TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[Tiro]

Side note: there is no need for your passive-aggressive stance here.

Don't mind old Trotsky, he's been awfully picky since 20th August 1940! (Yes, yes, Lev Davidovich was eventually killed by an ICE AXE, not a pickaxe, but why spoil the beauty of a quip with accuracy?).

Thanks again for the time and effort!

Thank YOU Sierra for taking the time to read through the various contributions to this thread (I can imagine it must be quite the Epic, taken from start to finish!) and Thank You all the more for sending such kind words in our direction; we don't like to brag but we do Love to be Flattered!

1. Has anyone bothered yet to gather everything into a single place for reference?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=timelines:tl-191_filling_the_gaps

^^At the other end of this link is the closest thing to a FILLING THE GAPS compilation page, since it provides links to a great many of the more interesting articles; it is not quite comprehensive, however, as it updates only at intervals and we keep adding things to the Main Thread willy-nilly.^^

A FILLING THE GAPS wiki would indeed be rather neat: one concept that occurs to me is a sort of "Miller Center" approach (and format?), allowing us to focus on a specific goal (providing biographies for Fictional Presidents and providing an outline of their eras) rather than drive ourselves mad trying to keep track of EVERYTHING.

Such a project would probably require a Round Table discussion to help achieve consensus on what version of things we actually want to post.

2. What sort of projects are being worked on? I'm eager to contribute, but really don't want to step on other peoples toes.

The only thing I have serious hopes of posting at any point in the near future is a somewhat expanded biography for Charles Burton Mitchel the Third; something that expands on the basic character sketch I posted a year or so ago that is intended to serve as companion piece for ... well, that would be telling!

I cannot speak for the rest of our little Cabinet, but one suspects that they will be just as Happy as I am to welcome contributions from another poster - especially since the thread has been on something of a hiatus; please feel free to share your ideas and please don't worry about us.

THE THREAD MUST GROW and that is what truly matters!

 

[President Mahan]

*Claws up from the backlog and inhales*

Hello everyone. I just spent the last four days working my way through this thread from the beginning. I wanted to thank everyone for the wonderful and interesting work on the background what has been one of my favorite book series since I splurged and got it on Kindle six months ago. Being a rather OCD person. I always appreciate details being filled in.

More to the point, I was interested in helping to expand this corpus here, and was wondering:

1. Has anyone bothered yet to gather everything into a single place for reference?

2. What sort of projects are being worked on? I'm eager to contribute, but really don't want to step on other peoples toes.

Thanks again for the time and effort!

Nice to hear from a new contributor.

Zoidberg started a wiki, however it is incomplete:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=timelines:tl-191_filling_the_gaps

It would be a big help if you contributed to it. I find the search function on this forum to work well. Chances are if you have an idea we spoke about it ad nauseam.

People are welcome to contribute to any of the project's i've started but never finished. Churchill, Huey Long, etc.

I just ask you don't finish my McClellan or Henry Cabot Lodge bios. HCL is near and dear to me and i have a definite ending.

 

[President Mahan]

Emory Upton too. I plan on revising them and making a final version that is MUCH shorter.

 

[Trotsky]

Yes, something that would allow the users to use their own creativity and not be forced to go (literally) by the book(s).

I'd refer you to Section 7.1 of the FAQ on Turtledove's website:

7.1. Where can I read fan-fiction (fanfic) set in Dr. Turtledove's worlds?

 

[President Mahan]

I do my best to not contradict anything written by Mr. Turtledove. I think the fun part about this thread is making the inconsistencies in Mr. Turtledoves books work.

 

[Tiro]

I'd refer you to Section 7.1 of the FAQ on Turtledove's website:

Strictly speaking we're not actually writing Fan Fiction so much as Fan Speculation!

 

[Tiro]

By the way, having said that I wanted to ask a few questions of my own for the sake of improving on such Speculations:-

1 - Does it make sense to suggest that while Canada would receive much of its equipment from the United Kingdom, the Confederate States would likely make more use of French Equipment? I've been thinking on the most useful models for an artist and it struck me that having the Canadians use British, the USA employ Germanic and the Confederate States retain French aircraft would be an especially useful way to make life easier for an illustrator! (in terms of leaving each quite distinct).


2 - I've been thinking a little bit about Gabriel Semmes (putting together a timeline for the character as much as anything) and it struck me that one didn't really have any idea what ships he might have served on/commanded during his Naval Career; may I please ask if any of you Navy Enthusiasts (you know who you are, you splendid fellows!) have any thoughts on what ships the CSA had in service between the Second Mexican War and the Turn of the Century?

 

[President Mahan]

By the way, having said that I wanted to ask a few questions of my own for the sake of improving on such Speculations:-

1 - Does it make sense to suggest that while Canada would receive much of its equipment from the United Kingdom, the Confederate States would likely make more use of French Equipment? I've been thinking on the most useful models for an artist and it struck me that having the Canadians use British, the USA employ Germanic and the Confederate States retain French aircraft would be an especially useful way to make life easier for an illustrator! (in terms of leaving each quite distinct).

