TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[President Mahan]

77, please accept your 'No Prize' (and you too Mister President - for if you can't trust the President of this United Enterprise then whom can you trust?).

Mr B, in defence of my choice of date I felt obliged to pick a day in 1891 by virtue of the fact that this made Irving Morrell a coeval of General Rommel - in fact the Turtledove Wikipedia explicitly lists this as his Birth Year and I have drawn on that resource wherever it gives a Date of Birth - so admittedly I may have inherited an unforced error from Mr Turtledove in the process.

However I do not think this need be a deal-breaker where a 14/2/1891 birth date is concerned; given that the Baja/Sonora Front IS a backwater it would seem unlikely that it drew many West Pointers (whose connections are likely to have pulled more strings than an octopus puppeteer to get their boys onto the Fast Track) or very many of the better sort of Officer Material - so a thoroughly disgusted senior officer in the vicinity might well have been making a point or just following the course of least resistance (Morrell is there and doing the job) by promoting young Irving before his time (after the loss of a Captain to some accident).

I rather enjoy the irony inherent in this version of events, as young Captain Morrell gets a serious kickstart to his career by virtue of having been posted to the very backwater so many have been trying so assiduously to avoid.

It is also equally possible that his promotion was a Brevet commission (a custom which I believe was still practiced in the US Army at this time); had he failed to distinguish himself this promotion might well have been a short-lived one.

The ranks for everyone are so nuts in all these books anything is possible. Yeah I buy it as everything happening in the war is pretty much a brevet rank. After the war they sort it all out. I thought you picked February 14th because it was the anniversary of the Battle of Kaserine Pass. Nice allusion to Sherman. Morrel and Sherman two big brains that were also born killers.

 

[President Mahan]

Also 100th Page!!! Let's keep'me coming.

 

[Trotsky]

Does an 1891 birth year really work for Morrell though? That would mean he was only 23 at the start of the FGW. I don't think that age works with him already being a Captain at the start of the FGW. To give some context, OTL Douglas MacArthur who was the son of an important general and graduated first in his class from West Point with the third highest academic ranking in Academy history, still took nearly 8 years to make Captain after graduating from West Point. Promotions are admittedly probably somewhat faster in the TL-191 US Army (a much bigger army will need lots more officers after all), but even so, it is still hard to believe Morrell could make Captain in just one year. (Especially since the fact that he was initially stationed on the backwater Sonora front suggests he wasn't seen as a particularly important officer in 1914). Thus I would think Morrell would be several years older.

What about July 23, 1885 for his birthday instead? That would make him 29 at the start of the FGW, which is a plausible age for a Captain.

RE explicitly says he'd be turning fifty at the end of 1941.

 

[President Mahan]

Trotsky is right he turns 50 in 1941. First chapter of return engagement:

"Colonel Irving Morrell had always wanted to show the world what fast, modern barrels could do when they were well handled. And so, in a way, he was doing just that. He’d never imagined he would be on the receiving end of the lesson, though, not till mere days before the war broke out. He would be fifty at the end of the year, if he lived that long."

 

[bguy]

Trotsky is right he turns 50 in 1941. First chapter of return engagement:

"Colonel Irving Morrell had always wanted to show the world what fast, modern barrels could do when they were well handled. And so, in a way, he was doing just that. He’d never imagined he would be on the receiving end of the lesson, though, not till mere days before the war broke out. He would be fifty at the end of the year, if he lived that long."

Fair enough. And like you said, it's not the craziest thing done with rank in TL-191.

 

[Trotsky]

Curious, where does he say he turns 50?

His first POV. It makes a point of saying "at the end" of the year, too, so the Feb 14 thing doesn't fly. You know who else was born "at the end" of 1891? Erwin Rommel.

 

[Trotsky]

Fair enough. And like you said, it's not the craziest thing done with rank in TL-191.

Clarence Potter was a major, and if we're using Wilhelm Canaris as his template, he wouldn't quite be 30 when Jake met him.

 

[bguy]

Clarence Potter was a major, and if we're using Wilhelm Canaris as his template, he wouldn't quite be 30 when Jake met him.

Making Major in your late 20s seems plausible enough. I made Lieutenant Commander (the Navy equivalent rank to Major), after a little over six years of active and reserve service, and assuming Potter was commissioned right after graduating from college, that would be about the same length of service for him. And of course by the time Featherston met Potter the war had already been going on for the better part of a year. Promotion is obviously going to occur a lot faster in war time, so that could have given Potter a boost.

Also, is Canaris really a good template for Potter? Yes, Potter had his issues with the Freedom Party and Featherston, but despite that Potter still reliably served Featherston and was a major asset for the Confederate cause throughout the SGW.

 

[President Mahan]

Potter is not Canaris. I get the feeling that Turtledove may have that in mind for him, then made him an almost Skorzeny like character. Canaris was intentionally undermining the regime, potter stayed loyal to the regime even when it was clear the war was lost. Unlike Canaris who joined Stauffenberg.

