TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Dutch_Atlantic_13 IronPiedmont1996

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    In regards to Ophelia Wyatt Mitchel, her name is actually a reference to Hattie Ophelia Wyatt Caraway, the first woman to be elected to the United States senate in our timelime. She represented Arkansas, Burton Mitchel's home states.
     
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  2. weaverj We Have Superior Weaponry!

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    Out of curiosity, What were Jake Featherston's Views on Religion?
     
  3. TR1 Well-Known Member

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    Complete and utter indifference. He'd been raised Baptist, but he was essentially lapsed. Pretty sure he'd thought of himself as agnostic.
     
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  4. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

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    These infoboxes are fantastic.

    And Its not everyday that you can see impressive mustache's....like, I mean, wow!
     
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  5. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    A very nice nod to History indeed!:)
     
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  6. President Mahan Well-Known Member

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    Only this thread would get why I am excited. For years I have been reading the work of this historian Evan Thomas. He writes American history and has some great works on John Paul Jones, the Spanish American War, Eisenhower, Nixon and RFK.

    Turns out he is the OTL grandson of Assistant Secretary of War Norman Matoon Thomas. The same Assistant Secretary of War that fires Custer.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Thomas
     
  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    Confederate General George S. Patton's Family Lineage:

    [​IMG]
    Brig. Gen. George Smith Patton (1)
    (June 26, 1833 – Late 19th Century/Early 20th Century)

    [​IMG]
    D.A. George William Patton
    (2)
    (September 30, 1856 – June 10, 1927)

    [​IMG]
    General George Smith Patton (3)
    (November 11, 1885-currently alive as of 1945)

    1) Brig. Gen. George Smith Patton died in 1864 at the Battle of Opequon in OTL. In TL-191, he lived since the battle never occurred and continued to raise his son, George William Patton.

    2) George William Patton never changed his name in honor of his deceased father, as he did in OTL. Presumably, he stayed and lived in the Confederate States, instead of going to California, where he grew up to be a District Attorney in Virginia, which is plausible.

    3) Similar to Daniel MacArthur in TL-191, this version of George S. Patton is most likely a Genetic Variant of OTL's Patton. Same father but different mother, for example.

    Complete Family History: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9077
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  8. President Mahan Well-Known Member

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    Then How did George S. Patton’s family meet if his father never moved to California?
     
  9. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    The family (Ruth Wilson's) that George S. Patton's father met is not the same as the one he did in OTL; He never married Ruth Wilson. Instead of settling down in California and practice law, he did it the CSA and eventually married a different woman from a different family who gave birth to TL-191's version of George S. Patton.

    It makes more sense than wondering why Patton's father would go to California now that he's in a different country with victories against the United States, marry the same woman, have the same son, and somehow have that same son move back to the Confederacy.

    Turtledove decided to make him aligned to the Confederacy and this is what I came up with as a plausible scenario about how the Patton family continued to be Confederates.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  10. President Mahan Well-Known Member

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    This Patton and OTL Patton seem remarkably
    Similar. He’s probably the same person. Might I suggest that this Patton and his maternal grandfather both sought there fortune in Sonora, but returned to Virginia.
     
  11. weaverj We Have Superior Weaponry!

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    Another question I have: Did the Freedomites have anything similar to the Neo-Paganism stuff that the Nazis practiced (or so I have heard)?
     
  12. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    None whatsoever.
     
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  13. Greenhorn Well-Known Member

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    The Freedom Party did not have any paganist stuff going on (and yes, the Nazis did have paganist ideas. There were even discussions between characters like Himmler and Hitler on the possibility of replacing Christianity with a paganist cult around the SS). They really didn't have much Christian stuff either, except for individual characters who made passing mentions to God. It was populist, it had socialistic economic platforms, but overall in the social arena, from what we saw in the books, it was more conservative than the NSDAP ever was. There were no Lebensborn projects headed by the Guards. There were no groups like the NS Frauenschaft. There weren't, IIRC, attempts to abolish class distinction and implement a racially harmonious society (Volksgemeinschaft). Really the Freedom Party was far better molded to American political realities than most people give Turtledove credit for.
     
