TL-191: Featherston's Finest - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the CSA and Freedom Party

The Confederate army uniform of the 40s were clearly described as what the OTL U.S. Army wore post-1942: khaki/butternut color from before, but looser and open at the neck. Helmets that issued more protection than the tin hats from the last war, that somewhat resembled the helmets* of their U.S. opponents but weren't quite--so, the M1, in other words.

*which were described in Morrell's last scene in the first GW novel as steel pots but with a flap extension that stuck out around the neck, so I'd say it's pretty fair to say the U.S. wore stalhelms, and the C.S. altered it to make the M1
 
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The Confederate army uniform of the 40s were clearly described as what the OTL U.S. Army wore post-1942: khaki/butternut color from before, but looser and open at the neck. Helmets that issued more protection than the tin hats from the last war, that somewhat resembled the helmets* of their U.S. opponents but weren't quite--so, the M1, in other words.

*which were described in Morrell's last scene in the first GW novel as steel pots but with a flap extension that stuck out around the neck, so I'd say it's pretty fair to say the U.S. wore stalhelms, and the C.S. altered it to make the M1

I'd take that honestly! The Confederates using a design similar, if not exactly, like the M1. And the M1 certainly allowed for more protection for the head. You know what this reminds me of? For the Confederate helmets, now that you mention it... the French in our timeline developed the M51 Helmet, which was indirectly inspired by and meant to somewhat resemble the US M1 Helmet. Sure its technically a post-war design, but the resemblance is roughly similar enough.

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I can certainly see the Confederate Army adopting this helmet, if someone wanted to avoid using the M1 entirely and go for a similar design. Pangur actually referenced a Vickers Helmet too, which seems to be an Irish copy of the German Stahlhelm of all things!
 
Point taken on the Mexicans. As for the Confederates I forgot about this when I was posting earlier, the Vickers helmet So its quite possible to keep to the British influence and keep to canon!

Yooo, what the heck! This helmet is wild! XD

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Of all the armies on earth, I never would have expected the Irish to adopt the Stahlhelm! And look at those uniforms and rifles! Although to be honest I can see this more as a US Army Helmet of the Great War, I'd say it wouldn't be a stretch for the Confederates to issue this to its armies in, say the Interwar war years, or even to rear echelon units.
 

Pangur

Donor
Yooo, what the heck! This helmet is wild! XD

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Of all the armies on earth, I never would have expected the Irish to adopt the Stahlhelm! And look at those uniforms and rifles! Although to be honest I can see this more as a US Army Helmet of the Great War, I'd say it wouldn't be a stretch for the Confederates to issue this to its armies in, say the Interwar war years, or even to rear echelon units.
The folk selecting the helmet made a good pick technically, it gave far better protection than anything else that was going. The rifles are 303`s, again a good pick. However with the 303 its worth pointing out that they had massive stocks available
 
I imagined the Confederates being a mix of historical American/Confederate and German uniforms. They would be equipped with a butternut (khaki-ish) colored M1 helmet, without any netting early on in the war but perhaps with some later on. Perhaps for some units the side of the helmet would have an insignia, maybe a Freedom Party flag or the Confederate seal. Their "shirt" would be similar to the German one with collar patches holding rank/unit and on the left breast being the Confederate seal (modified to the Freedom Party's liking, of course. So probably just George Washington and his horse and a Southern Cross thrown in somewhere, maybe below for added parallelism) in darker gray instead of the German eagle in lighter silver. Their trousers would be like any other army, but in Confederate "butternut" color. I'd imagine, considering the advancement of Southern industry and plethora of cotton, CS soldiers, at least early on in the war, would wear socks of some kind instead of wrappings whereas Mexicans and maybe some American units would continue to wear wrappings. The Freedom Party Guards I imagined being similar to the historical US Marines and SS. Their camo was similar to the Marines, but their helmet and collar patch decals being reminiscent of the Waffen-SS, maybe with a Freedom Party flag on it's side instead of the SS runes. Confederate officers uniforms I imagined being similar to British ones. They would be butternut colored, but with a decently wide patch of some color like black or gray instead of bright red (keeping in line with Southern roots). Instead of a Royal seal/crest/whatever Confederate officers would have on their hats either a generic Confederate seal for regular army or a Freedom Party seal for the Guards (who had gray uniforms IIRC, though I imagined their uniforms being a lighter gray like the historical Confederate uniforms instead of the dark gray of the Germans).

You know I'm glad you point this all out because I actually just had this picture commissioned by a friend!

