TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Jake's last POV on the very last page of Blood and Iron has him wandering around Richmond with only Ferd Koenig as company and almost getting into confrontations with every other person he encounters (while Ferd just stands back and shakes his head).

The very next time we see him, in his first two POVs in the very next book, he goes around Richmond (and everywhere else) with bodyguards. And they're his and only his until the inauguration when they seem to have massively expanded all of a sudden.
 
Jake's last POV on the very last page of Blood and Iron has him wandering around Richmond with only Ferd Koenig as company and almost getting into confrontations with every other person he encounters (while Ferd just stands back and shakes his head).

The very next time we see him, in his first two POVs in the very next book, he goes around Richmond (and everywhere else) with bodyguards. And they're his and only his until the inauguration when they seem to have massively expanded all of a sudden.
so the Freedom Party Guards started off at we'll say Platoon strength and slowly expanded, possibly to include units possibly in every state of the Confederacy?

By the time of the inauguration they are the size possibly of a Division and continue to increase in size, and grow into even more prominence after the Knight coup
 
At the very least the Knight Coup would probably mark the point where the Guards began to become more Military than Paramilitary; one might also use the dismissal of General Stuart as a useful milestone in the history of the Party Guards, probably marking the point where the Stalwarts gained access to first-class military hardware (I sincerely doubt that JEB Stuart Junior would have facilitated previous attempts by the Freedom Party to acquire the very Biggest Guns on the Market).
 
How about more details on the Battle of Camp Hill such as the causalities and how it came to be called Camp Hill. Because the location wasn't called Camp Hill in the 1860s.
 
I meant about Churchill from 1918-1934, I have a half written Bio of McClellan that goes into Camp Hill. Maybe I will finish it. Good to know it wasn't called that then.

I am going to leave the POV stuff too Tiro
 
Just for the sake of keeping FILLING THE GAPS a little closer to the front of the listings:-

I have only just stumbled upon this particular gentleman (courtesy of a novel set during the Spanish-American War) but it seems transparently obvious that this would be a fellow destined for Big Things in Confederate Service; if nothing else (assuming he follows a roughly equivalent career trajectory) he would make a potentially excellent pick for Secretary of the Navy to President Semmes - it is very easy to imagine the two of them as Friends and Allies of Old when it comes to Naval Preparedness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_P._Hobson

Keep Well, you fellows, and Best Wishes.
 
Just finished listening to How Few Remain on Audible. I very much enjoyed it, but my biggest question was what was happening on the Ontario front. It was never discussed despite British advances in Maine and Montana.
 
Just for the sake of keeping FILLING THE GAPS a little closer to the front of the listings:-

I have only just stumbled upon this particular gentleman (courtesy of a novel set during the Spanish-American War) but it seems transparently obvious that this would be a fellow destined for Big Things in Confederate Service; if nothing else (assuming he follows a roughly equivalent career trajectory) he would make a potentially excellent pick for Secretary of the Navy to President Semmes - it is very easy to imagine the two of them as Friends and Allies of Old when it comes to Naval Preparedness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_P._Hobson

Keep Well, you fellows, and Best Wishes.

For what it's worth, I had the man serve as the director of C.S. naval intelligence during the Great War in my DH mod (that regrettably has been lost forever).
 
Treaty of Arlington, 1863

After the distatrous battle of Camp Hill, Pennsylvania saw the total defeat of the Union Army of the Potomac, the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia advanced unopposed on and occupied Philadelphia. With this stunning victory, Great Britain and France finally saw it fit to recognize the Confederate States and bring an end to the War of Secession. On November 4th, 1862, Lord Lyons, British Ambassador to the United States, visited President Lincoln at the White House and delivered the veiled threat of the Royal Navy crossing the Atlantic to break the Union blockade of Confederate ports. Faced with the threat of foreign intervention, and with Washington under the threat of siege and no outside help, Lincoln agreed to negotiate a peace with the Confederacy.

Lincoln sent his Secretary of State, William Seward, to Arlington, Virginia to discuss a treaty with Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens at Robert E. Lee's personal estate. Eventually, the following terms were negotiated:

  • The United States acknowledged the independence of the Confederate States. Established basic diplomatic relations between both countries.
  • The US would cede Kentucky and Indian Territory to the CS. In exchange, the Confederacy would relinquish all claims to West Virginia and the part of New Mexico Territory it claimed.
  • All occupied territory held by both sides was to be handed back to the other.
  • All prisoners of war on both sides were to be exchanged.
  • Permitted joint rights to travel and trade along the Mississippi River.
  • Set the official border of the US and CS as the Ohio River. Both sides would have traveling and trading rights on the river.

The treaty was signed on New Year's Day, 1863. It was unanimously ratified by the Confederate Congress, and grudgingly so by the US Congress.
 

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bguy

Donor
Treaty of Arlington, 1863

Craigo's articles on John Hay and on the Presidential Election of 1864 established that the treaty negotiations lasted into 1864.

All prisoners of war on both sides were to be exchanged. As well, all Confederate slaves confiscated by US forces were to be returned.

