TL-191: Featherston's Finest - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the CSA and Freedom Party
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
The Roman-esque theme wasn't limited to the Nazis. Indeed, it's general Fascist aesthetic. Italy did it first.
Its the Union that has more of a Nazi vibe IMO than the CSA but it should actually be more of an Imperial German look.
The Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers of the Confederate Navy during the First Great War. = Incomplete ships would be listed in italic.
Thomas Jackson class Battlecruiser - Thomas Jackson, Nathan B. Forrest, F-107 (intended name: Jefferson Davis). First drawn up in 1914 as a battlecruiser design that could be constructed quickly. However due to a shortage of labor (especially with the Red Negro Revolts) and to strategic materials, none of them would be completed by war's end. Following the Treaty of Arlington, the incomplete hulls of the Jefferson Davis and Thomas Jackson would be sold for scrap in Newport News in 1918. The Nathan B. Forrest would be taken by the Union as war reparations, and would be studied before being sunk Union Battleships in 1921 for target practice.
F-81 class Super Dreadnought - F-81, F-82, F-83, and F-84. First laid down in late 1914 as a response to reports of the Union constructing 4 battleships armed with 16' guns. The planned armament for this class was to be 4 dual mount 16' guns. Unfortunately, due to the same reasons as the Thomas Jackson class Battlecruisers, none of them would be completed or even launched before the armistice. All four of the incomplete vessels would ultimately be broken up on the slipways in 1920 at Newport News. The 16' guns that were planned for the ships would be instead used as railroad artillery by the Confederate Army.
Alabama class Battleship - Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, and Revenge. Laid down in 1912 as a response to the Union Navy constructing the Nevada class Battleship, which the class was an identical copy to the British Queen Elizabeth class. During the war, only the Alabama, Texas, and Arkansas would be completed and would enter service whereas the construction on the CSS Revenge would be suspended due to manpower and material shortages. Throughout the war, the class would take part in several naval clashes with the Union Navy, most notably during Operation: Postman in August of 1916. Following the Armistice of 1917, all three members of the class would sail into Delaware Bay for internment while their future was to be determined at Arlington. On June 21st, 1918, upon hearing the word that all of the dreadnoughts owned by the Confederate Navy were to be turned over to the Union Navy, Confederate Admiral Thomas B. Bellingham would order the Confederate 1st Battle Squadron to scuttle the ships. The Battleships Alabama and Texas would be successfully scuttled whereas the Arkansas would be boarded by Union Marines and be beached along the shore of East Point. The Arkansas would be refloated, examined, and ultimately sunk by gunfire from the Battleships USS Nevada and Minnesota in 1920 for target practice in the Atlantic Ocean. The Texas and Alabama would be raised in the 1920s and 1930s and would be broken up for scrap in Delaware.
Andrew Jackson class Battleship - Andrew Jackson, Reprisal, Braxton Bragg, and Sequoya. Designed after the King George V class Battleship and ordered as a response to the New York class of the Union Navy. The Andrew Jackson class' only difference from the KGV class was that it has triple mount 13' guns. Three of the ships, the Reprisal, Bragg, and Sequoya would only be constructed within the Confederacy whereas the Andrew Jackson would be constructed in Birkenhead in the UK, making her the last Confederate battleship to be built in the UK. During the war, the class would see heavy action against the Union Navy. The CSS Sequoya would be lost to the Union Navy during a naval action in the Chesapeake Bay in July of 1916, which her wreck is currently protected as a war grave. The Andrew Jackson and Bragg would both be interned at Delaware Bay following the armistice and would ultimately be scuttled there with the rest of the 1st Battle Squadron in 1918. Both ships would be raised in the late 1930s and would be broken up in 1945 in Delaware. The Reprisal would not be with the 1st Battle Squadron at the time due to damage from a naval mine she had suffered from in 1917, in which she would be sold to Brazil in 1919 and be renamed as the Cuiaba, serving with Brazil until 1945 and would be sold to breakers in France in 1957.
