In the long run, I doubt that the Union can hold on to the former CSA. Trying to absorb a country which has been independent for eighty-something years, and has based its national identity on said independence, is not going to go well. The Union has enough trouble with Canada and the Mormons, both of which have much smaller populations.
TL-191: Featherston's Finest - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the CSA and Freedom Party
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
Yeah. It would make sense for the Union to grudgingly grant the individual states of the Confederacy independence in the 10 to 20 years after Victory Day. Only that they're not allowed to form any type of confederation, union, league or shared government.
In addition, I can see the Union Government providing these forces at first hand-down equipment that's not comparable to their latest stuff.
I'm starting the planning phase for a possible 191 based tl that starts after the great war where featherston is killed in the battle of Round Hill at the end of the war. If any of y'all would like to bounce ideas around pm me.
Ooooh, that'll be cool. Maybe a Redemption League-led CSA rather than Freedom as the Freedom Party never grows past a small thing. Or maybe the Freedom Party becomes a semi-large Party in Virginia and the Carolinas under Koenig, but never grows past that while Redemptionist CSA
Willy Knight is young, ambitious, and he might just create a functioning semi-fascist CSA.
But it may not be expansionist per se, not like Featherston, but more akin to getting lands returned, maybe some wars in the Caribbean and a Cold War like environment against the Americans.
I'm not sold on the US keeping Canada, either, but it's a much easier place to keep because the population is that much lower.
As for keeping the former CSA, there's a lot of factors that put that in doubt. Annexing a country that has been independent for four generations, with a population that can't simply be flooded out with your own loyalists, is going to cause serious political problems at best. For one, the former CSA will, at some point, have to be returned to civilian, democratic rule. This means that any politician running for federal office will have to win former Confederate states, meaning keeping the former CSA "by any means necessary" would be political suicide. This also assumes that post-war resistance to what Confederates would see as conquest wouldn't quickly sour American opinions on continued occupation. This population wouldn't be all neo-Freedomites, either: there's a large portion of the Confederate population who would be happy Featherston is gone, but wouldn't be happy that a country they were independent from for eighty-something years has decided theirs doesn't exist. To compare the timescale, imagine mid-19th century America's reaction to British occupation and forced reunion. Or for that matter, how Indians would feel about a return to British rule today.
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Sorry haven't got the pictures lined up. But this is my head cannon for the CSA Navy pre great war capital ship wise. I'll post pics soon promise
CSN Battleships
Virginia Class Constructed 1888-1892
B-1 CSS Virginia (Sold to Mexico 1910)
B-2 CSS North Carolina (Sold to Mexico 1910)
South Carolina Class Constructed 1894-1896
B-3 CSS South Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-4 CSS Georgia (US War Prize Sunk in Aviation Bombing test 1921)
Louisiana Class constructed 1898-1900
B-5 CSS Louisiana
B-6 CSS Arkansas (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-7 CSS Florida
B-8 CSS Cuba (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
Mississippi Class constructed 1906-1908
B-9 CSS Mississippi
B-10 CSS Alabama
Dreadnoughts
North Carolina Class (16,000 tons) Built 1911-1914 slightly larger Espana Class Battleship
B-11 CSS North Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-12 CSS Virginia (Warprize USA Sunk in Aviation bombing test 1921)
B-13 CSS Sonora (Danaged Battle of the Isla Ceralvo 1916/USA War prize scrapped 1918)
B-14 CSS Chihuahua (War prize to Empire of Brazil Refitted 1925 Remaned Pedro II)
Armored Cruisers
Stonewall Class Armored Cruiser (9,996 tons) Constructed 1900-1902 Gloire-class
CA-1 CSS Stonewall
CA-2 CSS Longstreet
CA-3 CSS R.E.Lee (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
Palmetto Class Armored Cruiser (12,550 tons) Constructed 1909-1914 Léon Gambetta-class
CA-4 CSS Palmetto (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
CA-5 CSS JEB Stuart (War Prize to the Empire of Brazil Renamed Manaus)
Battlecruiser (18,500 tons) Started 1913 never finished six 14inch guns in 3x2
Enterprise Class
CC-1 CSS Enterprise (USA Warprize sold for Scrap 1919)
CC-2 CSS Shenandoah (Brazilian Warprize Completed as the Maria I )
CSN Battleships
Virginia Class Constructed 1888-1892
B-1 CSS Virginia (Sold to Mexico 1910)
B-2 CSS North Carolina (Sold to Mexico 1910)
South Carolina Class Constructed 1894-1896
