TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Good list, except it's stated in In at the Death that the man that replaced Forrest as head of the General Staff was a man named Willard. (Potter can't remember if Willard is his first name or last.)


Otherwise, while looking for the passage on Willard I came across this reference to the Churchill-Mosley government. Taken from page 365 of In At the Death.

"This just in from the BBC-the Churchill government has fallen. Parliament voted no confidence in the Churchill-Mosley regime that has run the United Kingdom for more than ten years."

That passage occurs in 1944, which means the latest the Conservative-Silver Shirt coalition could have taken power in the UK would be sometime in 1934, so I guess we'll have to retcon Craigo's 1935 start date for the coalition.

fixed it. Northcot was acting chief of staff present at the surrender of the confederacy. Willard was in between
 
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I no longer think the US used the Stahlhelm in the World Wars. The reason being is because I looked up the Stahlhelm on Turtledove Wiki, it was referenced as being a Confederate helmet in the Second Great War, replacing the doughboy helmet. I now think that instead, the US used the Model 5 experimental helmet from OTL, and phased it out during the interwar period in favor of the M1 helmet.
 
The US helmets are described as like a coalscuttle, which is how German helmets were traditionally described. Plus the US consistently emulated the German's uniform. And gear like the potatoe masher grenades. Why would the helmets be different.

U could argue the Germans based their helmet design on the US helmets from this timeline which looked liked theModel 5 helmet of OTL.

What evidence do you have that the US gave up the side protection. It seems a step backwards in helmet protection. Plus the book covers have CS with M-1 helmets.

From what I remember the CS copied the US, by adding more protection for the sides and back.

More than likely the CSA adopted something like the M-1 with maybe more protection for the neck and side.
 
Honestly, now that I think about it, I always thought of the US having like the Model 5 helmet in World War I, while the German Army adopting the similar Stahlhelm. In the interwar period, the US also adopted the Stahlhelm. I always sort of imagined the Confederates as using the equivalent of the Soviet ssh39 helmet.
 
I totally agree with all of the above.

I hope those previous comments didn't come off as hostile. I dashed them off at a wedding without reading them.
 
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"I hated Custer, and everything he stood for. But perhaps no other officer had the greatest impact on my career."

Excerpt from General Abner Dowling's autobiography, "From Kentucky to Determination". Published in 1950.

Just a little selection from the post I plan to do on Abner Dowling.
 
Hey guys. So I'm still working on my Abner Dowling contribution, but wanted to knock out something that I'd been thinking of for a while. So I'm going to do something short on U.S. Army Group East; the force that captured Richmond in 1944. I should have it done by the end of the weekend, but here is a sampling:


U.S. Army Group East:

Years of Service: 1944

Commanders:

-General Daniel MacArthur (de jure)

-General Abner Dowling (de facto; served as commander of 5th Army)

Strength: 460,000 (at height)

Composition: 5th Army, 7th Army, 10th Army

Casualties: 27,000 (KIA); 53,000 (WIA)

Campaigns:

Wilderness (1944), North Anna, Richmond, Tidewater
 
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Alight guys, here's Part 1. I'll try to have Part 2 up by mid-week. Enjoy!


Army Group East (Part 1)