Dixie class Battleship - Dixie, Georgia, Constitution, and Camp Hill. Modeled after the British Battleship Neptune, the Dixie class would be constructed as part the CSN's 1908 Naval Expansion Program. During the 1st Great War, the ships would all serve in the Confederate Atlantic Fleet, being involved in numerous clashes with the Union Navy. During one such engagement in 1915, the CSS Georgia would be lost due to a shell from the USS New Hampshire striking her magazine storage, blowing her up. Following the war, the remaining ships would be given to the Union as War Prizes, in which, the Union Navy would sell all three to the navies of Spain, Chile, and Greece. The Dixie would be given to the Greek Navy and would serve as the Kilkis as a frontline ship until 1948 when she became a depot ship, then was sold to breakers in France in 1955. The Constitution would be sold to Chile and be renamed to the Constitucion and would serve as a frontline ship until 1943 when she became a gunnery training vessel, to which she served in that role until 1953 when she was sold for scrap in the UK. The Camp Hill would be sold to Spain and be renamed to the Cristobol Colon to replace an older ship of the same name and would serve with Spain until 1963, becoming to last Confederate Battleship in the world. During her Spanish Service, she would fight with the Nationalist Faction during the Spanish Civil War and would fire her guns in anger for a final time during the Ifni War in 1958.
CSS Liberty - A modification to the Tennessee class Battleship, the CSS Liberty would have more powerful secondary guns and better underwater protection. She would be commissioned to the fleet in 1910 and would serve in the Atlantic Fleet. During the First Great War, she would be engaged in several naval engagement with the Union Navy in the Atlantic, and would be the first notable ship to be bombed by aircraft in 1915 while off the coast of Delaware. After the armistice of 1917 and the subsequent Treaty of Arlington on 1918, the CSS Liberty would be awarded to the Union as a War Prize, but would however be broken up at Mobile Alabama in 1920.
Tennessee class Battleship - Tennessee, Domination, and Liberty (built to a modified design.) With the advent of the HMS Dreadnought in 1905, the Confederacy would order two similar ships from British, which they would also receive technical data on constructing a third shipyard at Newport News (though it would end up being built to a modified design.) The two battleships, the CSS Tennessee and Kentucky would both be completed and delivered to the Confederate Navy in 1908, serving with the Atlantic Fleet. During the first year of the First Great War, the two ships would be with the Altantic Fleet, didn't see much action aside from the New York City raid in September of 1914. In August of 1915, the two ships would be transferred to the Confederacy's Gulf Fleet at their new base at Tampa Bay in Florida. Following war's end and the Arlington Conference and Treaty, both ships would be awarded to the Confederacy as war prizes, with the Tennessee being broken up for scrap in Norfolk in 1920. The CSS Domination however would be used for target practice by the Union Army Air Service to demonstrate Billy Mitchell's theory that air power can defeat warships. The Domination would be sunk alongside with other former Confederate Warships off the coast of New Jersey in 1921, in which many admirals were horrified to find that aircraft can sink ships.
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All of my Confederate Aircraft that I have made in their liveries
A Schofield F-38 of the 4th Pursuit Squadron based near Newport News, circa 1941.
A Schofield F-387 belonging to an unknown squadron based in Eastern Texas, circa 1944.
A Razorback Bomber from the 17th Heavy Bombardment Squadron which took part in an mass air raid on Detroit, circa 1942.
A Schofield F-38 of the 4th Pursuit Squadron based near Newport News, circa 1941.
A Schofield F-387 belonging to an unknown squadron based in Eastern Texas, circa 1944.
A Razorback Bomber from the 17th Heavy Bombardment Squadron which took part in an mass air raid on Detroit, circa 1942.
I feel I would say this: the CSA probably wouldn't have so many classes of Battleship, if for no other reason than they wouldn't have the infrastructure to make them.
We're told repeatedly throughout the GW1 trilogy that the CSA tends to fall short of the Union in terms of industrial output, relying on their alliance with the UK and France to aid them in times of crisis.
While certainly they would HAVE Battleships, they'd not likely have anything like the Battlecruisers: those were more an affection of the British and Germans. the CSA's limited industrial capacity would likely go towards cruisers and submarines, to uphold their traditional stance of commerce raiding, and river warfare.
We're told repeatedly throughout the GW1 trilogy that the CSA tends to fall short of the Union in terms of industrial output, relying on their alliance with the UK and France to aid them in times of crisis.
While certainly they would HAVE Battleships, they'd not likely have anything like the Battlecruisers: those were more an affection of the British and Germans. the CSA's limited industrial capacity would likely go towards cruisers and submarines, to uphold their traditional stance of commerce raiding, and river warfare.
Unofficially used guns of the Confederate Military.
Ferguson Model G-22 - 9x22mm.
