TL-191: Far Afield - The Confederate and Yankee Presence in China, 1862-1944

Actually Sun Yat-Sen would be a rather interesting figure and major factor for China in Timeline-191. Consider that he is widely considered the father of modern China and the revolution in both the Mainland and Tiawan.
Sun_Yat_Sen_portrait.jpg


Since I doubt he'd have gotten his start in the sandwich isles like OTL he'd still most likely be influenced by American Democracy in Timeline 191. A Democracy that would heavily dominated by the Remembrance Movement and the alliance with Germany at the time.
 
Actually Sun Yat-Sen would be a rather interesting figure and major factor for China in Timeline-191. Consider that he is widely considered the father of modern China and the revolution in both the Mainland and Tiawan.

Since I doubt he'd have gotten his start in the sandwich isles like OTL he'd still most likely be influenced by American Democracy in Timeline 191. A Democracy that would heavily dominated by the Remembrance Movement and the alliance with Germany at the time.

Right, because Hawaii (Sandwich Islands) were under the control of the British at the time in the timeline. So its very likely he got his education in the United States, hopping on a boat to visit his brother. He'd most likely be getting off the boat in San Francisco, were he'd attend a school there.

... Wait a minute. Wait a hot minute here! If he did receive an education in the United States, then by 1881-1882 he'd be only in his teens! 15 to 16 years of age!

And if he went to the US, most likely through San Francisco, then that means he may have been in the city when the British bombarded, blockaded, and even landed Royal Marines in the city!
 
Right, because Hawaii (Sandwich Islands) were under the control of the British at the time in the timeline. So its very likely he got his education in the United States, hopping on a boat to visit his brother. He'd most likely be getting off the boat in San Francisco, were he'd attend a school there.

... Wait a minute. Wait a hot minute here! If he did receive an education in the United States, then by 1881-1882 he'd be only in his teens! 15 to 16 years of age!

And if he went to the US, most likely through San Francisco, then that means he may have been in the city when the British bombarded, blockaded, and even landed Royal Marines in the city!
Well that certainly has a lot of potential!
 
Actually the United States may actually be more open to Chinese Immigrants during the years leading up to the First Great War compared to OTL. Not out of any sense of progressivism or egalitarianism but out of a desire to get has much manpower as possible to crush Canada and the Confederate States.
 
Actually the United States may actually be more open to Chinese Immigrants during the years leading up to the First Great War compared to OTL. Not out of any sense of progressivism or egalitarianism but out of a desire to get has much manpower as possible to crush Canada and the Confederate States.

Right. So, the Army would take on Chinese recruits or hire Chinese workers as laborers behind the lines or for other duties in the Army, so as to free up white recruits for combat roles. Its very cynical and still pretty racist, but this would probably be the extent to the which the US Army is willing to take on Chinese at this time... at least during the Great War, from 1914-1917.

By the Second Great War that could change. In OTL, Chinese Americans were able to serve in the Armed Forces, in the navy, air force, and army. Quite a few saw combat too. In TL-191, we may see Chinese Americans serve more frequently than in the Great War.
 
You know I'd imagine that the US would have pretty positive relations with the Republic of China during the interwar and post war years. With the Union hoping that China could be a potential counter to Japan and Russia. Which could lead to the Republic being better equipped to fight the Japanese thanks to combined German-american aid.
Right. So, the Army would take on Chinese recruits or hire Chinese workers as laborers behind the lines or for other duties in the Army, so as to free up white recruits for combat roles. Its very cynical and still pretty racist, but this would probably be the extent to the which the US Army is willing to take on Chinese at this time... at least during the Great War, from 1914-1917.

By the Second Great War that could change. In OTL, Chinese Americans were able to serve in the Armed Forces, in the navy, air force, and army. Quite a few saw combat too. In TL-191, we may see Chinese Americans serve more frequently than in the Great War.
I have a feeling that plenty of Army commanders would be more than happy to use Chinese American recruits to simply overwhelm Confederate forces with superior numbers. Actually I could the first Chinese American recruits seeing combat for the first time during the second Mormon revolt.
 
I initially stated that I did not envision the CSA being involved in the affairs of Asia, but I decided to be more lenient for now and include some TL-191-inspired images.

Boxer Rebellion in TL-191

Siege_of_Peking,_Boxer_Rebellion 4.jpg
Confederate troops during the Siege of Peking, June 20 – August 14, 1900

Troops_of_the_Eight_nations_alliance_1900.jpg

Troops of the Nine-Nation Alliance of 1900 in China. Left to Right: Confederate States (some wore pith helmets or slouch hats), United States, Russia, India (representing the British Empire at the time), Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan.

BoxerAmericanTroops.jpg

Confederate Troops during the Boxer Rebellion


british and confederate siege 2.jpg
British and Confederates charge toward the Imperial Palace
 
@Alterwright you know I think that the federalist movement it may be more successful in this timeline compared to the KMT due to lack of foreign support for any real revolutionary movement in the form of a socialist country
 
I initially stated that I did not envision the CSA being involved in the affairs of Asia, but I decided to be more lenient for now and include some TL-191-inspired images.