I think returning slaves would be a deal breaker for the U.S. It would guarantee no New England senator would ever vote for the treaty and would probably split the Republican Party with the Radicals running their own presidential candidate in 1864. I also don't think the British would back the Confederates on this point (since the British themselves are hostile to slavery), so the Confederates don't have that much leverage on this issue. Probably the best they could get would be financial compensation for the value of the freed slaves.

Set the official border of the US and CS as the Ohio River. Both sides would have access to the river.

What about access to the Mississippi River? The U.S. is going to insist on that as part of any treaty negotiation, and if the Confederates don't agree to it then that probably kills any chance of getting any senator from the Mid-West states to vote for the treaty. (Which is probably enough to kill any chance for ratification since even the Democratic senators from those states will vote against the treaty if it doesn't guarantee their states access to the Mississippi and New Orleans.)

Otherwise, what do you see the treaty doing about Missouri (claimed by the Confederates), Maryland (a slave state and occupied by the Army of Northern Virginia at the time of the cease-fire), and reparations (which the Confederates would certainly want)? I would expect these issues to be the main points of contention in the negotiations.
 
Craigo's articles on John Hay and on the Presidential Election of 1864 established that the treaty negotiations lasted into 1864.

I think returning slaves would be a deal breaker for the U.S. It would guarantee no New England senator would ever vote for the treaty and would probably split the Republican Party with the Radicals running their own presidential candidate in 1864. I also don't think the British would back the Confederates on this point (since the British themselves are hostile to slavery), so the Confederates don't have that much leverage on this issue. Probably the best they could get would be financial compensation for the value of the freed slaves.

What about access to the Mississippi River? The U.S. is going to insist on that as part of any treaty negotiation, and if the Confederates don't agree to it then that probably kills any chance of getting any senator from the Mid-West states to vote for the treaty. (Which is probably enough to kill any chance for ratification since even the Democratic senators from those states will vote against the treaty if it doesn't guarantee their states access to the Mississippi and New Orleans.)

Otherwise, what do you see the treaty doing about Missouri (claimed by the Confederates), Maryland (a slave state and occupied by the Army of Northern Virginia at the time of the cease-fire), and reparations (which the Confederates would certainly want)? I would expect these issues to be the main points of contention in the negotiations.

I got the idea that the treaty was signed in 1863 because Craigo mentioned in his post for the Great War peace treaties that the US recognized the Confederacy that year. The issue of returning slaves was honestly not up for debate. Craigo's post on the Fugitive Slave Treaty made that pretty plain. Now that I think about it, I should have mentioned that both sides could have traveling and trading rights on the Mississippi. I'll fix that. The Union already repelled Confederate invasions of Missouri long before the point of divergence. Only the western tip of Maryland was occupied. As for reparations, each side paid their fair share of debts, just like the Americans and British after the Revolution.
 

bguy

Donor
I got the idea that the treaty was signed in 1863 because Craigo mentioned in his post for the Great War peace treaties that the US recognized the Confederacy that year. The issue of returning slaves was honestly not up for debate. Craigo's post on the Fugitive Slave Treaty made that pretty plain.

Doesn't the very fact that a Fugitive Slave Treaty had to be enacted in 1867 suggest that the issue wasn't addressed as part of the original peace treaty?

Anyway, I just don't see how it is mathematically possible to get 2/3 of the senate willing to support returning slaves in 1863/1864. Lets look at the math.

The 37th Congress ended with 30 Republicans, 12 Democrats and 7 Unionists. Those numbers are pretty much locked in from before the TL-191 POD, so they should be more or less accurate.

Now in the 1862 senate elections, incumbent Republican seats were up in Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wisconsin.

Massachusetts, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Maine are all extremely Republican in this period, so there's no chance the Democrats win any of those seats. As such we are looking at a maximum Democrat gain of six seats. (And even that's being pretty generous as its rather unlikely the Democrats can take Wisconsin.) So even under the worst case scenario, the Republicans will still hold 24 senate seats after the 1862 elections to 26 senators for the Democrats and Unionists. (Kentucky presumably being allowed to keep its senate representation until the treaty is ratified.)

So even if we assume that every Democrat and Unionist will vote to ratify the treaty, it is still going to require 8 Republican senators to also vote for it, and 8 Republican senators aren't going to support a treaty that requires surrendering escaped slaves back to the Confederates.

The situation is very different by 1867. By that year there have been further senate elections in 1864 and 1866, so the Democrats would presumably be much closer to a 2/3 majority than they were 1863/1864. (IIRC Craigo had the senate breakdown in that year as 30 Democrats to 20 Republicans.) And there's a Democratic president in office in 1867 who can use patronage and pork to try and get Republican senators to support such a treaty. (Something that President Lincoln would obviously not do as he would despise any treaty condition that required returning freed slaves.) Thus it is far more plausible to get a Fugitive Slave Treaty enacted in 1867 than it is to have such a provision included in the original peace treaty.

The Union already repelled Confederate invasions of Missouri long before the point of divergence. Only the western tip of Maryland was occupied.