B-3 CSS South Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-4 CSS Georgia (US War Prize Sunk in Aviation Bombing test 1921)
Louisiana Class constructed 1898-1900
B-5 CSS Louisiana
B-6 CSS Arkansas (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-7 CSS Florida
B-8 CSS Cuba (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
Mississippi Class constructed 1906-1908
B-9 CSS Mississippi
B-10 CSS Alabama
Dreadnoughts
North Carolina Class (16,000 tons) Built 1911-1914 slightly larger Espana Class Battleship
B-11 CSS North Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-12 CSS Virginia (Warprize USA Sunk in Aviation bombing test 1921)
B-13 CSS Sonora (Danaged Battle of the Isla Ceralvo 1916/USA War prize scrapped 1918)
B-14 CSS Chihuahua (War prize to Empire of Brazil Refitted 1925 Remaned Pedro II)
Armored Cruisers
Stonewall Class Armored Cruiser (9,996 tons) Constructed 1900-1902 Gloire-class
CA-1 CSS Stonewall
CA-2 CSS Longstreet
CA-3 CSS R.E.Lee (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
Palmetto Class Armored Cruiser (12,550 tons) Constructed 1909-1914 Léon Gambetta-class
CA-4 CSS Palmetto (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
CA-5 CSS JEB Stuart (War Prize to the Empire of Brazil Renamed Manaus)
Battlecruiser (18,500 tons) Started 1913 never finished six 14inch guns in 3x2
Enterprise Class
CC-1 CSS Enterprise (USA Warprize sold for Scrap 1919)
CC-2 CSS Shenandoah (Brazilian Warprize Completed as the Maria I )
I have to disagree: remember that the USA in this timeline isn't quite so liberal and freedom-loving as our own either. the US occupation forces have shown they have no issues killing people in order to maintain, well, order. They have Utah to look to as an example of how letting a population go about their business can bite them in the ass. And plenty of folks will remember the Socialists "causing" the Depression and letting the Second Great War happen in the first place by their accommodation of Featherston, and i'd imagine hardline Democrats are gonna be winning the White House for a long time. Indeed, I'd be amazed if Ohio and Pennsylvania ever vote Socialist again.
I feel like it's kind of overlooked how deep the drive for revenge runs in the Union psyche in this timeline: Clarence Potter often comments on it, either vocally or in rumination. the CSA betrayed the USA and humiliated them, twice, and when the Union finally got its own back in 1917 the CSA basically threw a massive tantrum and tried to destroy the USA completely so that would never happen again.
the USA is never going to allow the CSA to threaten them again.
And how long would that sentiment last? And how much blood is the Union willing to pay, on their end, for that order? I expect violent resistance on a scale that makes Utah pale in comparison. The Union can try to meet that with their own reprisals, but this will only continue that cycle of violence and revenge.
If you're interested in my more detailed arguments and how I think a Union attempt to hold the Confederacy would end, I posted it here. I can buy that the Union would stubbornly try to hold the former CSA, but that path will only lead to more misery for everyone.
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William T. Ponder class Aircraft Carrier (Planned Layout)
Specifications (Planned)
Weight: 28,700 long tons fully loaded
Propulsion: 3x Ingalls geared steam turbines 6x Guyot du Temple boilers
Range: 7,000 nautical miles
Speed: 32 knots
Sensors: Type 79 early warning radar, Type 271 fire control radar, 4x Type 282 anti-aircraft radar.
Armor:
- Belt: 105mm
- Flight Deck: 65mm
- Turrets: 20mm
- Hanger Sides: 45mm
- Bulkheads: 105mm
- 6 x 130mm M1935 DP guns (3x2)
- 8 x 37mm Tredegar M1939 AA guns (4x4)
- 16 x 25mm Tredegar AA guns (8x2)
- 16 Hughes H-38N1 Seadog Fighters
- 12 Talbot T-40 Walrus Dive Bombers*
- 12 Taylorcraft TC-41 Water Moccasin Torpedo Bombers
- 3 Austin A-41 Otter Recon Planes
Ship | Builder | Laid Down | Launched | Commissioned | Fate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| CSS William T. Ponder (C-1) | Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock | September 24th, 1939 | November 19th, 1941 | Late 1942 - Early 1943 (expected) | Scuttled in Mobile, Alabama, June 1944, later raised and sunk in weapons tests in the Atlantic in 1947. |
| C-2 | Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock | January 16th, 1940 | Mid 1943 (expected) | Construction Suspended, March 1942, Broken up on slipway, 1943. | |
| C-3 | Charleston Naval Shipyard (Planned) | Cancelled, May 1940 | |||
| C-4 | New Orleans Naval Yard (Planned) | Cancelled, May 1940 |
==============================
* = Navalized variant of the Mule Dive Bomber
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I would honestly imagine the sentiments the USA would hold would be akin to the Soviets on the "satellite states" they exist at the whim of the central government.
if the CSA ever regains a modicum of independence, it will be as a puppet of the USA, and that's hardly any different from a continued occupation.
