TL-191: After the End

lothaw

Awesome update. Seems like things are coming to a boil in the Pacific. Japan seems to be poking at every major power looking for some weakness.

General Ishii would be advised to wait until he has his own superbombs though. Keeping the lid on China, poking at both the US and Germany's alliances and taking on Russia in Siberia all at the same time might be a bit much even for this wanked out Japan.

I love all the smaller details like the skeleton being discovered and the Ottomans economic expansion is awesome. It's a very good TL.

I can actually see Joshua Blackford becoming Secretary of Defense to a Socialist administration with his interest in the military he displayed before he got conscripted. I'd think people would remember him more for being Hosea Blackford, the President's, son more than Flora's though, even if she was a viewpoint char.
 

CT23

Awesome update! :)

Out of curiosity DBE, you really think Josh Blackford will be a Democrat instead of a Socialist?

Also am looking forward to more developments on fusion technology (I believe the U.S. project was called Thor) and the coming war with Japan.
 
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area11

area11

Have added Puerto Rico to Spain and Corsica to France also changed Indochina from a part of the Japanese empire to just a puppet as you mentioned in the update.
TL191 After the end UCS.png

TL191 After the end UCS.png
 

Archangel

Great update, David!:)
TTL Portuguese Africa proceeds in a realistic manner (hopefully it will be a better place ITTL:)).
 
Hawkeye

Hawkeye

area11 said:
Have added Puerto Rico to Spain and Corsica to France also changed Indochina from a part of the Japanese empire to just a puppet as you mentioned in the update.
Click to expand...

Change Nigeria's eastern boarder. That was entirely my fault.

And nice post Dave.
 

Grimm Reaper

Actually German lost all of her Pacific colonies in WWI so what would have been Papua New Guinea should be either Australian or Japanese now.

No, it made absolutely no sense that Germany let that happen but a rational role for Japan simply didn't fit in the series.
 

Mister Abbadon

thank you for putting my doom-saying to rest, I am curious what will happen after the cold war is over, but I'm assumeing that the US is going to emerge victorious am I wrong?
 

Alexander Hamilton

Mr. Arkhangelsk,

If you are still looking for some candidates to fill the Predidency between 1869 and 1877 may I suggest the following?
1. John Sherman. The older brother of William T. Sherman (who in this timeline is a Colonel stuck in garrison duty on the West Coast), John was a Senator from Ohio for many years and was often mentioned as a candidate for higher office or the Cabinet. In OTL John's political career was independent of his brother's success so he might have success in TL-191.
2. John "Black Jack" Logan. A Douglas Democrat in 1860 representing Southern Illinois ("Little Egypt") in the House, Logan was a strong War Democrat and was made a general by Lincoln. He actually developed into a competent general and, more interestingly, moved from being a racist Democrat to a pro-Freedmen Republican after the War in OTL. Always ambitious, I could see Black Jack returning to Illinois after the end of the War of Southern Independence and resuming his career as a Democrat.
3. John Geary. In OTL, Mayor of San Francisco during the Gold Rush, appointed governor of Kansas, War Democrat, Union Army General and GOP Governor of Pennsylvania. In TL-191 he would probably stay a Democrat and his reputation for standing up to "Border Ruffians" in Kansas might help him in a USA recovering from its loss in the War of Southern Independence.

AH
 

JimmyRibbitt

lothaw said:
Awesome update. Seems like things are coming to a boil in the Pacific. Japan seems to be poking at every major power looking for some weakness.
Click to expand...


I am wondering if there will be a war in this scenario between the United States and the Japanese Empire
 