The Ferguson Arms Company's first commercially successful firearm, the Model G-22 was chambered for the newly developed 9x22mm Ferguson Pistol Ammunition. Though rejected by the Confederate Military, the G-22 was however privately purchased by CS Military Officers and were use during the Two Great Wars. Clarence Potter would be in possession of this pistol shown above when he purchased it in 1913 and would carry throughout the First Great War and also during the interwar years and the Second Great War. Potter's pistol would be confiscated by a Union Soldier who brought it home as a souvenir and it would sell at auction in 2017 for 2 Million Dollars. The pistol would also be used officially by the Confederate Police, Department of the Interior, Prison System, and would be used by the Militaries of Mexico, Nicaragua, Peru, and Venezuela. A total of 340,000 pistols were manufactured between 1909 and 1918, with a substantial number of unlicensed copies of the gun originating from Central America.
I took a Reifgraber Pistol and extended the barrel and grip.
Ferguson Automatic Rifle M1917 - .303 Confederate.
During the meat grinder known as the First Great War, the Confederate Ordnance Board would searching for a good weapon that would useful for the trench warfare. In 1915, the Confederate Military would create the Automatic Rifle program, which it's goal was the development of a new rapid fire rifle that act as a trench broom. There a large number of submissions, but only one would be accepted, and it was from Joseph Ferguson of the Ferguson Arms Company. Ferguson's submission was a conversion of the Lee-Tredegar M1895 and M1889 rifles into an automatic rifle which included a new 25 round box magazine (and also a 45 round magazine, though none have survived to the present day). In July of 1917, the rifle was adopted the Confederate Ordnance Board ordered a total of 25,000 conversions of the older patterns of Lee-Tredegar Rifles to be done by the Griswold, United Steel, Tredegar, and Ferguson companies. However, the war would end with only around 550 conversions ever being made with most of them being turned over to the Union as war reparations. A small number would be secretly kept by the Confederate Army, and Joe Ferguson would use this design as base for his 1935 Rifle Trials gun, which was a select fire rifle but however lost to the Tredegar Design. In the present day, only 11 of these rifles remain, 4 in museums and the remainder in private hands.
I used a Charlton Automatic Rifle and added an L4 Bren Magazine and added finger grooves to the rear pistol grip.
Ferguson Model G-22 - 9x22mm.
The Ferguson Arms Company's first commercially successful firearm, the Model G-22 was chambered for the newly developed 9x22mm Ferguson Pistol Ammunition. Though rejected by the Confederate Military, the G-22 was however privately purchased by CS Military Officers and were use during the Two Great Wars. Clarence Potter would be in possession of this pistol shown above when he purchased it in 1913 and would carry throughout the First Great War and also during the interwar years and the Second Great War. Potter's pistol would be confiscated by a Union Soldier who brought it home as a souvenir and it would sell at auction in 2017 for 2 Million Dollars. The pistol would also be used officially by the Confederate Police, Department of the Interior, Prison System, and would be used by the Militaries of Mexico, Nicaragua, Peru, and Venezuela. A total of 340,000 pistols were manufactured between 1909 and 1918, with a substantial number of unlicensed copies of the gun originating from Central America.
I took a Reifgraber Pistol and extended the barrel and grip.
Ferguson Automatic Rifle M1917 - .303 Confederate.
During the meat grinder known as the First Great War, the Confederate Ordnance Board would searching for a good weapon that would useful for the trench warfare. In 1915, the Confederate Military would create the Automatic Rifle program, which it's goal was the development of a new rapid fire rifle that act as a trench broom. There a large number of submissions, but only one would be accepted, and it was from Joseph Ferguson of the Ferguson Arms Company. Ferguson's submission was a conversion of the Lee-Tredegar M1895 and M1889 rifles into an automatic rifle which included a new 25 round box magazine (and also a 45 round magazine, though none have survived to the present day). In July of 1917, the rifle was adopted the Confederate Ordnance Board ordered a total of 25,000 conversions of the older patterns of Lee-Tredegar Rifles to be done by the Griswold, United Steel, Tredegar, and Ferguson companies. However, the war would end with only around 550 conversions ever being made with most of them being turned over to the Union as war reparations. A small number would be secretly kept by the Confederate Army, and Joe Ferguson would use this design as base for his 1935 Rifle Trials gun, which was a select fire rifle but however lost to the Tredegar Design. In the present day, only 11 of these rifles remain, 4 in museums and the remainder in private hands.
I used a Charlton Automatic Rifle and added an L4 Bren Magazine and added finger grooves to the rear pistol grip.
I dunno why but I like the idea of the CSA's Panther equivalent being called the Patriot. I think it fits well with the proposals to call the main Confederate tank the Stalwart - I like the idea of Southern tanks referring to archetypes rather than generals (like the US) but not necessarily calling them all after animals like the Nazis. Some can be, just not all.