  14. weaverj We Have Superior Weaponry!

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    Thats one of the reasons I like TL 191 (aside from it being my Third AH novel(s))

    The reason I ask these questions is because I sorta stopped reading TL 191 during the American Empire saga, when I just lost interest, the Great War saga was definitely the highlight for me, and It would have been interesting to see the "Gordon Mcsweeney" scenario that everyone talks about play out.

    Also, Speaking of Himmler, who would be the closest analog to Himmler in the books?
     
  15. Greenhorn Well-Known Member

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    I just can't get over that name "McSweeney." If he ever wanted to become a Hitler he'd need to drop that name for something like "Sweeney" or "Strong."

    Himmler was Reichsfuhrer der SS, and Ferdinand Koenig is the head of the Freedom Party Guards, so Koenig would be the analog to Himmler. But even then there are differences in their character. IMO Koenig was far more of a typical yes man profiteer than Himmler was, and less, shall we say, driven? I don't see Koenig trying to create his own little empire out of the Confederacy after Featherston's death like Himmler tried. Now I also believe that Koenig is in part the Goering analog, and TBH he'd better fit Goering in terms of characterization than Himmler.
     
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  16. Greenhorn Well-Known Member

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    Also I recall seeing a post somewhere, maybe not this thread, from a little bit ago about what the Confederate Gestapo would have been. Gestapo was an acronym for Geheime Staatspolizei, roughly "secret state police," so perhaps you could have the Confederate Freedomite equivalent be the "Secret State Police" or "Sestapo" for analog purposes.
     
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  17. weaverj We Have Superior Weaponry!

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    The last question I have at the moment is: What was the Military tech of other countries in the Central Powers and Entente during the SGW compared to OTL? Because I am pretty sure the books never talked about Europe that much during the SGW and I was wondering what ideas people here had.

    Also, what goals did the Freedom Party have for the SGW and post SGW if they had won, because from what I read, they only seem to care about revenge against the North and killing their black population. Did they have any other goals in the books or any ideas discussed here that I missed?
     
  18. Letterman Man of Letters (BS in Geology)

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    I do have another question for the thread. I don't know if this has been talked about or speculated in this thread. It probably has, but in case not, I want to put this question out there for the thread to discuss.

    As in OTL postwar-Germany with the display of Nazi flags, symbols, etc. being outlawed, would the open display of Freedomite and/or Confederate flags, symbols, regalia, imagery, etc. be outlawed by the US authorities?

    I rather strongly suspect the answer would be "Yes!" for some pretty obvious reasons:

    1) the US would want to quash any attempt to revive the Freedom Party and/or Confederacy or to keep the memory of either one alive in the minds of the Southern populace.

    (in other words, I don't think there would be a "Lost Cause" -type movement in the former Confederacy)

    2) the US would want the defeated Confederates and the Freedomites to know absolutely and completely that they are DEFEATED. The best way to do that is to outlaw the display of Confederate flags, Freedom Party symbols, etc., probably being severely punished, by death, if necessary.

    They want the Southerners to KNOW that they have been crushed, and any attempt to keep the memory of the Confederacy and/or Freedom Party (and what it stood for) will be stamped out.

    So, in my view, it would be pretty much like how postwar Germany outlawed the display of Nazi symbols, flags, etc. only with the punishment for doing so being very, very severe.

    (I can easily imagine former Confederates and/or Freedom Party members finding out the hard way that you DON'T want to piss off the US authorities by doing ANYTHING even remotely like that, as in, if you try something that stupid, you end up a corpse left out on the street or hanging from a lamp post, left as an example to others, or you just simply disappear off the face of the earth)
     
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  19. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    I sometimes like to think that the Internet was made so that we could all have unlimited access to such tidbits of tasty, tasty Trivia ... and well ALL Know it was invented for Thirtsy Nerds like us!;)
     
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  20. Tiro Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the USA Authorities would refer to this as "Reconstruction" or "Deconstruction"?
     
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