Arkhangelsk

Alexander Hamilton said:
Mr. Arkhangelsk,

If you are still looking for some candidates to fill the Predidency between 1869 and 1877 may I suggest the following?
1. John Sherman. The older brother of William T. Sherman (who in this timeline is a Colonel stuck in garrison duty on the West Coast), John was a Senator from Ohio for many years and was often mentioned as a candidate for higher office or the Cabinet. In OTL John's political career was independent of his brother's success so he might have success in TL-191.
2. John "Black Jack" Logan. A Douglas Democrat in 1860 representing Southern Illinois ("Little Egypt") in the House, Logan was a strong War Democrat and was made a general by Lincoln. He actually developed into a competent general and, more interestingly, moved from being a racist Democrat to a pro-Freedmen Republican after the War in OTL. Always ambitious, I could see Black Jack returning to Illinois after the end of the War of Southern Independence and resuming his career as a Democrat.
3. John Geary. In OTL, Mayor of San Francisco during the Gold Rush, appointed governor of Kansas, War Democrat, Union Army General and GOP Governor of Pennsylvania. In TL-191 he would probably stay a Democrat and his reputation for standing up to "Border Ruffians" in Kansas might help him in a USA recovering from its loss in the War of Southern Independence.

AH
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the possible canidates AH, I've been reading up on these guys to see where exactly they may be on the list. Geary, if elected President, might fit to serve from 1869-1873...according to Wiki, he dies one month before the end of the term from a heart attack...I'm not sure if butterflies would allow him to live several more months as he can serve the remainder of the term and perhaps decline a second term due to ailing health...

Logan (if POTUS) strikes me as succeeding Geary, serving from 1873-1877...if TL 191 Logan is similar to OTL and runs for Congress after the WoS, then I can't think of any reason he wouldn't consider the Presidency...

As for the people you recommended earlier from Blaine to Roosevelt, I figured both McKinley and Hanna may be POTUS succeeding Reed...in what order I haven't figured out...

As for Clark, I feel he could also be a possibility from 1902-1913...or for all we know, maybe he serves after Blaine is voted out...also, according to Wiki he moved to Missouri in 1875 in OTL...perhaps he stays a little ways north in TTL, we never know...

What do you guys think? I want to make a hypothetical list with the possibilities listed above...but I have work in the morning so I'll do it tomorrow :p
 

bguy

Donor
Arkhangelsk said:
What do you guys think? I want to make a hypothetical list with the possibilities listed above...but I have work in the morning so I'll do it tomorrow :p
Click to expand...

Hanna seems a reasonable choice. A Pro-big business wheeler-dealer that would have done well in Remembrance dominated United States.

Champ Clark was born in Kentucky. It's more likely he would end up as President of the CSA.

As for pre-Second Mexican War presidents, remember that these were the presidents that let the Confederacy continuously push around the United States. It's hard to see a man like John Logan allowing the US to be so thoroughly cowed so as an alternative let me suggest two candidates who would be much more dovish to the CSA.

James Bayard from Delaware. A Senator at the time of the Civil War who called for letting the South secede peacefully. He would almost certainly push for peaceful relations with an independent Confederacy.

George Pendleton from Ohio. In OTL he was the leading Peace Democrat during the Civil War and eventually ran as McClellan's VP candidate. Like Bayard he seems like he would be a President who would never stand up to the Confederates.
 

Arkhangelsk

bguy said:
Hanna seems a reasonable choice. A Pro-big business wheeler-dealer that would have done well in Remembrance dominated United States.

Champ Clark was born in Kentucky. It's more likely he would end up as President of the CSA.

As for pre-Second Mexican War presidents, remember that these were the presidents that let the Confederacy continuously push around the United States. It's hard to see a man like John Logan allowing the US to be so thoroughly cowed so as an alternative let me suggest two candidates who would be much more dovish to the CSA.

James Bayard from Delaware. A Senator at the time of the Civil War who called for letting the South secede peacefully. He would almost certainly push for peaceful relations with an independent Confederacy.

George Pendleton from Ohio. In OTL he was the leading Peace Democrat during the Civil War and eventually ran as McClellan's VP candidate. Like Bayard he seems like he would be a President who would never stand up to the Confederates.
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Hm...point taken, I looked up both Bayard and Pendleton on the very useful Wiki, and they do indeed seem to be good options, especially Pendleton, who in OTL ran as McClellan's VP in 1864.

I've been trying to find someone who would have most likely defeated Blaine in 1884...I'm thinking about Grover Cleveland (incidentally enough they ran against each other in 1884 in OTL)...but (assuming Cleveland is more or less the same guy as OTL in 1884, would the Democrats have become too conservative by the time of the election for Cleveland to gain the nomination? What do you guys think?
 