The books clearly indicate that the CSA copied the British Army's uniform and French artillery. , however as we discussed before the Confederacy definitely purchased French aircraft. The French were such a leader in aircraft production, it would make the most sense.

2 - I've been thinking a little bit about Gabriel Semmes (putting together a timeline for the character as much as anything) and it struck me that one didn't really have any idea what ships he might have served on/commanded during his Naval Career; may I please ask if any of you Navy Enthusiasts (you know who you are, you splendid fellows!) have any thoughts on what ships the CSA had in service between the Second Mexican War and the Turn of the Century?

I'll direct message you something i've recently put together on the subject. In a nutshell; If his service was in the 1880s its still an ironclad or some sort of ironclad scout/raider. (see my article on the SMW Naval campaign it lists active CSN vessels). If its in the early 1890s it could be a armored cruiser. The late 1890s onward it could an armored cruiser or pre-dreadnought battleship. He would be too old for submersible service.

 

[Tiro]

Thank You most kindly Mister President - one conversation coming right up!

 

[Sierra]

Some ideas i've thought about, and wanted to see if anyone had feedback on.

1. The Suffragette Movement in TL-191. Would it necessarily be much different from ours? Considering the fact that the south is ruled by a much more reactionary government.

2. Maybe an article on blacks in the U.S. Army, starting with the U.S. Colored Troops.

3. More technical stuff about vehiclea and such. Ships especially, which i dont recall much discussion on aside from some about the Confederate dreadnoughts.

4. More info on the Mormon rebellions. We dont see much

5. A more detailed deacription of what Japan,has been doing during the Meiji and Taisho eras.

 

[President Mahan]

sounds good. if your looking for info on what amendments were passed when, here is craigo's post.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-filling-the-gaps.148857/page-23#post-4653280

there have been some posts about descriptions of ships. I personally think most confederate vessels are British copies. The U.S. on the other hand is developing its vessels on its own. I think there would be some similarities between the U.S. and Germany in our Dreadnought designs however. Their roles would be pretty similar, our Battleships would probably not cruise around as much as British vessels so their are less spaces for crew quarters. Also probably a greater emphasis on armor over speed, since we shied away from battlecruiser construction. In 1912 we begin constructing fast firing super dreadnoughts like the Queen Elizabeth class as per my HCL article.

 

[Tiro]

1. The Suffragette Movement in TL-191. Would it necessarily be much different from ours? Considering the fact that the south is ruled by a much more reactionary government.

I'd suggest that the methods would be similar, although the outcome may certainly differ given the distinct personalities and very different political situation prevailing; I do not know enough about the Woman's Suffrage Movement as it played out in America to say more with any confidence.

2. Maybe an article on blacks in the U.S. Army, starting with the U.S. Colored Troops.

I'm not sure that the Timeline-191 US Army actually HAD formations of Coloured Troops (in fact it may have been mentioned that the US Army did not allow coloured men to serve, given their relative scarcity and the severity with which the Confederates would keep any they captured), although I cannot recall any quotes to that effect so you would be wise to consult others more expert in the original text than I.

3. More technical stuff about vehiclea and such. Ships especially, which i dont recall much discussion on aside from some about the Confederate dreadnoughts.

I've been meaning to post something about the various types of Aircraft in service with the US Air Force and the CS Air Army during the Second Great War, but technical specifications are not my area of expertise and I didn't want to post little more than a set of names with a little trivia attached (you might be amused to know that I've named the most common CSA bomber of the early era the "Rattlesnake" and that its crews dubbed this craft the "Shake-and-Pray" or the "Rattle-Break" for the sheer ineptitude of its design).

I've got a few snippets like that - and a naming scheme - but would be glad to hear from anyone willing to help me rough out some technically specifications to sweeten the pot!

Some ideas i've thought about, and wanted to see if anyone had feedback on.

Please know that we'd be very happy to see your thoughts on any of these points and would be very grateful for your efforts.

 

[Sierra]

I'd suggest that the methods would be similar, although the outcome may certainly differ given the distinct personalities and very different political situation prevailing; I do not know enough about the Woman's Suffrage Movement as it played out in America to say more with any confidence.

My only current thought on this is that it would be a reason for otherwise Democrat and Republican leaning women to lean towards the Socialists.

I'm not sure that the Timeline-191 US Army actually HAD formations of Coloured Troops

You may be correct. The U S.C.T. was apparently founded well after Camp Hill. So probably not during the first three wars here. But during the SGW, it seems to me that with a Socialist administration, and the U.S. on the ropes, they could easily have had them. Especially considering that the CONFEDERATES had them in the FGW. Also...this may or may not have been intended, but im reasonably certain I saw one of the frequent posters making reference to including such things. Might have even been early enough to have been Craigo. I recall clearly something about a Fort Pillow equivelent.

I've got a few snippets like that - and a naming scheme - but would be glad to hear from anyone willing to help me rough out some technically specifications to sweeten the pot!