IIRC it was said that the South used a copy of the French M1897 75mm during WW1; I can see that still being pressed into service during WW2 as a light artillery piece - like the French did, upgrade it with more modern wheels and the like. It's obsolescent but it's what the South has (I personally estimate somewhere between 35-40 million white and Hispanic citizens for the South at best (and 6-8 million black citizens) going against 80-90 million Northerners and the South is far less industrialised than the North). It's largely been supplanted by an alt-TL version of the 105mm M101
Also thinking of something like the T8, 90-105mm AT gun as the Confederate version of the Pak 8.8
en.wikipedia.org
One vague idea I had was that the South uses a revolver during WW1 (perhaps a Webley clone) but switches over to a semi-automatic handgun during WW2 (some generic 9mm thing) except for the Navy and Marine Corp, who are shorter on funds and thus avoid switching weapons since pistols aren't that important. So it can be a sign of how underfunded the Confederate naval arm is.
I like the idea of the South using the iconic Pineapple grenade but it's probably better if they use some kind of copy of the Mills grenade or the F1. I can easily see the South copying a lot of designs, even Northern ones, when they have to to make up for industrial shortfalls - faster to just nick someone else's idea, particularly given the suggestion that the South can produce individual geniuses but struggles to maintain a flow of experts.
IIRC it was said that the South used a copy of the French M1897 75mm during WW1; I can see that still being pressed into service during WW2 as a light artillery piece - like the French did, upgrade it with more modern wheels and the like. It's obsolescent but it's what the South has (I personally estimate somewhere between 35-40 million white and Hispanic citizens for the South at best (and 6-8 million black citizens) going against 80-90 million Northerners and the South is far less industrialised than the North). It's largely been supplanted by an alt-TL version of the 105mm M101
Also thinking of something like the T8, 90-105mm AT gun as the Confederate version of the Pak 8.8
105 mm gun T8 - Wikipedia
One vague idea I had was that the South uses a revolver during WW1 (perhaps a Webley clone) but switches over to a semi-automatic handgun during WW2 (some generic 9mm thing) except for the Navy and Marine Corp, who are shorter on funds and thus avoid switching weapons since pistols aren't that important. So it can be a sign of how underfunded the Confederate naval arm is.
I like the idea of the South using the iconic Pineapple grenade but it's probably better if they use some kind of copy of the Mills grenade or the F1. I can easily see the South copying a lot of designs, even Northern ones, when they have to to make up for industrial shortfalls - faster to just nick someone else's idea, particularly given the suggestion that the South can produce individual geniuses but struggles to maintain a flow of experts.
I gave a lot og thought to what calibers the CS might use in their pistols, IIRC the US used the 45 but I don't remember if it was mentioned what the CS used, maybe 455, maybe they also used the 45 but that seems a little unlikely and I don't think they would use the 9mm because that was what one of their enemies the Germans used.I dunno why but I like the idea of the CSA's Panther equivalent being called the Patriot. I think it fits well with the proposals to call the main Confederate tank the Stalwart - I like the idea of Southern tanks referring to archetypes rather than generals (like the US) but not necessarily calling them all after animals like the Nazis. Some can be, just not all.
IIRC it was said that the South used a copy of the French M1897 75mm during WW1; I can see that still being pressed into service during WW2 as a light artillery piece - like the French did, upgrade it with more modern wheels and the like. It's obsolescent but it's what the South has (I personally estimate somewhere between 35-40 million white and Hispanic citizens for the South at best (and 6-8 million black citizens) going against 80-90 million Northerners and the South is far less industrialised than the North). It's largely been supplanted by an alt-TL version of the 105mm M101
Also thinking of something like the T8, 90-105mm AT gun as the Confederate version of the Pak 8.8
105 mm gun T8 - Wikipedia
One vague idea I had was that the South uses a revolver during WW1 (perhaps a Webley clone) but switches over to a semi-automatic handgun during WW2 (some generic 9mm thing) except for the Navy and Marine Corp, who are shorter on funds and thus avoid switching weapons since pistols aren't that important. So it can be a sign of how underfunded the Confederate naval arm is.
I like the idea of the South using the iconic Pineapple grenade but it's probably better if they use some kind of copy of the Mills grenade or the F1. I can easily see the South copying a lot of designs, even Northern ones, when they have to to make up for industrial shortfalls - faster to just nick someone else's idea, particularly given the suggestion that the South can produce individual geniuses but struggles to maintain a flow of experts.