 

[Tiro]

His first POV. It makes a point of saying "at the end" of the year, too, so the Feb 14 thing doesn't fly. You know who else was born "at the end" of 1891? Erwin Rommel.

Observing this point and President Mahan's statement above, I just wanted to note that I remain a little on the fence when it comes to emphasising the obvious parallels between certain Timeline-191 characters and personages from our own History; while being able to borrow from the latter to enrich portrayals of the former, I do worry that in doing so we might diminish interest to some degree (with some readers shrugging and saying "Oh, so THAT'S who s/he's supposed to be - I know how this goes, no need to read further").

My preferred approach is to strike a balance between Archetypical Character and Individual Person by going off-model in small ways (for example by giving Irving Morrell a birthday other than that of Erwin Rommel); in a nutshell the closer a character is to their original model, the more I feel inclined to differentiate these two (whereas for original creations like C. Burton Mitchel III I generally prefer to borrow more from some Historical model to add verisimilitude).

As I am sure you fellows know well, this can be a tricky balancing act (especially since I see Timeline-191 as at it's best when it is enjoyed as Literary History, rather than as Academia).


By the way, I actually worked out a Birthday for Mr Clarence Potter at some point:- 22nd April 1882 (which if I remember correctly is either the day that the Second Mexican War ended or the day after, making Major Potter very much a product of an enduring CS/US division).

 

[Tiro]

I noticed some discussion on Freedom Party thinking leading into the 'Population Reduction' and I wanted to note my opinion that while there was entire agreement on the End - The Negro kept in line and stricken from a great height when they failed to toe it - there would be a considerable diversity of opinion on just what means they might employ (quite probably a certain disagreement over just where a Negro's place actually was - whether in The Confederacy or anywhere else; it's not impossible that some bright spark came up with the idea of sending them back to Africa and actually thought he'd come up with a brilliantly original idea).

Some would have advocated a still more ironclad Police State (Ferdinand Koenig), some a renewed 'Scientific' slavery (probably some reactionary Whig turncoat who represented the Lunatic Fringe of that party) and others the importation of Mexicans to supplant the Negroes or at any rate offer a valid alternative (NOT Willie Knight, you may be sure, at least anywhere his words might be recorded); quite a few would be in favour of advancing the Confederate infrastructure and technology base to a point where Negroes could be made redundant if it were absolutely necessary (DEFINITELY Willie Knight, whom I see as focussed on strengthening the White Confederacy's position when it came to bartering the Coloured back into submission rather than eliminating that population wholesale - it also amuses me to imagine him as a fairly green-fingered 'Back to the Land' type who probably did more thinking about the Freedom Party/Redemption League agricultural policy than the rest of the Cabinet put together).

"Leave them in Peace and get on with our lives" aka 'Benign Neglect' was probably a policy popular only with a minority of one at best (I'd guess Saul Goldman, but I may be kinder than he deserves - I wonder if he wouldn't be more likely to advocate 'repatriation' to Africa, inspired by the Zionist movement).

The Population Reduction is the logical outgrowth of the Freedom Party's Hatred and Fear of the Negro, but I would suggest that this was an expedient adopted when it became apparent that the Confederate Coloureds weren't going to roll over with the rest of that Nation after the liquidation of Huey Long's Louisiana - clearly there were going to be a lot more Coloured Prisoners than expected, these were the lowest of the low, so why not save time and resources better directed towards the forthcoming War Effort by reducing the surplus population in these prison camps?

Unfortunately, these being incurably nasty b------- it occurred to some Evil Genius that such 'Population Reduction' might be the perfect End towards which to strive rather than a temporary expedient intended to advance the Grand Design of keeping the Negro in his place; more succinctly it was only after the first mass killings in the concentration camps that the Freedom Party decided that the only place for the Confederate Coloured Population in the South was The Grave and not the Breadline.

Does this make sense or have I tangled up my point in a thorny thicket of rambling tangles?

 

[Trotsky]

Making Major in your late 20s seems plausible enough. I made Lieutenant Commander (the Navy equivalent rank to Major), after a little over six years of active and reserve service, and assuming Potter was commissioned right after graduating from college, that would be about the same length of service for him. And of course by the time Featherston met Potter the war had already been going on for the better part of a year. Promotion is obviously going to occur a lot faster in war time, so that could have given Potter a boost.

Also, is Canaris really a good template for Potter? Yes, Potter had his issues with the Freedom Party and Featherston, but despite that Potter still reliably served Featherston and was a major asset for the Confederate cause throughout the SGW.

Before, I wasn't 100% convinced Potter was career military the way, say, the Snake was. Given the comments how he graduated not long before the War began, and how he knew no life other than Army Intelligence and private investigator, guess it makes the best sense that he did join with an eye for long-term work, but was then stopped dead alongside Jake by Stuart. Potter got over it; the Snake, obviously, never did.

And I wasn't using Canaris for anything other than an age template and the vaguest connection in service.