Very true, but I would expect the Confederate fire eaters to still make demands on both states. (Especially Missouri since it was actually included in the Confederate Congress.) The U.S. obviously ultimately prevailed as to both states since neither joined the CSA, but the negotiations over them would probably have been lengthy and might have led to the U.S. making concessions in other areas. (Maybe the U.S. agreed to give up having Kentucky's status being decided by a plebiscite in exchange for the Confederates giving up their claim on Missouri.)

And if nothing else the failure to obtain Missouri and Maryland in the negotiations will probably be a sore point amongs the Fire Eaters and a major rallying point for the anti-Davis faction in the CSA. (Indeed it was likely a major theme of the Beauregard campaign in 1867 with Beauregard insisting he would have handled the negotiations much better and obtained Missouri and Maryland.)
 
Doesn't the very fact that a Fugitive Slave Treaty had to be enacted in 1867 suggest that the issue wasn't addressed as part of the original peace treaty?

Anyway, I just don't see how it is mathematically possible to get 2/3 of the senate willing to support returning slaves in 1863/1864. Lets look at the math.

The 37th Congress ended with 30 Republicans, 12 Democrats and 7 Unionists. Those numbers are pretty much locked in from before the TL-191 POD, so they should be more or less accurate.

Now in the 1862 senate elections, incumbent Republican seats were up in Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wisconsin.

Massachusetts, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Maine are all extremely Republican in this period, so there's no chance the Democrats win any of those seats. As such we are looking at a maximum Democrat gain of six seats. (And even that's being pretty generous as its rather unlikely the Democrats can take Wisconsin.) So even under the worst case scenario, the Republicans will still hold 24 senate seats after the 1862 elections to 26 senators for the Democrats and Unionists. (Kentucky presumably being allowed to keep its senate representation until the treaty is ratified.)

So even if we assume that every Democrat and Unionist will vote to ratify the treaty, it is still going to require 8 Republican senators to also vote for it, and 8 Republican senators aren't going to support a treaty that requires surrendering escaped slaves back to the Confederates.

The situation is very different by 1867. By that year there have been further senate elections in 1864 and 1866, so the Democrats would presumably be much closer to a 2/3 majority than they were 1863/1864. (IIRC Craigo had the senate breakdown in that year as 30 Democrats to 20 Republicans.) And there's a Democratic president in office in 1867 who can use patronage and pork to try and get Republican senators to support such a treaty. (Something that President Lincoln would obviously not do as he would despise any treaty condition that required returning freed slaves.) Thus it is far more plausible to get a Fugitive Slave Treaty enacted in 1867 than it is to have such a provision included in the original peace treaty.



Very true, but I would expect the Confederate fire eaters to still make demands on both states. (Especially Missouri since it was actually included in the Confederate Congress.) The U.S. obviously ultimately prevailed as to both states since neither joined the CSA, but the negotiations over them would probably have been lengthy and might have led to the U.S. making concessions in other areas. (Maybe the U.S. agreed to give up having Kentucky's status being decided by a plebiscite in exchange for the Confederates giving up their claim on Missouri.)

And if nothing else the failure to obtain Missouri and Maryland in the negotiations will probably be a sore point amongs the Fire Eaters and a major rallying point for the anti-Davis faction in the CSA. (Indeed it was likely a major theme of the Beauregard campaign in 1867 with Beauregard insisting he would have handled the negotiations much better and obtained Missouri and Maryland.)
I imagine that either the Democrats won in a landslide in the 1862 midterms in the aftermath of Camp Hill, and that enabled the treaty to be ratified by the US Congress, or the Democrats finally regained the majority in 1864 which would enable the US to finally ratify the treaty. Regardless, the Democrats would've initiated their nearly two-decade dynasty by that time. And you're right, the Republicans probably never would've accepted any provision calling for the return of slaves. I've decided to take that out and say that the issue was resolved by the Fugitive Slave Treaty. As for Kentucky and Missouri, plebiscites won't be held as the majority of their respective populations would've made it abundantly clear which side they'd want to go to.
 
A another factor to consider is the Union Occupation of New Orleans and other costal cities of the Confederacy at the closure of hostilities. New Orleans alone is likely to be a huge carrot for the United States in getting the Confederates to give their claims on the other border states. In addition do you think that the Union was still holding on to places in Mississippi and Tennessee like Nashville and Corinth as if they were it would strengthen their hand in holding the other border states.
 
A another factor to consider is the Union Occupation of New Orleans and other costal cities of the Confederacy at the closure of hostilities. New Orleans alone is likely to be a huge carrot for the United States in getting the Confederates to give their claims on the other border states. In addition do you think that the Union was still holding on to places in Mississippi and Tennessee like Nashville and Corinth as if they were it would strengthen their hand in holding the other border states.
I already mentioned that as part of the peace treaty, US and CS forces withdrew from each other's territory they occupied. That includes New Orleans, just as it would include Philadelphia.
 
I was talking about during the peace negotiations and the possible impact it could have on the negotiations and on the final peace treaty. It seems vanishingly unlikely that either the Union or the Confederacy would withdraw from occupied territory while treaty negotiations are still on going.
 
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