Boxer Rebellion in TL-191

View attachment 463710 Confederate troops during the Siege of Peking, June 20 – August 14, 1900

Troops_of_the_Eight_nations_alliance_1900.jpg

Troops of the Nine-Nation Alliance of 1900 in China. Left to Right: Confederate States (some wore pith helmets or slouch hats), United States, Russia, India (representing the British Empire at the time), Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan.

BoxerAmericanTroops.jpg

Confederate Troops during the Boxer Rebellion

View attachment 463717
British and Confederates charge toward the Imperial Palace
Heheh. Well, I am all for this actually. Perhaps I can revisit this then. Flesh out my thoughts on this a little more.
 
You mean the Chinese Federalist movement? Can you elaborate?
yes the Chinese Federalist movement . chen and co were equally radical as the socialist and the KMT but compared to the letter two he has less need for foreign support to the fact that he always prefers negotiation before trying to use force and in OTL Soviet recognition of the southern government was important for the funds,military equipment as well as training as well as the founding of Whampoa Military Academy And the reorganization of KMT into a Leninist style party. there's also the fact that Chen Jiongming May be easier to support then the radical anti-imperialist KMT
 
yes the Chinese Federalist movement . chen and co were equally radical as the socialist and the KMT but compared to the letter two he has less need for foreign support to the fact that he always prefers negotiation before trying to use force and in OTL Soviet recognition of the southern government was important for the funds,military equipment as well as training as well as the founding of Whampoa Military Academy And the reorganization of KMT into a Leninist style party. there's also the fact that Chen Jiongming May be easier to support then the radical anti-imperialist KMT
Who would it gain support from then? As far as TL-191 goes, there is no real left-leaning country in the world. Unless you mean to say that it rises to power on its own.
 
I feel like this timeline United States is a more natural fit for supporting Chen Jiongming over sun
How so? While I do believe the US would have some business interests in China, I am curious as to what would interest them in supporting a faction in China.

390EEFEC-BAEC-4906-B2E4-B20E635EE45F.png


^^^ ——— As I understand it, Chen Jiongming was a revolutionary federalist that sought to make China a democratic federal republic, and a supporter of Sun Yat Sen. It is hinted at that China is in chaos in this timeline, and the Japanese are involved there as well. What would compel the US to support his faction? He’d likely be a warlord by this time.
 
and a supporter of Sun Yat Sen. It is hinted at that China is in chaos in this timeline, and the Japanese are involved there as well. What would compel the US to support his faction? He’d likely be a warlord by this time.
consider this in OTL sun had a breaking up chen that Led to the June 16 Incident over the weather to have a negotiated reunification or a reunification by force as exemplified in the OTL Northern expedition as such it's easy for me to believe that the US would support chen over sun to support a more united force to counter Japanese influence versus a country with two opposing central government and being a warlord is a complicated thing he was officially just governor of Guangdong But also had command of the provincial army of Guangdong he's also more palatable considering the fact he supports local elections
 
consider this in OTL sun had a breaking up chen that Led to the June 16 Incident over the weather to have a negotiated reunification or a reunification by force as exemplified in the OTL Northern expedition as such it's easy for me to believe that the US would support chen over sun to support a more united force to counter Japanese influence versus a country with two opposing central government and being a warlord is a complicated thing he was officially just governor of Guangdong But also had command of the provincial army of Guangdong he's also more palatable considering the fact he supports local elections
Say if the US does support him. When and how?
 
10F4EFFC-B9EC-473D-A5C2-D106B77EB36E.jpeg

^^^——— Confederate marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, pose for a picture in the courtyard of the Confederate Embassy in Peking, 1912.
 
Say if the US does support him. When and how?
sometime around 1922 I am imagine. how will probably be through a shipment of weapons and advisors. in the weapons case you have to consider the fact there may not be arms embargo compared to OTL and probably some help for industrialization like technical advisors
 

JWQ

Gone Fishin'
I dont think the confederacy would have much interest in the far east; however, if southern California had been allowed to separate from the union such as the people wished to, then the confederacy would have happily been able to crack open the orient trade and send missionaries to the far east. The CSA would cooperate under the Uk and french support and, on occasion, the USA. The south would be unwilling to provoke the union in a region of little interest to the confederacy.
civil war
In 1861 or 1862, had the confederacy refrained from attacking the union forts, this would have probably given the cotton states enough time to accept southern California secession just as they accepted Arizona's separation from the union. Instead, the south is desperate to have allies and soldiers, including immigrants, come to their new republic. Thus, the south would recruit immigrant workers from china, japan, and elsewhere not just immigrant workers, but immigrant soldiers/mercenaries.

Until hostilities began, the south had the means to pay these far east soldiers through free immigration with their families, rice, free food, guns and money until the war began. The problem that makes this unlikely is the distance, and really china is plagued with rebellions during this time, so supposedly Japan could fill the demand. After all, the old union government forcefully opened up Japan by force by rick perry. These archers, ninjas, and melee soldiers could have experimented with supporting troops with the main Confederate army. Jefferson Davis, considering he wished to experiment with camels, I could see him experimenting with longbows and special troops in the age of muskets

keep in mind Japan hasn't seen action in over 100 years as the ninjas and other warrior professions were teetering on the verge of being extinct. Japans Warriors classes would take a jump at finally getting a chance to see the glory of battle and act as mercenaries once again.
 
Last edited:
Top