I certainly agree there. But the pretense of independence solves a lot of problems that perpetual occupation* or forced integration would bring. Independence movements have more trouble forming because their goal is already ostensibly achieved. A puppet government is an easy scapegoat for discontent. And, nobody has to worry about ex-Confederates voting and steering Union politics in undesirable directions.
* I certainly expect Union forces to remain behind in some capacity, so it's arguably a perpetual occupation anyway.
Confederate Dreadnoughts of the First Great War (Revised)
Sonora class Battleship (1911)
Specifications (As originally completed)
Weight: 19,700 long tons fully loaded
Propulsion: 2x steam turbines
Range: 5,000 nautical miles
Speed: 21 knots
Armor:
J.E.B. Stuart class Battleship (1912)
Specifications (As originally completed)
Weight: 19,700 long tons fully loaded
Propulsion: 2x steam turbines
Range: 5,700 nautical miles
Speed: 21 knots
Armor:
Sonora class Battleship (1911)
Specifications (As originally completed)
Weight: 19,700 long tons fully loaded
Propulsion: 2x steam turbines
Range: 5,000 nautical miles
Speed: 21 knots
Armor:
- Belt: 244mm
- Deck: 72mm
- Turrets: 279mm
- Barbettes: 188mm
- Conning Tower: 240mm
- 10 x 12in guns (5x2)
- 20 x 138mm guns
- 3 x 450mm torpedo tubes
Ship | Builder | Laid Down | Launched | Commissioned | Fate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| CSS Sonora (B-13) | Armstrong-Whitworth, Elswick | May 31st, 1908 | August 17th, 1909 | June 1st, 1911 | Ceded to the USA as a war prize, scrapped in Baltimore, 1919. |
| CSS Tennessee (B-14) | Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock | September 10th, 1908 | September 28th, 1909 | August 19th, 1911 | Ceded to the USA as a war prize, sunk in Aviation bombing test off Martha's Vineyard, 1921. |
J.E.B. Stuart class Battleship (1912)
Specifications (As originally completed)
Weight: 19,700 long tons fully loaded
Propulsion: 2x steam turbines
Range: 5,700 nautical miles
Speed: 21 knots
Armor:
- Belt: 250mm
- Deck: 72mm
- Turrets: 280mm
- Barbettes: 211mm
- Conning Tower: 275mm
- 10 x 12in guns (5x2)
- 16 x 138mm guns
- 3 x 450mm torpedo tubes
Ship | Builder | Laid Down | Launched | Commissioned | Fate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| CSS J.E.B. Stuart (B-15) | Armstrong-Whitworth, Elswick | January 1st, 1909 | September 23rd, 1910 | January 22nd, 1912 | Sunk by Naval Mines in the Chesapeake Bay, June 4th, 1916. |
| CSS Mississippi (B-16) | Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock | February 21st, 1909 | November 3rd, 1910 | March 15th, 1912 | Ceded to Brazil as a War Prize, renamed to Cuiaba, August 1918, sold for scrap to France, 1956. |
| CSS Dixie (B-17) | Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock | January 1st, 1910 | October 10th, 1911 | February 5th, 1913 | Ceded to the USA as a War Prize, sold to Greece in 1919 as Kilkis, sold for scrap to the UK, 1959. |
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Deleted member 160141
I get that they'd include Confederate heroes (JEB Stuart) and general concepts (Dixie), but why not states?
They're easily the most important thing in their history and society regardless of whether they still keep the "states' rights" slogan or not.
Looks like French influence. Thats also the way I go when I think about Confederate ships. love the ship designs keep up the good work.
I agree the CSN would (and Did kinda name its capital ships ( Coastal Ironclads, and some Raiders) after States. However we are each entitled to our own Head Cannon.
I view Ships named after Famous leaders or broad concepts would be cruisers Battle Cruisers or Carriers.
my earlier post as example.