Although stood up in the final few months of the Second Great War, Army Group East became one of the finest and most respected U.S. formations; second only to that of Army Group Central under General Morrell. The origins of this force can be traced back to the U.S. 7th Army in 1941. The 7th Army under General Daniel MacArthur had planned to push south into Virginia with the mission of drawing Confederate troops away from Ohio (though General MacArthur bombastically told the U.S. press that he would be in Richmond by the Winter of 1941). Unfortunately for General MacArthur and the soldiers of the 7th Army, the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting on excellent defensive ground and led by the competent General Hank Coomer. Although General MacArthur was able to get his troops over the Rappahannock River, the cost in U.S. lives was horrific and he was forced to halt on the south side of the river to reconsolidate and reinforce. This pause allowed General Coomer to strengthen his defenses in plan his “killing zones” (with some guidance from Jake Featherston who was visiting the front). By April, 1942 though MacArthur has successfully been able to reach the Rapidan River he changed the axis of advance to now include the capture of Fredericksburg, Virginia. This played right into the hands of General Coomer who had set up excellent positions on the heights to the south of the city. Far from the easy capture that MacArthur had predicted, 7th Army found himself slugging though the streets of Fredericksburg with increasing casualties for every yard advanced. Although Fredericksburg was eventually captured , the Confederates still held the high ground at Marye's Heights. Despite advice from General Abner Dowling, commanding II Corps, to flank the Heights and instead suppress them with artillery, MacArthur relied on the Custerite tactics of attrition warfare to wear down the Confederates. Predicting the outcome of the operation, General Dowling offered his corps to serve as a guard on the western flank. MacArthur was only too happy to take Dowling up on the offer as he felt that Dowling did no possess the "proper offensive spirit that will carry us to victory". The resulting battle 15 day battle was horrific with some U.S. divisions suffering 40% casualties. The weight of U.S. numbers was able to carry the day, however it came at a horrible price. General Nathan Rundstrom, commanding I Corps, was later quoted as saying: "The cost of this victory was bearable in a strategic sense. However, I nonetheless felt like a monster and murderer."

However, the campaign nearly ended in disaster for the U.S. when Confederate General George Patton (newly arrived from the Ohio Front) launched a counterattack into the U.S. western flank pushing out of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Fortunately for the U.S. General Dowling was able to hold the flank and organize a skillful withdraw and prevent Patton from getting into the U.S. rear positions. The “Great Retreat to Richmond” was lampooned in the U.S. press, but Congress found it no laughing matter. The campaign had cost the U.S. 54,000 casualties (of which 23,000 were KIA). General MacArthur was forced to defend himself before the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War. Though the U.S. War Department briefly considered relieving him of command, the new Confederate push into Pennsylvania quickly convinced it that some degree of stability in the command structure was necessary. MacArthur would be left in command, however, 7th Army was ordered to hold its ground and to undertake no major offensives outside of keeping Confederate troops pinned to the Rapidan Line. This was mainly due 7th Army having two corps removed and sent to the newly stood up Army Central in Pennsylvania. For the next year and a half, 7th Army would remain in place and serve as the main force on a secondary front; much to the chagrin on the incensed General MacArthur.
 
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I think I incorrectly named Army Group Cental. In a previous posting, wasn't the formation under General Murrell named Army Group Midwest?
 
That I'm not sure about. I propose that we eventually flesh out the numbers in US/CS formations.
Craigo established that in his Bio on George C . Marshal. See https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-filling-the-gaps.148857/page-12#post-4010361

I interpreted that to mean the CS Army had a much looser definition of what constitutes an Army. In the CSA giving formations historic Army names were important for a proper spirit of élan, so all the forces invading Ohio was considered the Army of Kentucky. As an example the SGW Army of Kentucky would have been split up into two or three armies in the U.S.. Craigo has the George Marshal as Commander of Command B during the 1942 campaign. This led to confusion for U.S. intel in the opening days of the war when they did not realize the Army of Kentucky was twice the size of the U.S. force defending Ohio. It also meant the size of the Army of Kentucky remained fluid throughout the war. Turtledove has U.S. Armies being radically different sizes, as well. He seems to call any independent command an army, remember Turtledove called Abner Dowling's force the Eleventh Army when it only had one and a half divisions. Generally I have the average U.S. Army being 9 divisions; 3 Corps, with 3 divisions per Corp. Some have more as 3rd Army was expanded in the Battle of Pittsburgh and some obviously have less.

Imagined each Command in the Army of Kentucky to be 7 to 9 divisions. I imagine the Commands in the Army in Northern Virginia to be smaller.
 
I'm good with those numbers. I have Army Group East with an eventual three armies. A nitpick question, but are we assuming the average division is roughly 15,000 men?
 
I'm good with those numbers. I have Army Group East with an eventual three armies. A nitpick question, but are we assuming the average division is roughly 15,000 men?
15,000 to 16,000 are their planned strength but I imagine after 1941 few are ever at that level thanks to attrition.

I also had Army Group East as three Armies.
 
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