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^^^ Credit: https://www.deviantart.com/finerskydiver - Finerskydiver on DeviantArt

Not exactly like what you described, but hey! Anything goes really! And I'm even saying that this is what the Confederate soldiers looked like. The ones in the center and right actually have SS style inspired "runes", although they're pretty simple. The left one is just the St. Andrew Confederate cross in Freedom Party colors, while the right one is a private's chevron turned on its side. The webbing is WWII British.

Definitely like your descriptions though! Thats super detailed!
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...edom-party-guards.450965/page-2#post-17540399

^^^ Actually that's an interesting point to bring up here: What would the Freedom Party Guardsmen's insignia even look like? Would they be inspired by the SS runes or something similar but more Americanized? I like the idea of George Washington, his horse, the Southern Cross and other Confederate symbols being used in their patches decals and stuff. I mean, the SS appropriated and used Nordic runes and shit to their own ends.
 

Pangur

Donor
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...edom-party-guards.450965/page-2#post-17540399

^^^ Actually that's an interesting point to bring up here: What would the Freedom Party Guardsmen's insignia even look like? Would they be inspired by the SS runes or something similar but more Americanized? I like the idea of George Washington, his horse, the Southern Cross and other Confederate symbols being used in their patches decals and stuff. I mean, the SS appropriated and used Nordic runes and shit to their own ends.
The snag is that in the TL in question the SS dont exist so where would Featherstone get that idea from? Of the of my head I can see some sort of King Arthur rip off happening
 

Pangur

Donor
Can you elaborate? King Arthur stuff?
Not at sure what I mean TBH. Where I am coming from is that the Nazi had a thing about the whole Norse thing which I dont see to be the case with the Freedom Party and so I wondered what would they have reached for and well Arthur came to mind
 
The Freedom Party was significantly less occultist/mystical (for lack of a better term) than the SS or Nazis. They didn't have wide sweeping visions of a global conflict and the destruction/subjugation of all inferior races, they "only" wanted to "save" the Confederacy and "solve" their "black question." They didn't even want to kill all blacks, just those in the South. As such, there's no real equivalent to the Norse mythology/occultism that influenced SS ideology and markings in the Freedom Party. I'd imagine that they wouldn't have special runes aside from, perhaps, some stylized "FPG" or "FF" that stand for Freedom Party Guards and Featherston and Freedom.

Thank you! Someone else noticed this, too! Haha, I was just about to post something similar to this.

Their seal, I imagined, would be similar to the Nazi. George Washington and his horse on top and below that a Southern Cross inside a wreath of cotton, tobacco, and other "Southern crops" similar to the Nazi Eagle on top of a wreath with a Swastika inside.

Ehh… They probably wouldn't even use the old seal anymore when the Confederate government goes full Confree.

If they do keep it, it'll probably become more obscure as new symbols are created and used during Featherston's reign.
 
I just thought to keep inline with the parallelism. It seemed like the Freedomites were a lot less radical like the OTL Fascists and would at least keep some semblance of old seals/symbols.

Parallelism is very much hit and miss. More so of the latter than the former.
 
IMO Turtledove missed a ton of good opportunities with the FP. I think the anti-aristocratic bit was interesting and frankly very likely, but he missed a cool opportunity to have the Planters play out like the Junkers/industrialists in OTL Germany. Really though IMO it was more likely for the FP to have some kind of nationalist, proto-Maoist ideology similar perhaps to Ceausescu's Romania. Have them heavily emphasize the "purity" of the farmer and working off the land and the need for the nation to build it's support and strength from among the poor white yeomanry. Idolize poor white rural living, and perhaps set up programs within the Youth Corps to "educate" children into living "pure," "respectable" white lives farming. Perhaps de-emphasize cotton and other cash crops as tools of the aristocrats to keep the poor whites down and instead create initiatives to shift agricultural production towards food crops like corn, wheat, etc. They'd probably also be suspicious of urbanites and intelligentsia and chastise them as "Yankees" and not true Confederates.

On that note I'd imagine that the Freedomites would be big on creating the idea that Southern whites are a distinct ethnic group from Northern ones, something that would have more traction in TL-191 with the higher amount of Germanic immigration to the US. I see the FP arguing that Southern whites come from a "purer" Anglo-Celtic stock as opposed to the Germanic one of the North, and chastise the Northerners as money grubbing, inhospitable, militant types like the stereotypes around OTL Germans. Southern whites, meanwhile, will be idolized as the true descendants of the Founding Fathers and staying in touch with their more respectable, English customs and hospitality. I don't recall seeing this in Turtledove's work, but I find it to be pretty likely to happen considering the talk of some Southerners IOTL.