In one my alt pistol designs I described the gun being a 44 caliber, an updated version of the 44 cap and ball round they used in the Civil war.
Fair enough, that makes sense.
Any idea on Southern machine guns? I gather their main MG is a MG-34/42 inspired thing but they also have heavy MGs but I am not sure if they would use the same ammunition as the North (who apparently still use the Browning). Maybe the South would use something like the DShK, similar concept but not the same as the Browning
I also figure that like the Wehrmacht, they would still have water-cooled MGs still in service as well, I'd guess they'd use the Vickers or possibly their own design.
Again we can only speculate about heavier calibers but a few folks here mentioned that John Browning was a Mormon so its possible he took his designs to the CSA instead of the US, so maybe the US used German calibers and similar types of small arms and the CS used Browning weapons.
Fair does.
Btw I really liked your Griswold SMG designs. In my head both the "wood furniture" and "Grease-MP40 hybrid" would exist but would be two different designs, the former an earlier, better quality design implemented before TAR came into service, at which point the Confederacy realised it didn't need expensive, hard to manufacture SMGs and looked towards developing a cheaper, stamped sub-machine gun that could be easily mass produced. The earlier Griswold design might still find use in certain units like paratroopers, commandos and honour guard but never as the main SMG.
My idea is that the CSA develops a 9mm caliber on it's own, being the 9x22mm Ferguson Cartridge
Actually, I'm reasonably sure that the stamped one would be issued to paratroopers. The lighter the weapon, the more useful it is for them (Note that the British issued the Sten to them and used their supply of heavier wood furniture weapons forrear areas. And the Germans never issued the heavier ones to anyone but the SS and police units).We do know that the heavier SMG was used extensively in the CSA camp system. One of Hip Rodriguez's POV sections specifically calls out its utility in having a solid butt you can use. The same goes for commandos as paratroopers. They would prefer lighter weapons to the big bulky Thompson and PPSH-style SMGs. Unless they were masquerading as Yankees.
I applaud the thought, particularly the images (how did you make those, btw? I know more than one person who would love to be able to use any tools you might know of). I do think that you might be giving the Confederates a bit too much credit in the capital ship department. I don't know if the logistics of it were discussed in the Navy Blue and Gray thread, but i'm reasonably certain that the Confederates would have been hard pressed to have nearly that many ships (given their comparatively small industry compared to the Union). Also I think naming a ship "Domination" would be too authoritarian for the South in TL-191. Even at the height of the Freedom Party's crimes, they did like to pretend they were "the freest nation in the world" and skirted the appearance of dictatorship as much as possible.
I reckon the South would also utilise something akin to the DUKW. While the Union would also get them as well, the South's focus on rearmament and geography would them the first to employ them. Probably multiple amphibious vehicles.
I am also thinking their would be a counterpart to the jagdpanther, given the South develops a Panther counterpart and tank destroyers are easier to manufacture. Probably carry a 90mm cannon.
One thing I would observe is that the South gets the Mark 5, which is a heavy tank (it has a 4 or 5 inch gun, estimated by one character, if memory serves, which I headcanon as 120mm) but they don't have any before that? Then again, given the Union's Custer has a 60mm gun and the main Southern tank only 50mm, the Panther counterpart could almost count.
I am also thinking of an armoured car being developed comparable to the M38
en.wikipedia.org
I am also thinking their would be a counterpart to the jagdpanther, given the South develops a Panther counterpart and tank destroyers are easier to manufacture. Probably carry a 90mm cannon.
One thing I would observe is that the South gets the Mark 5, which is a heavy tank (it has a 4 or 5 inch gun, estimated by one character, if memory serves, which I headcanon as 120mm) but they don't have any before that? Then again, given the Union's Custer has a 60mm gun and the main Southern tank only 50mm, the Panther counterpart could almost count.
I am also thinking of an armoured car being developed comparable to the M38
M38 Wolfhound - Wikipedia
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The Tredegar Automatic Rifle always came across as a battle rifle to me in concept, using a full power cartridge. To have any hope of making it controllable I suspect the rate of fire would be relatively low, between 500 and 600 rpm, possibly slightly lower. I suspect the rifle would generally be used in a semi-automatic setting.
I made two versions of the Tredegar rifle, one an only semi-automatic rifle and the other a BAR-style full auto only weapon.
you can see both on page 4 of this thread.
It is far more likely that a Tredegar is something along the lines of a more powerful M1 Carbine. A full size rifle isn't really controllable on any sort of full auto except when braced or supported when prone. Its mentioned frequently being used in full auto while someone is standing.