CSN Battleships
Virginia Class Constructed 1888-1892
B-1 CSS Virginia (Sold to Mexico 1910)
B-2 CSS North Carolina (Sold to Mexico 1910)
South Carolina Class Constructed 1894-1896 First Domestically designed Battleship
B-3 CSS South Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-4 CSS Georgia (US War Prize Sunk in Aviation Bombing test 1921)
Louisiana Class constructed 1898-1900
B-5 CSS Louisiana
B-6 CSS Arkansas (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-7 CSS Florida
B-8 CSS Cuba (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
Mississippi Class constructed 1906-1908
B-9 CSS Mississippi (Ex-:Lord Nelson )
B-10 CSS Alabama (Ex-Agamemnon)
The Royal Navy sold the two Lord Nelson Class Predreadnougthts while under construction to help build two additional Dreadnought Class Battleships.
Dreadnoughts
North Carolina Class (16,000 tons) Built 1911-1914 slightly larger Espana Class Battleship
B-11 CSS North Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-12 CSS Virginia (Warprize USA Sunk in Aviation bombing test 1921)
B-13 CSS Sonora (Danaged Battle of the Isla Ceralvo 1916/USA War prize repaired Sold the Republic of Mexico 1920)
B-14 CSS Chihuahua (War prize to Empire of Brazil Refitted 1925 Remaned Pedro II)
Armored Cruisers
Stonewall Class Armored Cruiser (9,996 tons) Constructed 1900-1902
CA-1 CSS Stonewall
CA-2 CSS Longstreet
CA-3 CSS R.E.Lee (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
Palmetto Class Armored Cruiser (12,550 tons) Constructed 1909-1914 Léon Gambetta-class
CA-4 CSS Palmetto (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
CA-5 CSS JEB Stuart (War Prize to the Empire of Brazil Renamed Manaus)
Battlecruiser (18,500 tons) Started 1913 never finished six 14inch guns in 3x2
Enterprise Class
CC-1 CSS Enterprise (USA Warprize sold for Scrap 1919)
CC-2 CSS Shenandoah (Brazilian Warprize Completed as the Maria I )
All pictures come from Ship bucket and save for minor alteations to some flags are not my work credits are on the the drawings.
Virginia Class Constructed 1888-1892
B-1 CSS Virginia (Sold to Mexico 1910)
B-2 CSS North Carolina (Sold to Mexico 1910)
South Carolina Class Constructed 1894-1896 First Domestically designed Battleship
B-3 CSS South Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-4 CSS Georgia (US War Prize Sunk in Aviation Bombing test 1921)
Louisiana Class constructed 1898-1900
B-5 CSS Louisiana
B-6 CSS Arkansas (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-7 CSS Florida
B-8 CSS Cuba (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
Mississippi Class constructed 1906-1908
B-9 CSS Mississippi (Ex-:Lord Nelson )
B-10 CSS Alabama (Ex-Agamemnon)
The Royal Navy sold the two Lord Nelson Class Predreadnougthts while under construction to help build two additional Dreadnought Class Battleships.
Dreadnoughts
North Carolina Class (16,000 tons) Built 1911-1914 slightly larger Espana Class Battleship
B-11 CSS North Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-12 CSS Virginia (Warprize USA Sunk in Aviation bombing test 1921)
B-13 CSS Sonora (Danaged Battle of the Isla Ceralvo 1916/USA War prize repaired Sold the Republic of Mexico 1920)
B-14 CSS Chihuahua (War prize to Empire of Brazil Refitted 1925 Remaned Pedro II)
Armored Cruisers
Stonewall Class Armored Cruiser (9,996 tons) Constructed 1900-1902
CA-1 CSS Stonewall
CA-2 CSS Longstreet
CA-3 CSS R.E.Lee (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
Palmetto Class Armored Cruiser (12,550 tons) Constructed 1909-1914 Léon Gambetta-class
CA-4 CSS Palmetto (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
CA-5 CSS JEB Stuart (War Prize to the Empire of Brazil Renamed Manaus)
Battlecruiser (18,500 tons) Started 1913 never finished six 14inch guns in 3x2
Enterprise Class
CC-1 CSS Enterprise (USA Warprize sold for Scrap 1919)
CC-2 CSS Shenandoah (Brazilian Warprize Completed as the Maria I )
All pictures come from Ship bucket and save for minor alteations to some flags are not my work credits are on the the drawings.