What I meant by parallelism being "hit and miss" is that I don't expect every thing to occur in TL-191 to be an exact carbon-copy of what occurred in Real-Life, but with different names. There's only so much you can accept it until you realize that there's no way that it could have happened the way Turtledove did.

I didn't expect the Confederate Freedom Party to be exactly like the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party) with the same goals, same symbols, same racial/ethnic ideology and same technology, but with a different name.

I didn't expect Jacob Featherston to be just like Adolf Hitler, with the only relevant difference being the color of their scapegoat.

I can accept the idea that some ideas, events, and technological inventions would have been inevitable even if they had not occurred as they did in Real-Life. What I don't accept is that the only difference between TL-191 and Real-Life things is just the name.

TL-191 would have been more unique and perhaps more believable if Turtledove avoided Hard Parallelism.

When writing AL, there is always a difficulty to make a balance between realistic plausibility and entertainment. Now, to be fair, there are some parallel ideas that I liked, mostly because they are still plausible. When they are not plausible, then my immersion into the story begins to disappear.

It doesn't have to be perfect; no Alternate History is.

But I do expect some kind of hard work being put into a story like TL-191 and if there are mistakes, they should be easily forgivable.

Here are some Non-parallel ideas: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/non-parallellism-in-tl-191.223629/
 
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So I've seen a lot of people go back and forth on what the Tredegar Automatic Rifle looks like. From what I can remember out it, the only thing that seemed definitive was its 25 round magazine. As for its look, well, that's been debated. Some say its basically the M14, others say its something else.

But, if anything is certain, the Freedom Party Guardsmen would most certainly be armed with them.

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^^^ Here's one interpretation you may have seen (I don't remember the source unfortunately)

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^^^ One of my personal favorite interpretations would be the ones circled here, especially the bottom one marked "Rifle No. 7 Mk. II 1947". Impractical? Sure, but it looks nice and still looks like a "Tredegar". (Also don't remember the source)

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^^^ There is, of course, the possibility that it may just be a Confederate version of the M1918 BAR. Another fav interpretation for me is that it would have a shorter barrel, kinda like Clyde Barrow's custom BAR shown here, but with a larger magazine size.

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^^^ And just for shits and giggles, although I know it was never mentioned in the novels, I think perhaps the M1941 Johnson Rifle (a TL-191 version of it) could have been produced in larger quantities than in our world. For what reason and who would make it? I don't know, but perhaps guns like this somehow can catch on in an alternate world. Who knows.

Either way, the Freedom Party Guardsmen would be armed to the teeth with some of the best weapons the Confederates could muster.
 
I also have no idea what the supposed "Griswold" submachine-gun would look like. I got a few ideas, but nothing substantial.

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^^^ It could look like an Iver Johnson M1 Carbine, but I doubt that. Cool design though either way.

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^^^ Could also just be a Reising copy too, under a different name.

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^^^ The most likely candidate would probably be the M3, but hey anything is possible.

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^^^ My fav candidate though? M2 Hyde. It looks weird and new enough to be an entirely original Confederate design.
 
I also thought about the possibility of a BAR, but the BAR was, IIRC, a heavier gun and not really practical as a rifle. I think the M14 would make the most sense considering it's American roots (as most of the other Confederate gear was based off of contemporary American equipment) and it being an actual battle rifle.

Fair point. How would make the jump to the M14 though? I'm not saying can't be done, but just how? Wouldn't a rifle like the M1 need to be made first, early on? Considering the M14's development? Or is that just irrelevant?
 
It depends. The Germans pretty much went straight from the bolt action rifles of 1939-1941 to the STG-44. There was a semi-automatic similar to the M1 but IIRC development on the STG-44 had already started before the Gewehr 43.

I'd imagine the Confederate logic (at least in Turtledove's mind) was this: we have no hope in matching the Union in manpower, we need as fast firing guns as possible. Submachine guns make up for some of that, but they really don't do much at longer ranges and aren't very accurate. Thus, it would make sense for them to begin looking as quickly as possible into faster firing rifles, especially since Featherston isn't as adverse to new technologies as Hitler was. Throw on the fact that the world's basically been in a mini-Cold War since 1863 at the earliest, 1881 at the latest then it's incredibly possible that, given the extra experience of the North American fronts, that gun technology has evolved quicker ITTL than in our own.

I mean, you technically don't need a semi-auto as an intermediate between bolt action and automatic weapons. The Russians as early as 1917 had developed an automatic weapon (the Federov Avtomat) and that was with only WW1 era bolt action rifles to pull from, not the 1920s and 1930s and the advent of submachine guns and BARs.

I see now, just thinking about our timeline's M14 development I guess.