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Arkhangelsk

Here's a new list of US Presidents based on the discussions we've had. Thanks for the insight guys, let me know what you think.


1. George Washington (I-VA): April 30, 1789-March 4, 1797
2. John Adams (F-MA): March 4, 1797-March 4, 1801
3. Thomas Jefferson (DR-VA): March 4, 1801-March 4, 1809
4. James Madison (DR-VA): March 4, 1809-March 4, 1817
5. James Monroe (DR-VA): March 4, 1817-March 4, 1825
6. John Quincy Adams (DR-MA): March 4, 1825-March 4, 1829
7. Andrew Jackson (D-TN): March 4, 1829-March 4, 1837
8. Martin Van Buren (D-NY): March 4, 1837-March 4, 1841
9. William Henry Harrison (W-OH): March 4, 1841-April 4, 1841
10. John Tyler, Jr. (W-VA): April 4, 1841-March 4, 1845
11. James Knox Polk (D-TN): March 4, 1845-March 4, 1849
12. Zachary Taylor (W-LA): March 4, 1849-July 9, 1850
13. Millard Fillmore (W-NY): July 9, 1850-March 4, 1853
14. Franklin Pierce (D-NH): March 4, 1853-March 4, 1857
15. James Buchanan (D-PA): March 4, 1857-March 4, 1861
16. Abraham Lincoln (R-IL): March 4, 1861-March 4, 1865 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][1]
17. Horatio Seymour (D-NY): March 4, 1865-March 4, 1869
18. George Hunt Pendleton (D-OH): March 4, 1869-March 4, 1873[2]
19. James Asheton Bayard Jr. (D-DE): March 4, 1873-March 4, 1877[2]
20. Samuel Jones Tilden (D-NY): March 4. 1877-March 4, 1881
21. James Gillespie Blaine (R-ME): March 4, 1881-March 4, 1885
22. Stephen Grover Cleveland (D-NY): March 4, 1885-March 4, 1889[2]
23. Alfred Thayer Mahan (D-NY): March 4, 1889-March 4, 1897
24. Thomas Brackett Reed (D-ME): March 4, 1897-December 7, 1902
25. Marcus Alonzo Hanna (D-OH): December 7, 1902-February 15, 1904[2]
26. William McKinley Jr. (D-OH): February 15, 1904-March 4, 1909[2]
27. Elihu Root (D-NY): March 4, 1909-March 4, 1913[2]
28. Theodore Roosevelt (D-NY): March 4, 1913-March 4, 1921
29. Upton Sinclair, Jr. (S-NJ): March 4, 1921-March 4, 1929
30. Hosea Blackford (S-DA): March 4, 1929-March 4, 1933
31. Herbert Hoover (D-CA): February 1, 1933-February 1, 1937
32. Alfred Emanuel Smith Jr. (S-NY): February 1, 1937-March 27, 1942[3]
33. Charles W. La Follette (S-WI): March 27, 1942-February 1, 1945
34. Thomas Edmund Dewey (D-NY): February 1, 1945-February 1, 1953
35. Harry S. Truman (D-MO): February 1, 1953-February 1, 1961
36. Hubert Horatio Humphrey Jr. (S-MN): February 1, 1961-

Independent
Federalist
Democratic-Republican
Democratic
Whig
Republican
Socialist

[1] President at the time of PoD
[2] Presidents recommended by members to complete list.
[3] Actual date of death uncertain...I'm just nitpicky when it comes to leaving it without a precise date :p
 

lothaw

JimmyRibbitt said:
I am wondering if there will be a war in this scenario between the United States and the Japanese Empire
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. Seems to me Japan's trying to pick a fight with Russia, Germany and the US all at the same time, while trying to hold the lid down on China. Without superbombs to boot.

Seems to me they'd be wiser if they ignored Germany, they really don't have anything worth going to war over in the Pacific anyways, waited until they had a viable nuclear program, then take on the US.

If they beat the US, that will leave them a clear path to Australia, New Zealand and it'll take out Russia's main benefactor. Not sure they'd beat the US anyways. A nuclear Pacific War would be a scary prospect though.

Of course Japanese military leaders OTL don't have a track record for being smart.
 
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