? What do you know on the subject?



    Louisville, Ky., September 7, 1862.

    President Lincoln:

    I do not know where General Bragg is, but believe he is in Tennessee threatening General Buell. I have taken letters from post-offices from some of his officers known to me saying he had an army of 35,000; that he would move on General Buell and drive him back. I have no doubt that he presses Buell’s army. General Morgan reports that Kirby Smith is receiving re-enforcements through the mountains. Morgan had a successful skirmish with them the other day.

    J. T. BOYLE,
    Brigadier- General


    War Department, Washington, D.C., September 7, 1862.

    General Wright, Cincinnati, Ohio:

    Do you know to any certainty where General Bragg is? May he not be in Virginia?



    Cincinnati, Ohio, September 7, 1862—5.30 p. m.

    His Excellency President Lincoln :

    Nothing reliable about Bragg. All rumors agree that he has crossed the river above Chattanooga, and a gentleman late from Nashville reported his advance at Sparta, Tenn. All intelligence coming to me from the southward is very unreliable.

    H. G. WBIGHT,
    Major-General, Commanding


    I thought these dispatches were quite interesting. And trust me there are hundreds more, if not thousands in this compilation. This is only a few I selected that focus on the very early stages of the Kentucky Campaign. There are surely dispatches from the front in Virginia as well where Lee and McClellan are, but I haven't looked into them yet. Whether they mention Special Order 191 - I'll have to find out.

    So why does post this here on this thread? Well its talking about "filling in the gaps" in TL-191 universe right? I'd wager actual dispatches made by the generals in the field only weeks or days before the point of deviation would be something of value.
  14. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Aug 28, 2018
    California, USA
    Reason why I looked into that is because... well, we really don't know how some of these battles unfold during alternate version of the Civil War. The Battles of Camp Hill and Perryville, both of them Confederate victories that effectively end the Civil War in the Confederates' favor, are not given much detail despite being battles that occurred after the point of deviation with Order 191 not being discovered and are effectively events that helped changed the course of this world's history.

    Definitely some gaps to fill in there.
    TITUP and New Cleo Genesis like this.
  15. TR1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 24, 2009
    Actually, in Drive to the East, we learn that buffalo are maintained in Yellowstone. see pgs 442-443. They aren't extinct yet.
  16. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Nov 27, 2018
    I over looked that. I'm going to have to reread that page now
  17. President Mahan Well-Known Member

    Jun 7, 2011
    New York, New York
    I Wrote a piece on camp hill search for my George McClellan article
    Alterwright likes this.
  18. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Aug 28, 2018
    California, USA
    Can you link it please?
  19. President Mahan Well-Known Member

    Jun 7, 2011
    New York, New York has an excellent search function just type in a topic and click search this thread only.

    The thread is almost 9 years old with a ton of devoted contributors. There is a a good chance we have spoken on a topic. That’s the fun of this thread. our contributors work very hard. We cover complete lists of hypothetical governors of Maryland, unknown OTL late 19th Century military theorists and army reformers to biographies of controversial Massachusett Senators that currently run 90 pages. We are insane.
    Odinson, TITUP, Alterwright and 2 others like this.
  20. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Aug 28, 2018
    California, USA
    Right, thank you, I think I found it. A post on George McClellan's bio I think, made in 2017. This will come in handy for me. Thank you!
    TITUP and Zoidberg12 like this.