How about pistols and anti-tank, rocket propelled launchers? I definitely remember something akin to a "stovepipe" being used by the Confederates. What do you think they would use?
 
Besides, even in open combat in the prairies/farms of Ohio and Kentucky, the stovepipe wouldn't make much sense. In open terrain like that, the infantry would have cover from artillery, other tanks, and air craft to engage enemy armor. If they're in a position where they have to defend a line of foxholes against a swarm of Yankee tanks, they're dead whether or not they have stovepipes.

Interesting! So, how open and vast is this terrain anyway? Its not like the steppes in the Ukraine of course, how large are the prairies in this area of the US? We talking good tank country or what? Can definitely imagine how wide the area is farther west when getting into the Great Plains and Texas, but what about Ohio, Tennessee, and Kentucky?

If not the stovepipes then, what would the bog standard Confederate soldier primarily rely on to combat tanks? What about the Freedom Party Guardsmen?
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...edom-party-guards.450965/page-2#post-17540399

^^^ Actually that's an interesting point to bring up here: What would the Freedom Party Guardsmen's insignia even look like? Would they be inspired by the SS runes or something similar but more Americanized? I like the idea of George Washington, his horse, the Southern Cross and other Confederate symbols being used in their patches decals and stuff. I mean, the SS appropriated and used Nordic runes and shit to their own ends.

http://insignias.wikia.com/wiki/Aggressor_(US_Armed_Forces) - one idea that I've played around with is using some of the ideas employed for the Aggressor Forces in various US Army exercises as a basis for Confederate States uniform symbolism (combined with elements from CS insignia of the Civil War); I do, however, tend to think that Freedom Party would be rather less "mythic" than that of the Nazi Party, due to Featherston's general disinterest in flashiness and the lack of an equivalent to Himmler & all of his "Ghostapo" weirdness.

One tends to imagine the Freedom Party Guards using a minimalist/stripped-back version of pre-existing Confederate insignia (possibly even a variant on US Army insignia as a hint at some twisted "Can't beat 'em, join 'em" mindset).


What do you think the uniforms, equipment, and weapons of Featherston's Freedom Party Guards looked like?

For the record I tend to imagine that the Freedom Party Guards would tend to wear uniforms very reminiscent of Confederate States policemen, whole carrying firepower more reminiscent of the Army; I tend to see them as justified by the need for a Police Force that could operate on an Interstate basis (one imagines that, given the States Rights obsession of the Confederacy, very few peacekeeping organisations other than the CS Army would have had the lawful authority to cross State Borders prior to this) and validated by a line of "We're ALL Freedom Party (or Else)" rhetoric (not to mention a line of argument that suggests all these Stalwarts need SOMETHING to do and if they're not chasing banditos, guerrillas, radicals and other criminals then the Devil might find work for all these idle fists).

With that in mind one imagines that the Party Guards might use some variation on POLICE, rather than Army insignia (since both Party Guards and CSA policemen, at least in urban police forces, are described as using grey uniforms).


In the front cover of Blood and Iron, there is a symbol of literal Grey Eagle that represents either the Confederate Freedom Party or the Confederacy.
I've always been a fan of including an alligator or a pair of alligators alongside the eagle, if not a complete replacement, as the National Animal of the Confederacy/Confederate Freedom Party.

Given how strongly the Eagle-and-crossed-swords is associated with the United States of America, especially in the Remembrance Era, I would expect the Confederate States to avoid featuring that particular Bird of Ill Omen in their National Symbolism; given the presence of a mounted George Washington on their great seal it's quite possible that the Horse/thoroughbred/mustang might be used as their mascot (given it's association with the untamed spirit and rural life).

When it comes to a specifically Freedom Party mascot, however, I think we can safely say that there's only one surefire winner: https://www.collinsflags.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Gadsden-Flag-for-contest.gif - aggressive, sharply defiant and fundamentally poisonous what could more perfectly symbolise Featherston's Stalwarts? (the fact this is also a flag strongly associated with the American Revolution and more to the point with a South Carolina politician during same, would also tend to count in its favour).

One also vaguely recalls reading somewhere that, during the American Civil War, some areas of the South took to using the phoenix as a symbol (on the understanding that it was easier to turn a US Eagle into a phoenix than any other sort of bird), although one cannot clearly recall which book that tidbit happened to come from - having said that a Phoenix arising from the flames WOULD make a very logical element of symbolism for the Freedom Party to play with, after the Great War (the fact that such a symbol would also have a nicely double-edged symbolism, given the hellfire Featherston leads his Confederacy into on more than one level, makes it extra appropriate).
 