If you would like yo discuss that, i'd be happy to help. I tend to be quite good with digging up things like that from a multitude of sources.

 

[Tiro]

I shall do my best to pull together my musings on the CS Air Army (and since that may take some time I'll copy you in on one of the old private discussions raising that topic).

But during the SGW, it seems to me that with a Socialist administration, and the U.S. on the ropes, they could easily have had them.

Very possible, although I doubt that the US Army would have created specifically-segregated regiments for any coloured troops (especially after the conflict - I believe that President La Follette actually drafted and passed legislation making Racial discrimination illegal after the discovery of the Camps); I would have expected any African American troops to simply be drafted into Regular Army units.

Having said that one of the most plausible reasons for the Timeline-191 USA to recruit all-coloured formations would be for the sake of Behind-the-Lines operations in the Confederate States (employing them to make co-operation with Southern Guerrillas much, much easier).

 

[Sierra]

I honestly hadn't thought of them just skipping segregated units.

The second bit gives me an idea. Given the rampant parallelism....
The CSA generally takes the roll of Nazi Germany in the SGW. But the US has some bits too. Since the US has the TL-191 Rommel....what if the US has the TL-191 Skorzeny too? I know Clarence Potter has shades of that, but...allow me to offer Benjamin O. Davis Jr.

 

[President Mahan]

The U.S. didn't allow African American troops to fight in the army. It's brought up in the novels repeatedly, the navy allows colored enlisted men to serve as cooks. LaFollette makes a big speech about integrating the army after Cassius Madison kills Featherston at the conclusion of the war.

The U.S. has the Rommel equivalent because in Turtledove's initial draft the U.S. was going to be defeated and turn Fascist. He changed his mind about that sometime around his writing Walk in Hell. The Soldier Circle goons were probably going to become our equivalent of the SA and Flora Hamburg was probably going to be a martyr a la Rosa Luxembourg.

But agreed the U.S. in this TL is definitely more authoritarian when the series begins. However I think the Sinclair administration is when that begins the change, we see rationing end, the end of one party Democratic rule. It's treatment of African Americans was still appalling. However I always got the impression that the U.S. was more inclusive to immigrants by the SGW in this TL than in OTL. This is evidenced by the many Officers with Italian and Eastern European last names in the SGW, as compared to the GW.

Benjamin O. Davis Jr. would have been a great OSS asset in this timeline, organizing southern partisans and carrying out other covert missions. I have a half written post on Wild Bill Donovan and the OSS if you want to see it. Intelligence and covert operations in the SGW are definitely something we need to flesh out.

 

[Sierra]

I would love to kibitz on it, if you want feed back. I was going to say about hte subject of color troops that we hear nothing really on that subject after the FGW, aside from the Snake's rants on the evils of allowing blacks to carry arms. Also, in order to integrate the army,, there needs to be something there to integrate.

I am currently rereading the series (On Walk In Hell atm). Aside from Cinncinatus Driver working as a trucker (and honestly, he was well into his fifties in the SGW, and wouldn't have been much use as a soldier) and Cassius Madison working as a guerilla, I don't recall anything one way ort another about blacks being allowed into the Army in SGW. I can certainly see arguments for it, such as the manpower needs (considering they could only spare a few reinforcements for Abner Dowling, who commanded the equivlent of a corps, but it was called an army), and the potential high morale you would get from black units fighting the CS army. This even before the revelations about the Population Reductions.

 

[President Mahan]

In a speech at the beginning In at the Death roughly December 18th 1943.


“And, I fear, we have committed another injustice. For too long, we have believed that Negro men lack the courage to fight for their country. We have never conscripted them into the Army or even let them volunteer. In the Navy, we let them cook food and tend engines, but no more. This is not right, not if they are men like any others, citizens like any others. “As if further proof were needed, colored guerrilla fighters in the Confederate States have shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that courage is not a question of black and white. Without their brave efforts, our war against Jake Featherston’s vicious tyranny would be even harder and more perilous than it is." from "In at the Death: Settling Accounts, Book Four" by Harry Turtledove

"“

“No law prevents the enlistment and conscription of Negroes into the armed forces of the United States. We have relied on long-standing custom instead. I say to you that this custom will stand no longer. By its dreadful example, the Confederacy shows us how evil prejudice of any sort is. This being so, I have today issued an executive order forbidding discrimination on the basis of race in the recruitment, training, and promotion of all U.S. military forces.”

...“…and 1944 is only two weeks away.”

So African Americans began joining U.S. Army units sometime mid-1944. Considering they still needed to be trained first and of course there would be ridiculous bureaucratic hurdles.

 

[Sierra]

Thank you for doing the digging. Its been a while since I read them, and the first time wasn't enough to make most things stick.

So, even if the Army.got right on it, you wouldn't be seeing blacks in combat units until May at the earliest. Being generous. And the CSA is pretty much history at that point.

 

[President Mahan]

pretty much.


The search function on the Kindle App is great. Made all of this so much easier.