By the way, I actually worked out a Birthday for Mr Clarence Potter at some point:- 22nd April 1882 (which if I remember correctly is either the day that the Second Mexican War ended or the day after, making Major Potter very much a product of an enduring CS/US division).

I'm torn between 1882 which would make more sense given the difference in age between him and Featherston (without pushing the latter's back), and 1887 which would support the "graduated college a few years before the War" thing. Whatever.

The Population Reduction is the logical outgrowth of the Freedom Party's Hatred and Fear of the Negro, but I would suggest that this was an expedient adopted when it became apparent that the Confederate Coloureds weren't going to roll over with the rest of that Nation after the liquidation of Huey Long's Louisiana - clearly there were going to be a lot more Coloured Prisoners than expected, these were the lowest of the low, so why not save time and resources better directed towards the forthcoming War Effort by reducing the surplus population in these prison camps?

Unfortunately, these being incurably nasty b------- it occurred to some Evil Genius that such 'Population Reduction' might be the perfect End towards which to strive rather than a temporary expedient intended to advance the Grand Design of keeping the Negro in his place; more succinctly it was only after the first mass killings in the concentration camps that the Freedom Party decided that the only place for the Confederate Coloured Population in the South was The Grave and not the Breadline.

Does this make sense or have I tangled up my point in a thorny thicket of rambling tangles?

I seem to recall the Snake, moving literally at assembly line speeds right down a list of groups he wants revenge against, mere minutes after disestablishing the Supreme Court, suggesting that the political camps will come in handy in the future when the agriculture machinery program will come into "full maturation."

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

Clarence Potter was (reluctantly) acquitted in the books, and in my Saul Goldman post I had Partridge be found not guilty because of his exceptionally limited role in the war and the Destruction. He was put under house arrest for ~20 years, where he wrote his memoirs The Devil's Deputy.

 

[bguy]

Nimitz was charged with leading a war of aggression, as well as authorizing unrestricted submarine warfare on civilian ships. Nimitz was also charged with willful ignorance of the activities within the Confederate death camps. Nimitz was convicted on all charges and sentenced to death with his sentence carried out on July 4, 1945.

A war of aggression charge seems very unlikely at the Richmond Trials. (Potter would certainly have been convicted of such an offense if the US was utilizing that particular charge.) It's also extremely unlikely the US would punish Nimitz for unrestricted submarine warfare since the US and Germany both undoubtedly employed unrestricted submarine warfare themselves in the First and Second Great Wars.

 

[President Mahan]

Also initially Patton was not in Command of the Army of Kentucky during operation Balckbeard. He was only in command of their barrel forces. I kind of imagined the Armor of Kentucky had an armored Corp. like the Germans during the invasion of France.

 

[rob2001]

I'm curious about why Nimitz received a death sentence? He was pretty much accused of the thing that Grand Admiral Karl Donitz was during the Nuremberg trials and he only received 10 years in prison.

 

[Tiro]

While I do have some reservations about the verdict in the case of Admiral Nimitz and General Patton - who were soldiers fighting a conventional War, rather than the stormtroopers of Abomination so if Clarence Potter can get away with Nuking Philadelphia I doubt these two are due for the chopping block - I would like to say that otherwise this seems a very reasonable take on things Zgradt and well put-together to boot.

 

[Tiro]

I was just reading through the Osprey publishing Campaign sourcebook on the BATTLE OF FALLEN TIMBERS quite recently and was struck while reading up on the Legion of the United States with the thought that 'Legion' might be a pretty fair American equivalent to 'Freikorps'.

I was reminded of the fact that the American Civil War saw the creation of combined arms forces from scratch also called 'Legions' and my conviction was further strengthened (I recall 'Free Corps' being used in the article on President Semmes, but thought that it might not be unreasonable to suggest an alternative); if the Confederate equivalent to those jack-booted precursors to the Stormtroopers operated in much the same fashion, they would have been combined arms operations ... and in all honesty 'Legion' has a slightly-sinister ring that I think suits organisations which likely incorporated more than their fair share of Future Stalwarts.

I wonder which Timeline-191 character would be the most suitable PoV from which to examine this generally-unloveable lot? (Perhaps Roger Kimball - he strikes me as the sort to go looking for a fight and for an organisation which gives him authority over others; I tend to see him as hungry not so much for Power as he is for the chance to run a crew and whip them into shape).

 

[bguy]

While I do have some reservations about the verdict in the case of Admiral Nimitz and General Patton - who were soldiers fighting a conventional War, rather than the stormtroopers of Abomination so if Clarence Potter can get away with Nuking Philadelphia I doubt these two are due for the chopping block - I would like to say that otherwise this seems a very reasonable take on things Zgradt and well put-together to boot.

Patton though committed the biggest war crime of all: he defeated General MacArthur in battle. If MacArthur has any say in the Richmond trials than Patton (and also probably Hank Coomer) will swing.

 

[Tiro]

Well then in this Universe and in any other it is generally wisest to listen to General MacArthur with ears well-protected by a pinch of salt if one elects to risk listening to him at all!