A Confederate Gestapo would be interesting to see honestly! I think Clarence Potter is part of an intelligence gathering agency in the Confederacy right? Perhaps the department had a name? They'd need a name of course. Overseers reminds me of the Fallout universe's overseers.

By the way, I've wondered before what the Confederate equivalent to MI5 or MI6 might be called and would like to suggest BUREAU 2 (Bu2) or BUREAU 5 (Bu5); this is derived from the structure of the Grand Quartier Général (the French Supreme Command during the First World War), which one can imagine would be mirrored during the Great War; I like the name "Bureau *" as it has a properly euphemistic ring without being entirely nondescript (It's also a name that inherently poses questions "Bureau for WHAT?" "Second/Fifth Bureau of how many?" that seems suitable for a Secret Police-type organisation ... especially if nobody bothers to actually answer those questions, as a general rule).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Quartier_Général_(1914–1919)#Origins_and_structure - you can find my original inspiration in the table of organisation at the bottom of this page ("Bureau for Special Services" also has a ring to it, but may be a little TOO on-the-nose for a "technically not THE Nazis but pretty Nasty" sort of secret police).

I tend to imagine Bureau 2/5 (one cannot quite decide which number to go with - Deuxieme Bureau is actually the French umbrella term for their Intelligence services so I'm reluctant to use the direct translation, but have to admit that "Bureau 2" has a better ring than "Bureau 5") as a Military Intelligence organisation that was increasingly turned on the Confederate Population between the Wars (as the Confederate States General Staff colluded with the Whig Establishment to rebuild the Southern War Machine and attempted to settle down a population that had grown violently restive after the Whigs lost the Great War), being co-opted by the Featherston Administration when "The Sarge" entered the Grey House and mostly focussed himself on purging Radical Liberals rather than the bureaucracy.
 
Given how strongly the Eagle-and-crossed-swords is associated with the United States of America, especially in the Remembrance Era, I would expect the Confederate States to avoid featuring that particular Bird of Ill Omen in their National Symbolism; given the presence of a mounted George Washington on their great seal it's quite possible that the Horse/thoroughbred/mustang might be used as their mascot (given it's association with the untamed spirit and rural life).

When it comes to a specifically Freedom Party mascot, however, I think we can safely say that there's only one surefire winner: https://www.collinsflags.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Gadsden-Flag-for-contest.gif - aggressive, sharply defiant and fundamentally poisonous what could more perfectly symbolise Featherston's Stalwarts? (the fact this is also a flag strongly associated with the American Revolution and more to the point with a South Carolina politician during same, would also tend to count in its favour).

One also vaguely recalls reading somewhere that, during the American Civil War, some areas of the South took to using the phoenix as a symbol (on the understanding that it was easier to turn a US Eagle into a phoenix than any other sort of bird), although one cannot clearly recall which book that tidbit happened to come from - having said that a Phoenix arising from the flames WOULD make a very logical element of symbolism for the Freedom Party to play with, after the Great War (the fact that such a symbol would also have a nicely double-edged symbolism, given the hellfire Featherston leads his Confederacy into on more than one level, makes it extra appropriate).

I probably wouldn't use a horse as a symbol for the Confederacy. It's not scary/intimidating enough.

Using the Gadsden Flag would be a "better" symbol, alongside a snake for a Confederate National Animal, but I view it to be "too obviously evil". There should be some hint of subtleness.

The Phoenix would be too "way out there". No one except the small, educated ruling class of Confederates would even know what a Phoenix is.

Oh yeah! I saw that picture on DA. Honestly that is probably the most accurate representation of any Freedom party uniform we are going to get. Its alluded to multiple times so its hard not to miss the description. Now that you mention it I'd be open to the idea of the "clenched fist" being a kind of secondary or unofficial symbol used on armbands by the Freedom Party Guardsmen or Stalwarts. If not then possibly used on a collar patch in a similar fashion as an "SS" style rune.

A Confederate Gestapo would be interesting to see honestly! I think Clarence Potter is part of an intelligence gathering agency in the Confederacy right? Perhaps the department had a name? They'd need a name of course. Overseers reminds me of the Fallout universe's overseers.

I used the example of a clenched fist to symbolize the Confederate Freedom Salute (aka, Nazi Salute) as an analogy, not as a literal symbol on official Confederate Freedom medals, clothing, etc. In TL-191 after the end of the Second Great War, if you were fist-pumping the sky while yelling out "Freedom!" multiple times, you would be in big trouble.

I chose the name "Overseers" as a call-back to the days of Confederate slavery, when Blacks were under watchful supervision.
 
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