Attachments
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Interesting. If you want to use some other designs for the confederate Navy, in the Alternate history section of Shipbucket.com their is a timeline called War of the Americas, it has some very interesting designs for the CSN.CSN Battleships
Virginia Class Constructed 1888-1892
B-1 CSS Virginia (Sold to Mexico 1910)
B-2 CSS North Carolina (Sold to Mexico 1910)
View attachment 636371
South Carolina Class Constructed 1894-1896 First Domestically designed Battleship
B-3 CSS South Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-4 CSS Georgia (US War Prize Sunk in Aviation Bombing test 1921)
View attachment 636372
Louisiana Class constructed 1898-1900
B-5 CSS Louisiana
B-6 CSS Arkansas (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-7 CSS Florida
B-8 CSS Cuba (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
View attachment 636373
Mississippi Class constructed 1906-1908
B-9 CSS Mississippi (Ex-:Lord Nelson )
B-10 CSS Alabama (Ex-Agamemnon)
The Royal Navy sold the two Lord Nelson Class Predreadnougthts while under construction to help build two additional Dreadnought Class Battleships.
Dreadnoughts
View attachment 636407
North Carolina Class (16,000 tons) Built 1911-1914 slightly larger Espana Class Battleship
B-11 CSS North Carolina (Sunk Battle of the Capes 1915)
B-12 CSS Virginia (Warprize USA Sunk in Aviation bombing test 1921)
B-13 CSS Sonora (Danaged Battle of the Isla Ceralvo 1916/USA War prize repaired Sold the Republic of Mexico 1920)
B-14 CSS Chihuahua (War prize to Empire of Brazil Refitted 1925 Remaned Pedro II)
Armored Cruisers
View attachment 636375
Stonewall Class Armored Cruiser (9,996 tons) Constructed 1900-1902
CA-1 CSS Stonewall
CA-2 CSS Longstreet
CA-3 CSS R.E.Lee (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
View attachment 636376
Palmetto Class Armored Cruiser (12,550 tons) Constructed 1909-1914 Léon Gambetta-class
CA-4 CSS Palmetto (Sunk Battle of the Azores 1914)
CA-5 CSS JEB Stuart (War Prize to the Empire of Brazil Renamed Manaus)
Battlecruiser (18,500 tons) Started 1913 never finished six 14inch guns in 3x2
Enterprise Class
CC-1 CSS Enterprise (USA Warprize sold for Scrap 1919)
CC-2 CSS Shenandoah (Brazilian Warprize Completed as the Maria I )
All pictures come from Ship bucket and save for minor alteations to some flags are not my work credits are on the the drawings.
The Austin A-41 Otter of the 17th Naval Reconnaissance Squadron based out of the Hatteras Naval Air Station, circa 1943. The Otter was developed in 1939 to meet a CSN requirement for a new, fast, long range recon plane that was to deployed from the William T. Ponder class Aircraft Carriers. The Otter would enter service in 1941, but would never serve aboard the carriers as intended as they were not completed by war's end, but instead operated out of onshore installations until war's end, by which time, 124 airframes would be completed. A single example is preserved at the Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum in Everett Washington.
Taylorcraft TC-41 Water Moccasin Torpedo Bomber from the 6th Anti-Submarine Squadron stationed at Fort Lauderdale, circa August of 1943. Another aircraft model intended to operate from aircraft carriers, the TC-41 Water Moccasin would begin life as the Model 331, which was a failed competitor to the Talbot T-37 Mule. The design would be heavily modified in 1940 to serve as a torpedo bomber, which could carry a single 800 pound Mark 56 torpedo or up to 3 200 pound depth charges, in addition to 2 7.7mm machine-guns in the rear for defensive armament. During the Second Great War, the Water Moccasin would see heavy use not as a torpedo bomber as intended, but in an anti-submarine role, where the type was credited with the sinking of 3 Union Navy submarines in addition to more being damaged. A total of 155 airframes would be built from December of 1941 to June of 1942, in which none survive to the present day.
Hughes H-38N-1 Seadog Float Fighter as stationed aboard the aircraft cruiser CSS Havana during the Second Battle of Bermuda. With the decision by the Confederate Navy to modify the incomplete light cruiser Havana into an improvised aircraft carrier, the decision was also taken to have a modified variant of the Hound Dog to be based from the cruiser as a floatfighter, which would theoretically provide a fleet operating in the Atlantic fighter cover. A total of 50 of the specially modified H-38 fighters would be manufactured, in which some would also operate from isolated islands in the Bahamas and the Caribbean.